Westwood rims -- 559mm

Okay, I'm in the works for getting an old roadster. "Old" being the key word here--it has 584mm
rims (Called "Krondäck," 'round here). I would like to have plenty of options for tyres on this
bike, so I figure that 559mm rims are the way to go. However, it uses Westwood rims and I'd like to
keep it that way.

Is there such a beast as a 559 Westwood rim? Google isn't turning up much of anything.

Do any of the nearby English sizes (for which Westwoods are made for) have a good number of tyres
available for them?

Also: No, I don't know what I'm talking about when I say "Westwood." For all I know, it's "Warwick"
or "Wally World." They're just these rims that don't do caliper brakes.

Adam Rush wrote:

> Okay, I'm in the works for getting an old roadster. "Old" being the key word here--it has 584mm
> rims (Called "Krond=E4ck," 'round here). I=

> would like to have plenty of options for tyres on this bike, so I figure that 559mm rims are the
> way to go. However, it uses Westwood rims and I'd like to keep it that way.
>=20
> Is there such a beast as a 559 Westwood rim? =20

No. 559 rims are hook-edge type, and Westwood rims are straight sided=20 (straight inside, that is;
rounded on the outside.)

The 26 inch Westwood rims were 590 mm, 26 x 1 3/8, a.k.a. 650A.

> Do any of the nearby English sizes (for which Westwoods are made for) have a good number of tyres
> available for them?

590 mm is in better shape than 584 mm (650B), but is still something of=20 an endangerd species.

I can provide tires in both of these sizes:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/english" Brown +-----------------------------------------------------
+
| Oh, the cyclist and the runner should be friends, | Yes, the cyclist and the runner should be
| friends; | Some folks like to kick their heels, | Some folks like to spin their wheels, | But
| that's no reason why they can't be friends! |
| |
| Human-powered folks should stick together, | Non-polluting folks should get along; | If you agree
| with what I'm saying, | Won't you join me in my song? | -- Rogers & Brown |
+-----------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

> > Okay, I'm in the works for getting an old roadster. "Old" being the key word here--it has 584mm
> > rims (Called "Krond ck," 'round here). I would like to have plenty of options for tyres on this
> > bike, so I figure that 559mm rims are the way to go. However, it uses Westwood rims and I'd like
> > to keep it that way. Is there such a beast as a 559 Westwood rim?
> No. 559 rims are hook-edge type, and Westwood rims are straight sided (straight inside, that is;
> rounded on the outside.)

Does that mean that the hoop thingie (after shooting myself in the foot, I'm not taking chances with
vocabulary) inside the tyre is designed differently for each type?

> The 26 inch Westwood rims were 590 mm, 26 x 1 3/8, a.k.a. 650A.

As I had said earlier, I don't know what I'm talking about. The rim I am thinking of cannot be
used with caliper brakes, for want of vertical braking surface, but *might* be usable for rod
brakes. I have seen it in 584, 635, and possibly 622 (all that sticks in my mind is "28"). What
should i call this?

> > Do any of the nearby English sizes (for which Westwoods are made for) have a good number of
> > tyres available for them?
> 590 mm is in better shape than 584 mm (650B), but is still something of an endangerd species. I
> can provide tires in both of these sizes:

I did a bit more checking and saw a post from a while back about the Sun Phat Albert. Would this be
what I'm looking for, or is it way too wide? It looks like what I*m thinking of, but I don't know if
it's steel (which I'd prefer).

Adam Rush wrote:

>>>Okay, I'm in the works for getting an old roadster. "Old" being the key word here--it has 584mm
>>>rims (Called "Krond ck," 'round here). I would like to have plenty of options for tyres on this
>>>bike, so I figure that 559mm rims are the way to go. However, it uses Westwood rims and I'd like
>>>to keep it that way. Is there such a beast as a 559 Westwood rim?
>>
>>No. 559 rims are hook-edge type, and Westwood rims are straight sided (straight inside, that is;
>>rounded on the outside.)

> Does that mean that the hoop thingie (after shooting myself in the foot, I'm not taking chances
> with vocabulary) inside the tyre is designed differently for each type?

The actual wire bead is probably no different, but the rubber moulded around it is shaped to match a
rim with an inward pointing edge. There is limited interchangeability between hook-edge and straight-
side rims tires of the same bead seat diameter (ISO/E.T.R.T.O.). The only size that I know of where
both styles exists is 630 mm (27 inch.)

>>The 26 inch Westwood rims were 590 mm, 26 x 1 3/8, a.k.a. 650A.

> As I had said earlier, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Yes you do.

> The rim I am thinking of cannot be used with caliper brakes, for want of vertical braking surface,

Right. Those are Westwood rims.

> but *might* be usable for rod brakes.

