Re: Is my tire bad?

NiteRider wrote:
> Last season, I managed to have two major problems with one tire, an
> IRC Metro/K. The first time was my fault. I apparently hadn't seated
> the new tire properly on the rim and when I was pumping up, a few
> inches of bead came off and the tube blew into pieces, bending the
> rim sidewall. I rebuilt with a Campy Thorr rim, which should be much
> stronger than the factory rim. But on the long, last ride of the
> season, it blew again. Didn't bend the rim, but destroyed another
> tube. (Pain in the neck, too, since this tube had sealant inside and
> basically blasted it all over the place.) I made sure I'd seated the
> bead properly this time.
>
> Is this particular tire bad, or am I just a victim of bad luck?
> There've been no problems at all with the other Metro I have on my
> front wheel, which was bought at the same time. I'd hate to trash a
> tire that's only got a couple of hundred miles on it. But I expect to
> be doing a few more long rides this season and I don't want to risk
> being stranded far from home (yeah, I can carry a tube, pump, and
> levers, but that should be a last resort). Anybody else have problems
> with Metros or IRC tires in general?

If these are wire bead, have you ever folded these tires? I folded a wire
bead road tire incorrectly once, and this made the bead uneven, working its
way off the rim after 0.5 miles and blowing the tube. Unless your sidewall
was already suspect, however, I don't see how a tire blowing off could bend
a rim...
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil Lee writes:

>> Last season, I managed to have two major problems with one tire, an
>> IRC Metro/K. The first time was my fault. I apparently hadn't
>> seated the new tire properly on the rim and when I was pumping up,
>> a few inches of bead came off and the tube blew into pieces,
>> bending the rim sidewall. I rebuilt with a Campy Thorr rim, which
>> should be much stronger than the factory rim. But on the long,
>> last ride of the season, it blew again. Didn't bend the rim, but
>> destroyed another tube. (Pain in the neck, too, since this tube
>> had sealant inside and basically blasted it all over the place.) I
>> made sure I'd seated the bead properly this time.

>> Is this particular tire bad, or am I just a victim of bad luck?
>> There've been no problems at all with the other Metro I have on my
>> front wheel, which was bought at the same time. I'd hate to trash
>> a tire that's only got a couple of hundred miles on it. But I
>> expect to be doing a few more long rides this season and I don't
>> want to risk being stranded far from home (yeah, I can carry a
>> tube, pump, and levers, but that should be a last resort). Anybody
>> else have problems with Metros or IRC tires in general?

> If these are wire bead, have you ever folded these tires? I folded
> a wire bead road tire incorrectly once, and this made the bead
> uneven, working its way off the rim after 0.5 miles and blowing the
> tube. Unless your sidewall was already suspect, however, I don't
> see how a tire blowing off could bend a rim...

The best you can do with a wire bead tire is to not fold it but to
coil it as shown:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8b.23.html

Jobst.Brandt@stanfordalumni.org

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 04:36:06 GMT, NiteRider
<stingray@bowlander.bike> wrote:

>In article <MDZ%d.904$kI3.667@fe07.usenetserver.com>, Phil,
>Squid-in-Training <phil_leeIHEARTBASHGUARDS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If these are wire bead, have you ever folded these tires? I folded a wire
>> bead road tire incorrectly once, and this made the bead uneven, working its
>> way off the rim after 0.5 miles and blowing the tube. Unless your sidewall
>> was already suspect, however, I don't see how a tire blowing off could bend
>> a rim...
>
>I never folded them. They did come coiled from the store, but that's
>safe. What bent was the edge of the wall. It looked almost like I'd
>gotten big air and landed with zero air pressure, so the flange bent
>outward a couple of mm. I'd send a picture of the failed rim, but this
>isn't a binaries group. I'm not surprised that factory rims (not name
>brand) aren't especially strong. The Thorr didn't bend when the tube
>blew out of that.

