Is it worth getting frame cold set?

I'm starting the process of redoing my 14 year old touring bike, and changing from Suntour 7 speed
to Shimano 9 speed in the process. The rear is spaced at 130mm. Certainly I can go with Shimano road
hubs, but is it worth getting the rear respaced to 135mm so mt bike hubs will fit? I assume a
stronger wheel can be built with the wider mt bike hub. Is there any issue with the 10mm axle
diameter and the ability to fit dropouts? Is bending your frame (cold setting) an acceptable
practice? I would have a skilled LBS with an on-staff frame builder do the job.

I can't comment on 135 mm spacing.

But, for what it's worth, I've spread two of my current steel bikes from 126 to 130 mm using Sheldon
Brown's do-it-yourself recipe, http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html.

It seems scary to do this yourself, but by working cautiously, measuring as you go, you can be
assured of excellent results.

Or an LBS can do it for you quite economically. One shop charged me $25 to spread a frame in '99.


Mike Yankee

(Address is munged to thwart spammers. To reply, delete everything after "com".)

135 mm spacing adds a little to the right side bracing angle, so it is worth it. You might also consider a rim that has offset spoke bed to decrease the differences from right side to left side spoke tension by bringing the bracing angles closer to the same.
I don't know what the 10 mm axle profile fit would be in your dropouts, but make sure you get complete and accurate clamping of your lock nuts to the inside of the dropouts.
Getting a good accurate cold setting with proper alignment is a good idea. If your shop has a skilled on-staf frame builder, he will also check other frame points to make sure that they are all OK when your frame is "set".

__________________
David Ornee, Western Springs, IL USA

it's perfectly and reliably "doable", but imo, it's not worth the effort. you can easily fit the 135
in there with hand pressure.

no issues with the 10mm.

jb

rosco wrote:
> I'm starting the process of redoing my 14 year old touring bike, and changing from Suntour 7 speed
> to Shimano 9 speed in the process. The rear is spaced at 130mm. Certainly I can go with Shimano
> road hubs, but is it worth getting the rear respaced to 135mm so mt bike hubs will fit? I assume a
> stronger wheel can be built with the wider mt bike hub. Is there any issue with the 10mm axle
> diameter and the ability to fit dropouts? Is bending your frame (cold setting) an acceptable
> practice? I would have a skilled LBS with an on-staff frame builder do the job.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 02:27:16 +0000, rosco wrote:

> I'm starting the process of redoing my 14 year old touring bike, and changing from Suntour 7 speed
> to Shimano 9 speed in the process. The rear is spaced at 130mm. Certainly I can go with Shimano
> road hubs, but is it worth getting the rear respaced to 135mm so mt bike hubs will fit?

IMO, no. You will still have trouble finding a hub with more than 36 spokes, either with 130 or 135.
Unless you are willing to spring for a Phil Wood cassette hub, you may not be able to find any. The
extra 5mm is not worth bending the frame.

I assume
> a stronger wheel can be built with the wider mt bike hub.

A significantly stronger wheel can be built with a tandem hub. Anything less is not worth the
trouble. Besides, a road wheel should be fine for touring.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | We have a record of conquest, colonization and expansion _`\(,_ | unequalled by any people
in the Nineteenth Century. We are not (_)/ (_) | to be curbed now. --Henry Cabot Lodge, 1895

rosco wrote:
> I'm starting the process of redoing my 14 year old touring bike, and changing from Suntour 7 speed
> to Shimano 9 speed in the process. The rear is spaced at 130mm. Certainly I can go with Shimano
> road hubs, but is it worth getting the rear respaced to 135mm so mt bike hubs will fit? I assume a
> stronger wheel can be built with the wider mt bike hub. Is there any issue with the 10mm axle
> diameter and the ability to fit dropouts? Is bending your frame (cold setting) an acceptable
> practice? I would have a skilled LBS with an on-staff frame builder do the job.

Try it and you'll find a 135 wheel slips into most 130mm bikes without any unusual effort.

Is it steel? It would be trivially simple (=cheap) to have an alignment done. Many shops will let
you watch the evaluation when the frame comes in. That's interesting to watch, because most frames
are not accurate to 2.5mm, which is what you are adding.