No "might" about it, that's what they're designed for.

> I have seen it in 584, 635, and possibly 622 (all that sticks in my mind is "28"). What should i
> call this?

"Westwood." I never saw one in 622, but I have seen 635, 590, 540 and 451.

>>>Do any of the nearby English sizes (for which Westwoods are made for) have a good number of tyres
>>>available for them?

>>590 mm is in better shape than 584 mm (650B), but is still something of an endangerd species. I
>>can provide tires in both of these sizes:

> I did a bit more checking and saw a post from a while back about the Sun Phat Albert. Would this
> be what I'm looking for, or is it way too wide? It looks like what I*m thinking of, but I don't
> know if it's steel (which I'd prefer).

I'm not finding anything on "Phat Albert" though I do recall hearing the name.

The Sun Double Wide is a similar profile, see:

http://harriscyclery.net/site/page.c...=49&SKU=RM8553

Like all decent quality rims, it's aluminum. Although the shape is Westwoodesque, it is not intended
for use with rim brakes, and long-term durability of the rim surface under braking loads cannot be
guaranteed.

Note that going from 584 mm to 559 will lower the bottom bracket by 12.5 mm (1/2") which could lead
to pedal clearance issues. It will also look a bit funny with rims made for the larger tires, though
using a wider 559 mm tire may ameliorate this.

Another issue is whether the brake rod linkages will have sufficient adjustment room to reach the
smaller rims.

You're probably better off sticking with the stock tires.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/584.html

Sheldon "ISO/E.T.R.T.O." Brown +--------------------------------------------------+
| For every complex problem, there is a solution | that is simple, neat, and wrong. | --H. L.
| Mencken |
+--------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message news:<3FDC84CC.4000305@sheldonbrown.com>...

[snip]

> I'm not finding anything on "Phat Albert" though I do recall hearing the name.

[snip]

Dear Sheldon,

If you Google within Google Groups for "rim" and "Phat Albert," there are about a dozen increasingly
elderly references in rec.bicycle.* groups.

(I couldn't resist the name.)

Carl Fogel

Adam Rush wrote:

> Okay, I'm in the works for getting an old roadster. "Old" being the key word here--it has 584mm
> rims (Called "Krondäck," 'round here). I would like to have plenty of options for tyres on this
> bike, so I figure that 559mm rims are the way to go. However, it uses Westwood rims and I'd like
> to keep it that way.
>
> Is there such a beast as a 559 Westwood rim? Google isn't turning up much of anything.
>
> Do any of the nearby English sizes (for which Westwoods are made for) have a good number of tyres
> available for them?
>
> Also: No, I don't know what I'm talking about when I say "Westwood." For all I know, it's
> "Warwick" or "Wally World." They're just these rims that don't do caliper brakes.

Yes, IIRC 'Westrick' is a stirrup-brake rim section. Raleigh's cross section was 'Westwood". You'll
find more rims of that style in 590 than anything else nearby and a good selection of tires in that
size at $10~15. ( we even have all-white 590, besides the usual black, gumwall and knobby)

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoth Adam Rush:

>> Also: No, I don't know what I'm talking about when I say "Westwood." For all I know, it's
>> "Warwick" or "Wally World." They're just these rims that don't do caliper brakes.

Andy Muzi wrote:

> Yes, IIRC 'Westrick' is a stirrup-brake rim section. Raleigh's cross section was 'Westwood".
> You'll find more rims of that style in 590 than anything else nearby and a good selection of tires
> in that size at $10~15. ( we even have all-white 590, besides the usual black, gumwall and knobby)

Not quite. The rims made exclusively for rod brakes were "Westwood." They had round sides,
unsuitable for rim brakes.

The more conventional steel rims, with slightly angled sides, used on Robin Hood, Phillips, Dunelt
and all of the other second-line and lower Raleigh products were "Endrick."

The top-of-the line Raleigh models (Raleigh, Rudge & Humber) came with the "Raleigh Pattern" rims in
590 mm (26") and smaller sizes. These were wider than Endricks, and as close to indestructible as
any metal bicycle rims ever. Schwinn made a 597 mm knockoff for their three speed lightweights.

The Raleigh Pattern rim had a raised center section, like the Westwood, but also had flat (parallel)
sides so it could be used with either rod brakes or caliper brakes.

Because these rims combine aspects of the Westwood and Endrick styles, they're sometimes
colloquially referred to as "Westrick" rims.

Sheldon "Olde English" Brown +------------------------------------------+
| Some are born with a silver spoon, | And some are born without a clue; | Some are born to take
| the biscuit, | Some are born to just make do. |
| |
| When those fatcats drop the big one, | They will turn a penny, too: | They will rent out nuclear
| shelters, | We'll get one with an outside loo! | --The Oysterband | (The greatest band since the
| Beatles) |
+------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

> Quoth Adam Rush:
>>> Also: No, I don't know what I'm talking about when I say "Westwood." For all I know, it's
>>> "Warwick" or "Wally World." They're just these rims that don't do caliper brakes.