Dear NiteRider,

Feel free to email a picture in an attachment to me for
hosting: carlfogel@cocmast.net

There are also free hosting sites:

http://www.theimagehosting.com/

Carl Fogel

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:50:37 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net
wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 04:36:06 GMT, NiteRider
><stingray@bowlander.bike> wrote:
>
>>In article <MDZ%d.904$kI3.667@fe07.usenetserver.com>, Phil,
>>Squid-in-Training <phil_leeIHEARTBASHGUARDS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If these are wire bead, have you ever folded these tires? I folded a wire
>>> bead road tire incorrectly once, and this made the bead uneven, working its
>>> way off the rim after 0.5 miles and blowing the tube. Unless your sidewall
>>> was already suspect, however, I don't see how a tire blowing off could bend
>>> a rim...
>>
>>I never folded them. They did come coiled from the store, but that's
>>safe. What bent was the edge of the wall. It looked almost like I'd
>>gotten big air and landed with zero air pressure, so the flange bent
>>outward a couple of mm. I'd send a picture of the failed rim, but this
>>isn't a binaries group. I'm not surprised that factory rims (not name
>>brand) aren't especially strong. The Thorr didn't bend when the tube
>>blew out of that.
>
>Dear NiteRider,
>
>Feel free to email a picture in an attachment to me for
>hosting: carlfogel@cocmast.net
>
>There are also free hosting sites:
>
>http://www.theimagehosting.com/
>
>Carl Fogel

Er, carlfogel@comcast.net.

Dyslexically,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:50:37 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 04:36:06 GMT, NiteRider
>> <stingray@bowlander.bike> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <MDZ%d.904$kI3.667@fe07.usenetserver.com>, Phil,
>>> Squid-in-Training <phil_leeIHEARTBASHGUARDS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If these are wire bead, have you ever folded these tires? I
>>>> folded a wire bead road tire incorrectly once, and this made the
>>>> bead uneven, working its way off the rim after 0.5 miles and
>>>> blowing the tube. Unless your sidewall was already suspect,
>>>> however, I don't see how a tire blowing off could bend a rim...
>>>
>>> I never folded them. They did come coiled from the store, but that's
>>> safe. What bent was the edge of the wall. It looked almost like I'd
>>> gotten big air and landed with zero air pressure, so the flange bent
>>> outward a couple of mm. I'd send a picture of the failed rim, but
>>> this isn't a binaries group. I'm not surprised that factory rims
>>> (not name brand) aren't especially strong. The Thorr didn't bend
>>> when the tube blew out of that.
>>
>> Dear NiteRider,
>>
>> Feel free to email a picture in an attachment to me for
>> hosting: carlfogel@cocmast.net
>>
>> There are also free hosting sites:
>>
>> http://www.theimagehosting.com/
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
> Er, carlfogel@comcast.net.
>
> Dyslexically,
>
> Carl Fogel

Where's Sorni? He should have jumped all over this one by now... maybe he
has to wait till tomorrow's slow morning?
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:32:47 GMT, NiteRider
<stingray@bowlander.bike> wrote:

>In article <1f0241h4bf1fsdcrsbg7fhcc20vvshu7iv@4ax.com>,
><carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> >I never folded them. They did come coiled from the store, but that's
>> >safe. What bent was the edge of the wall. It looked almost like I'd
>> >gotten big air and landed with zero air pressure, so the flange bent
>> >outward a couple of mm. I'd send a picture of the failed rim, but this
>> >isn't a binaries group. I'm not surprised that factory rims (not name
>> >brand) aren't especially strong. The Thorr didn't bend when the tube
>> >blew out of that.
>>
>> Dear NiteRider,
>>
>> Feel free to email a picture in an attachment to me for
>> hosting: carlfogel@cocmast.net
>
>I had a friend email it to you. I considered hammering the rim back
>since this wheel has a disk brake, but then I noticed the crack on the
>inside of the rim, visible in the third picture.
>
>> There are also free hosting sites:
>>
>> http://www.theimagehosting.com/
>
>Doesn't work. Looks like Yahoo bought them out and shut it down.

Dear NiteRider,

Your 14k rim triptych can be seen here:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/d...d/rim_nite.jpg

Anyone surprised by the small size of the file should
remember that the three pictures of the rim are practically
black and white, so the detail is actually good.

