I have a Schwinn Frontier with front suspention that I bought in '01 that I have just gotten
interested in riding very much. I just ordered clipless pedals from Nashbar and gloves, and I know I
need slick or semi-slick tires for my riding style. My problem is that my hands go numb and my
prostate gland hurts after a few miles of riding. I have read all the posts about sizing and my next
stop may be the LBS, but here is my question. Shouldn't we know the ergonomics of saddles by now?
Haven't horsemen found that tight fitting jeans without underwear were better for long rides? Why is
it necessary for us to wear so much padding when a horse can bust your gonads or give you saddle
sores? What was the opinion a century ago about horse sizing and saddles, and how can this help us?

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 06:50:06 GMT, "MiRaGe" <mi_rayge@knotyahoo.com> may have said:

> What was the opinion a century ago about horse
> sizing and saddles, and how can this help us?

1. You don't have to pedal a horse.

2. The back of a horse is a lot wider than any bike.

3. The motion that a horse makes when being ridden is unlike any that a bike will make.

4. The riding position for a horse is either semi-crouching in the stirrups (thoroughbred racing)
or seated rather erect (most other riding) rather than the leaning-forward-seated postures of
most forms of cycling.

In other words, there's not much that will translate between horse riding and bike riding.
Motorcycle experience is also substantially irrelevant; the posture there is different as well, and
the stresses and vibratory issues are largely of a nature not found on bicycles.

Bike seats with prostate cutouts exist; opinions as to their value and/or necessity are as
individual as the riders who do or don't use them. Hand and wrist numbness may be a matter of fit or
of riding style; sometimes a change in one, the other, or both is needed.

As for apparel, I have become convinced that one rider's perfect setup is quite likely to be the
bane of another's existence. You really have to decide what's right for you on the basis of what
works for you.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy. Words processed in a facility that
contains nuts.

MiRaGe wrote:

> I have a Schwinn Frontier with front suspention that I bought in '01 that I have just gotten
> interested in riding very much. I just ordered clipless pedals from Nashbar and gloves, and I know
> I need slick or semi-slick tires for my riding style. My problem is that my hands go numb and my
> prostate gland hurts after a few miles of riding. I have read all the posts about sizing and my
> next stop may be the LBS, but here is my question. Shouldn't we know the ergonomics of saddles by
> now? Haven't horsemen found that tight fitting jeans without underwear were better for long rides?
> Why is it necessary for us to wear so much padding when a horse can bust your gonads or give you
> saddle sores? What was the opinion a century ago about horse sizing and saddles, and how can this
> help us?

Picture in your mind's eye a triathlete . The rider is well ahead of the pedals, back nearly level
to the ground and weight distributed well forward with a good amount of weight on the arms. Thigh
clearance is critical and a saddle which bounces is undesirable.

Now recall a high-handlebar commuter. The handlebars are well above the saddle, the bars curve well
back behind the short stem and the saddle itself is not nearly as high as yours, proportionally. For
this rider nearly all the weight is on the saddle and thigh clearance is not critical at all, due to
the attitude of the pelvis. As a matter of fact, anythng soft and forgiving in the saddle is quite
desirable because every little bump would be felt through a low firm saddle.

Now you see why there are so very many saddles. Besides people being wider/narrower specifically at
the ischia, riding position, riding style (rpms) and fitness all play a part in saddle selection.
There's a finely incremented continuum of width, material and shape, saddles with holes and without,
various cover materials and even seatposts with elastomers built in.

Visit a competent LBS which can listen and advise- with the understanding that you may exchange
until a suitable seat is found. Suggesting a saddle in absentia is a fool's errand.

Those with blanket prescriptions ("all women need this one", "all triathletes need that one") cannot
be both competent and honest.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article <yShwb.17652$Rk5.13667@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "MiRaGe"
<mi_rayge@knotyahoo.com> wrote:

> I have a Schwinn Frontier with front suspention that I bought in '01 that I have just gotten
> interested in riding very much. I just ordered clipless pedals from Nashbar and gloves, and I know
> I need slick or semi-slick tires for my riding style. My problem is that my hands go numb and my
> prostate gland hurts after a few miles of riding. I have read all the posts about sizing and my
> next stop may be the LBS, but here is my question. Shouldn't we know the ergonomics of saddles by
> now? Haven't horsemen found that tight fitting jeans without underwear were better for long rides?
> Why is it necessary for us to wear so much padding when a horse can bust your gonads or give you
> saddle sores? What was the opinion a century ago about horse sizing and saddles, and how can this
> help us?

Werehatrack has ably addressed the bikes vs. horses consideration in his post.