> Andy Muzi wrote:
>> Yes, IIRC 'Westrick' is a stirrup-brake rim section. Raleigh's cross section was 'Westwood".
>> You'll find more rims of that style in 590 than anything else nearby and a good selection of
>> tires in that size at $10~15. ( we even have all-white 590, besides the usual black, gumwall and
>> knobby)

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> Not quite. The rims made exclusively for rod brakes were "Westwood." They had round sides,
> unsuitable for rim brakes.
>
> The more conventional steel rims, with slightly angled sides, used on Robin Hood, Phillips, Dunelt
> and all of the other second-line and lower Raleigh products were "Endrick."
>
> The top-of-the line Raleigh models (Raleigh, Rudge & Humber) came with the "Raleigh Pattern" rims
> in 590 mm (26") and smaller sizes. These were wider than Endricks, and as close to indestructible
> as any metal bicycle rims ever. Schwinn made a 597 mm knockoff for their three speed lightweights.
>
> The Raleigh Pattern rim had a raised center section, like the Westwood, but also had flat
> (parallel) sides so it could be used with either rod brakes or caliper brakes.
>
> Because these rims combine aspects of the Westwood and Endrick styles, they're sometimes
> colloquially referred to as "Westrick" rims.

Thanks, I had an association between Westrick and stirrup brakes somwehere in memory but my oldest
Raleigh parts books show only Westwood rims for the DL-1.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

> > Does that mean that the hoop thingie (after shooting myself in the foot, I'm not taking chances
> > with vocabulary) inside the tyre is designed differently for each type?
> The actual wire bead is probably no different, but the rubber moulded around it is shaped to match
> a rim with an inward pointing edge. There is limited interchangeability between hook-edge and straight-
> side rims tires of the same bead seat diameter (ISO/E.T.R.T.O.). The only size that I know of
> where both styles exists is 630 mm (27 inch.)

Happen to have a picture of a 27 in westwood around?

> > I have seen it in 584, 635, and possibly 622 (all that sticks in my mind is "28"). What should i
> > call this?
> "Westwood." I never saw one in 622, but I have seen 635, 590, 540 and 451.

Those sizes get more evil as you go on

> Like all decent quality rims, it's aluminum. Although the shape is Westwoodesque, it is not
> intended for use with rim brakes, and long-term durability of the rim surface under braking loads
> cannot be guaranteed. Another issue is whether the brake rod linkages will have sufficient
> adjustment room to reach the smaller rims.

That much isn't a concern--this has a moped's front drum brake and a rear drumful S-A(?) ss hub.

> Note that going from 584 mm to 559 will lower the bottom bracket by 12.5 mm (1/2") which could
> lead to pedal clearance issues. It will also look a bit funny with rims made for the larger tires,
> though using a wider 559 mm tire may ameliorate this.

I'm not sure how much I'm going to be leaning anyway on a bike which weighs 26 kilos...

> increasingly elderly references in rec.bicycle.* groups.

http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=...&output=gplain

My metal shop teacher always told me: "Mature," not "old."

Adam Rush wrote:

>>>Does that mean that the hoop thingie (after shooting myself in the foot, I'm not taking chances
>>>with vocabulary) inside the tyre is designed differently for each type?

I wrote:

>>The actual wire bead is probably no different, but the rubber moulded around it is shaped to match
>>a rim with an inward pointing edge. There is limited interchangeability between hook-edge and straight-
>>side rims tires of the same bead seat diameter (ISO/E.T.R.T.O.). The only size that I know of
>>where both styles exists is 630 mm (27 inch.)

A.R.:

> Happen to have a picture of a 27 in westwood around?

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, I was referring to the fact that some 630 rims have hooked
edges, and some don't. There have never been Westwood rims in that size.

>>Note that going from 584 mm to 559 will lower the bottom bracket by 12.5 mm (1/2") which could
>>lead to pedal clearance issues. It will also look a bit funny with rims made for the larger tires,
>>though using a wider 559 mm tire may ameliorate this.
>
> I'm not sure how much I'm going to be leaning anyway on a bike which weighs 26 kilos...

Heavy bikes (and heavy riders) can get going very fast down hill.

I remember Gary Helfrich once said: "I really have to watch my weight...If it goes below about 205 I
can't go fast down hill any more."

Sheldon "Lightning Descender, Slow Climber" Brown +--------------------------------------+
| Without deviation from the norm, | progress is not possible | -- Frank Zappa |
+--------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com