Yes nearly all modern frames are made with 10mm ends.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:vvf8sptpca5g3d@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Try it and you'll find a 135 wheel slips into most 130mm bikes without any unusual effort.
>
> Is it steel? It would be trivially simple (=cheap) to have an alignment done. Many shops will let
> you watch the evaluation when the frame comes in. That's interesting to watch, because most frames
> are not accurate to 2.5mm, which is what you are adding.
>
> Yes nearly all modern frames are made with 10mm ends.
> --
> Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>

Yes, it is steel - it's a Bruce Gordon. Very sturdy frame, and a wonderful ride. BG is very much
against cold setting. With regard to cold setting, they say... "how would you feel if you lent your
bike to a friend, and it came back slightly bent." I understand their viewpoint, but still find it
hard to believe it's that risky if done properly.

My plan was to have a new wheel built using an Ultegra hub in the rear (the front Suntour XC-Comp
hub is still 100% great, so no need to change that out). I've been lead to believe that mt bike hubs
(e.g. Shimano XT) have somewhat better seals. If the seals are significantly better, that might be a
desireable feature on a touring machine.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 02:27:16 GMT, "rosco"
<reverse-the-following"ocsor_g"@hotmail.com> may have said:

>I'm starting the process of redoing my 14 year old touring bike, and changing from Suntour 7 speed
>to Shimano 9 speed in the process. The rear is spaced at 130mm. Certainly I can go with Shimano
>road hubs, but is it worth getting the rear respaced to 135mm so mt bike hubs will fit? I assume a
>stronger wheel can be built with the wider mt bike hub. Is there any issue with the 10mm axle
>diameter and the ability to fit dropouts? Is bending your frame (cold setting) an acceptable
>practice? I would have a skilled LBS with an on-staff frame builder do the job.

For 5 mm, I'd just spread it enough by hand to slip the wheel in, assemble and ride.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

> IMO, no. You will still have trouble finding a hub with more than 36 spokes, either with 130 or
> 135. Unless you are willing to spring for a Phil Wood cassette hub, you may not be able to find
> any. The extra 5mm is not worth bending the frame.

You can take a Shimano tandem hub down to 135mm. If you're willing to live with a 7 speed freehub
you can have a 40 hole (or 48 hole) cassette hub with very little dish (center-to-flange on mine
about 28mm left and 22mm right). And the Shimano tandem hubs are very nice. They are around $125, so
they're still a lot cheaper than a Phil and they're better than just about any of the other tandem
hubs available. With double-butted spokes and a nice rim, you'll have a very reliable rear wheel.

I'd spread the frame, it's not too hard with old bikes like that. I spread my Schwinn Traveler
commuter from 126 to 135 and have had no problems.

Its rear wheel has a 40 hole Shimano tandem hub, Wheelsmith 2.0/1.7 double-butts, and a Mavic T519
rim. This was the 2nd rear wheel I'd ever built and it has been absolutely indestructable over 5000+
miles( so far), on rough roads, ocassionally hopping curbs, and usually carrying lots of weight.

-Bruce-

> "A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
> news:vvf8sptpca5g3d@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>Try it and you'll find a 135 wheel slips into most 130mm bikes without any unusual effort.
>>
>>Is it steel? It would be trivially simple (=cheap) to have an alignment done. Many shops will let
>>you watch the evaluation when the frame comes in. That's interesting to watch, because most frames
>>are not accurate to 2.5mm, which is what you are adding.
>>
>>Yes nearly all modern frames are made with 10mm ends.
>
>
rosco wrote:
> Yes, it is steel - it's a Bruce Gordon. Very sturdy frame, and a wonderful ride. BG is very much
> against cold setting. With regard to cold setting, they say... "how would you feel if you lent
> your bike to a friend, and it came back slightly bent." I understand their viewpoint, but still
> find it hard to believe it's that risky if done properly.
>
> My plan was to have a new wheel built using an Ultegra hub in the rear (the front Suntour XC-Comp
> hub is still 100% great, so no need to change that out). I've been lead to believe that mt bike
> hubs (e.g. Shimano XT) have somewhat better seals. If the seals are significantly better, that
> might be a desireable feature on a touring machine.