We do know the ergonomics of saddles nowadays, and the short answer is that the differences between
men and women, plus in-gender physiological differences, mean that no one saddle fits everyone.

I have had several saddles that made me numb after very short rides, and despite all attempts to
adjust their position. Both were very soft and thickly padded, and did horrible things to me.

My preferred saddle is a hard, flat, narrow racing model I found in a bargain bin for $15. I have
also had good results with a slightly more padded Bianchi saddle. The former saddle is so hard that
a riding buddy of mine finds it unrideable (which is why he traded me even for his, and got a nice
(but unusable by me) suede Pinarello saddle back).

--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

About that hand numbness- as a sufferer of carpal tunnel syndrome, it started as hand numbness! The
most effective advice given me was to keep the wrist straight. This is hard to do as most folks make
a shelf of the palm by bending the wrist. Unfortunatly this compresses the median nerve and degrades
it. On road bikes, hooking the thumb on the hoods works for me along with an aero bar set for
comfort: high and wide. MTBs were harder and not completely sucessful, but a 20 deg. sweepback and
approx. 10 deg. down turn mounted seat high allows for 2hr. rides. Treasure your hands! Tom

--
Bruni Bicycles "Where art meets science" brunibicycles.com
410.426.3420 Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:rcousine-282CA4.00074924112003@morgoth.sfu.ca...
> In article <yShwb.17652$Rk5.13667@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "MiRaGe"
> <mi_rayge@knotyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I have a Schwinn Frontier with front suspention that I bought in '01
that I
> > have just gotten interested in riding very much. I just ordered clipless pedals from Nashbar and
> > gloves, and I know I need slick or semi-slick
tires
> > for my riding style. My problem is that my hands go numb and my prostate gland hurts after a few
> > miles of riding. I have read all the posts about sizing and my next stop may be the LBS, but
> > here is my question.
Shouldn't
> > we know the ergonomics of saddles by now? Haven't horsemen found that
tight
> > fitting jeans without underwear were better for long rides? Why is it necessary for us to wear
> > so much padding when a horse can bust your
gonads
> > or give you saddle sores? What was the opinion a century ago about horse sizing and saddles, and
> > how can this help us?
>
> Werehatrack has ably addressed the bikes vs. horses consideration in his post.
>
> We do know the ergonomics of saddles nowadays, and the short answer is that the differences
> between men and women, plus in-gender physiological differences, mean that no one saddle fits
> everyone.
>
> I have had several saddles that made me numb after very short rides, and despite all attempts to
> adjust their position. Both were very soft and thickly padded, and did horrible things to me.
>
> My preferred saddle is a hard, flat, narrow racing model I found in a bargain bin for $15. I have
> also had good results with a slightly more padded Bianchi saddle. The former saddle is so hard
> that a riding buddy of mine finds it unrideable (which is why he traded me even for his, and got a
> nice (but unusable by me) suede Pinarello saddle back).
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

In article <yShwb.17652$Rk5.13667@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "MiRaGe"
<mi_rayge@knotyahoo.com> writes:

>I have a Schwinn Frontier with front suspention that I bought in '01 that I have just gotten
>interested in riding very much. I just ordered clipless pedals from Nashbar and gloves, and I know
>I need slick or semi-slick tires for my riding style. My problem is that my hands go numb and my
>prostate gland hurts after a few miles of riding. I have read all the posts about

How do you know that it is your prostrate that hurts? The thing, as most men over 40 know all too
well, is well hiden and protected.

>sizing and my next stop may be the LBS, but here is my question. Shouldn't we know the ergonomics
>of saddles by now? Haven't horsemen found that tight fitting jeans without underwear were better
>for long rides? Why is it necessary for us to wear so much padding when a horse can bust your
>gonads or give you saddle sores? What was the opinion a century ago about horse sizing and saddles,
>and how can this help us?

Tight jeans (as in denim) with no underwear? Sounds like torture.

Yes we do know a lot about saddle ergonomics, but everyone is different so what works for me won't
necessarily work for you.

Tom Gibb <TBGibb@aol.com

"Werehatrack" <rault00@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote in message
news:0fb3sv05heu24gvglb5picopvb1sgnr7fg@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 06:50:06 GMT, "MiRaGe" <mi_rayge@knotyahoo.com> may have said:
>
> > What was the opinion a century ago about horse
> > sizing and saddles, and how can this help us?
>
> 1. You don't have to pedal a horse.
>
> 2. The back of a horse is a lot wider than any bike.
>
> 3. The motion that a horse makes when being ridden is unlike any that a bike will make.
>
> 4. The riding position for a horse is either semi-crouching in the stirrups (thoroughbred racing)
> or seated rather erect (most other riding) rather than the leaning-forward-seated postures of
> most forms of cycling.
>
> In other words, there's not much that will translate between horse riding and bike riding.
> Motorcycle experience is also substantially irrelevant; the posture there is different as well,
> and the stresses and vibratory issues are largely of a nature not found on bicycles.
>
> Bike seats with prostate cutouts exist; opinions as to their value and/or necessity are as
> individual as the riders who do or don't use them. Hand and wrist numbness may be a matter of fit
> or of riding style; sometimes a change in one, the other, or both is needed.
>
> As for apparel, I have become convinced that one rider's perfect setup is quite likely to be the
> bane of another's existence. You really have to decide what's right for you on the basis of what
> works for you.
>
That's a great non-answer. A lawyer would be proud!

That said, I agree with all of it.

Mike

> --
> My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
> don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy. Words processed in a facility that
> contains nuts.

On 25 Nov 2003 00:55:43 GMT, tbgibb@aol.com (TBGibb) wrote:

>In article <yShwb.17652$Rk5.13667@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "MiRaGe"
><mi_rayge@knotyahoo.com> writes:
>
>>I have a Schwinn Frontier with front suspention that I bought in '01 that I have just gotten
>>interested in riding very much. I just ordered clipless pedals from Nashbar and gloves, and I know
>>I need slick or semi-slick tires for my riding style. My problem is that my hands go numb and my
>>prostate gland hurts after a few miles of riding. I have read all the posts about
>
>How do you know that it is your prostrate that hurts? The thing, as most men over 40 know all too
>well, is well hiden and protected.
>
>>sizing and my next stop may be the LBS, but here is my question. Shouldn't we know the ergonomics
>>of saddles by now? Haven't horsemen found that tight fitting jeans without underwear were better
>>for long rides? Why is it necessary for us to wear so much padding when a horse can bust your
>>gonads or give you saddle sores? What was the opinion a century ago about horse sizing and
>>saddles, and how can this help us?
>
>Tight jeans (as in denim) with no underwear? Sounds like torture.

I wear leather schooling chaps and don't have especially tight pants. Nice thing with chaps is that
they shrink/stretch to fit.

Many prople use fleece "seat saver" pads and they really help. The right saddle size is
essential, too.

Now what does any of this have to do with bicycles? No english or western saddle is anything close
to a Brooks ass hatchet.

And you don't pedal a horse, either.

>Yes we do know a lot about saddle ergonomics, but everyone is different so what works for me won't
>necessarily work for you.
>
>Tom Gibb <TBGibb@aol.com

RE/
>How do you know that it is your prostrate that hurts?

You'll know it when it happens....
--
PeteCresswell

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:27:34 GMT, "Jim, N2VX" <ZZZjim_cronin1@juno.comZZZ> wrote:
>And you don't pedal a horse, either.

No, but if he's dead, bring him around here and slap a helmet or chain lube sticker on him, and
we'll beat him until there isn't a single cell left, nor a piece of dirt where he once lay. Just
molten rock bubbling up from the Earth's core.

Whoa! I got it! I just figured out how we can dig a hole from the US to China, as small children
often think they might do. All we have to do is have a helmet war, and set up a similar one in the
diametrically opposite end of the earth; they'll meet in the middle!
--
Rick Onanian

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:50:15 -0500, Rick Onanian <spamsink@cox.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:27:34 GMT, "Jim, N2VX" <ZZZjim_cronin1@juno.comZZZ> wrote:
>>And you don't pedal a horse, either.
>
>No, but if he's dead, bring him around here and slap a helmet or chain lube sticker on him, and
>we'll beat him until there isn't a single cell left, nor a piece of dirt where he once lay. Just
>molten rock bubbling up from the Earth's core.
>
>Whoa! I got it! I just figured out how we can dig a hole from the US to China, as small children
>often think they might do. All we have to do is have a helmet war, and set up a similar one in the
>diametrically opposite end of the earth; they'll meet in the middle!

Can I have a rear view mirror on my horse? Promise I'll only use it on the road...

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:43:16 GMT, "Jim, N2VX" <ZZZjim_cronin1@juno.comZZZ> wrote:
>>Whoa! I got it! I just figured out how we can dig a hole from the US to China, as small children
>>often think they might do. All we have to do is have a helmet war, and set up a similar one in the
>>diametrically opposite end of the earth; they'll meet in the middle!
>
>Can I have a rear view mirror on my horse? Promise I'll only use it on the road...

It depends. What lighting do you think you'll use, and will you install a 53 tooth chainring with an
11 tooth sprocket on your horse's ass?
--
Rick Onanian