Everyone's got an opinion, I'm sure, but the Ultegra hubs are well-sealed, fit your frame and work
just fine.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

rosco" <reverse-the-following"ocsor_g wrote:
> I'm starting the process of redoing my 14 year old touring bike, and changing from Suntour 7 speed
> to Shimano 9 speed in the process. The rear is spaced at 130mm. Certainly I can go with Shimano
> road hubs, but is it worth getting the rear respaced to 135mm so mt bike hubs will fit? I assume a
> stronger wheel can be built with the wider mt bike hub.

An alternative would be spreading to 132.5mm so it will comfortably take both 130 and 135mm hubs.
Some new custom frames are built to this size.

As well as extra strength, it's easy to find better sealed hubs in the
135. Chainline is an issue, though - could be a pro or con depending on components and preference.

> Is bending your frame (cold setting) an acceptable practice?

Yes with steel frames. See: www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

> I would have a skilled LBS with an on-staff frame builder do the job.

That's probably best. I just did mine (125 to 133mm) at home with a threaded rod - seems to be ok,
fortunately.

~PB

rosco" <reverse-the-following"ocsor_g wrote:
> I'm starting the process of redoing my 14 year old touring bike, and changing from Suntour 7 speed
> to Shimano 9 speed in the process. The rear is spaced at 130mm. Certainly I can go with Shimano
> road hubs, but is it worth getting the rear respaced to 135mm so mt bike hubs will fit? I assume a
> stronger wheel can be built with the wider mt bike hub. Is there any issue with the 10mm axle
> diameter and the ability to fit dropouts? Is bending your frame (cold setting) an acceptable
> practice? I would have a skilled LBS with an on-staff frame builder do the job.

Yes. Do it properly and check and double check the tracking using Sheldons help. Else get a shop to
do it. I did mine without the aid of Sheldon Brown or a threaded rod, didn't check the alignment and
suffered serious speed wobble when laden. I took it to a 531 frame builder they put it on a jig and
fixed it for me - no problems.

rosco wrote:
> I'm starting the process of redoing my 14 year old touring bike, and changing from Suntour 7 speed
> to Shimano 9 speed in the process. The rear is spaced at 130mm. Certainly I can go with Shimano
> road hubs, but is it worth getting the rear respaced to 135mm so mt bike hubs will fit? I assume a
> stronger wheel can be built with the wider mt bike hub. Is there any issue with the 10mm axle
> diameter and the ability to fit dropouts? Is bending your frame (cold setting) an acceptable
> practice? I would have a skilled LBS with an on-staff frame builder do the job.
>
>
I would permanently cold set it rather than force the hub in every time. Steel will fatigue under
the sort of force required to spread a rear end, so you don't want to do it every time you have the
wheel out.

I did 126-130mm myself a few years ago. It only took moderate strength
[1] and long pieces of scaffold pole etc. aren't necessary. It's essential to pull both sides out
equally - to check this, run a piece of thread around the dropouts and the head tube and measure
the distance between the thread and the seat tube on both sides.

If your frame is not made from steel, don't even consider it!

[2] the frame is 531C - if you have seriously beefy stays on a touring bike, it might be more
difficult.

rosco-<< The rear is spaced at 130mm. Certainly I can go with Shimano road hubs, but is it worth
getting the rear respaced to 135mm so mt bike hubs will fit? >><BR><BR>

It's not a big deal to cold set it or make the hub 132.5mm by replaceing a few spacers on a MTB hub
with thinner ones.

rosco<< I assume a stronger wheel can be built with the wider mt bike hub. >><BR><BR>

yes, but don't assume that a wheel, using the proper rims, spokes and number for a touring bike is
'weak' using a 130mm hub.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Zog The Undeniable wrote: <snip>

> I would permanently cold set it rather than force the hub in every time. Steel will fatigue under
> the sort of force required to spread a rear end, so you don't want to do it every time you have
> the wheel out.

the force necessary to spread the frame elastically is at least an order of magnitude less than that
of the rider's weight. you're /not/ going to see any material difference in fatigue at that level.

jb