The hosting service seems to be working--I just registered,
logged in, and uploaded the same file:

http://server5.theimagehosting.com/i...g=rim_nite.jpg

http://www.theimagehosting.com

Carl Fogel

NiteRider? writes:

> I never folded them. They did come coiled from the store, but
> that's safe. What bent was the edge of the wall. It looked almost
> like I'd gotten big air and landed with zero air pressure, so the
> flange bent outward a couple of mm. I'd send a picture of the
> failed rim, but this isn't a binaries group. I'm not surprised that
> factory rims (not name brand) aren't especially strong. The Thorr
> didn't bend when the tube blew out of that.

http://server5.theimagehosting.com/i...g=rim_nite.jpg

I am certain that the damage on the pictured rim did not come from
tire inflation or a faulty tire bead. The damage was most likely
caused by hitting something lying on the road, like a one inch high
block of wood or other such obstacle, even a rock. It most likely was
not an excavation cover plate of step in the pavement, because that
would have damaged both edges of the rim.

Kevlar beads have no significant bending resistance and do not blow
out in this manner when inflated, nor did the wire bead tires tested
for clinch by cutting the wire at a number of places. I wasn't there
but I suspect you noticed the jolt and assumed it was caused by the
blowout. I believe the jolt caused the blowout.

Jobst.Brandt@stanfordalumni.org

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 02:34:50 GMT, NiteRider
<stingray@bowlander.bike> wrote:

>In article <nm34415qaq4fsn28qcognorh8cn83lhv0b@4ax.com>,
><carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Dear NiteRider,
>>
>> Your 14k rim triptych can be seen here:
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/d...d/rim_nite.jpg
>>
>> Anyone surprised by the small size of the file should
>> remember that the three pictures of the rim are practically
>> black and white, so the detail is actually good.
>>
>> The hosting service seems to be working--I just registered,
>> logged in, and uploaded the same file:
>
>Thanks, Carl. I don't know what's wrong on my end. Every time I click
>on your link for imagehosting.com, I instantly get redirected to
>Yahoo's home page, and I can't find anything about image hosting there.

Dear NiteRider,

You're welcome.

Possibly you need to clean out your browser's cache? Your
header indicates Thoth and OS X, so I have no idea how to
empty the cache, but these links work reliably for me:

http://server5.theimagehosting.com/i...g=rim_nite.jpg

http://www.theimagehosting.com

Carl Fogel

NiteRider? writes:

>> http://server5.theimagehosting.com/i...g=rim_nite.jpg

>> I am certain that the damage on the pictured rim did not come from
>> tire inflation or a faulty tire bead. The damage was most likely
>> caused by hitting something lying on the road, like a one inch high
>> block of wood or other such obstacle, even a rock. It most likely
>> was not an excavation cover plate of step in the pavement, because
>> that would have damaged both edges of the rim.

>> Kevlar beads have no significant bending resistance and do not blow
>> out in this manner when inflated, nor did the wire bead tires
>> tested for clinch by cutting the wire at a number of places. I
>> wasn't there but I suspect you noticed the jolt and assumed it was
>> caused by the blowout. I believe the jolt caused the blowout.

> Nice hypothesis, but completely wrong. This was the first rim, the
> first time this tire caused a problem for me. That time, I wasn't
> out on the road. I was in my apartment having just finished
> mounting a brand new wire bead Metro on the wheel. The wheel wasn't
> even back on my bike. Pumping it up, it blew at around 50-60psi,
> surprisingly low in my opinion but not inconsistent with a badly
> seated bead. Pretty deafening in a confined space, too.

Well then its worse than I suspected. The rim could not be bent to
that shape with 60psi or even 120psi. If so, you need to explain
where the local force arose that cause this at this point dent and
nowhere else. I can't see your face or whether you are chuckling as
you write this, but the more I read the more I get the feeling of a
put-on (aka troll). Lateral force around the bead is uniform when the
wheel is not loaded, and couldn't possibly cause a local irregularity.
As I said, Kevlar bead tires have no bead stiffness and press on the
rim uniformly. There is no way your tire could cause this anomaly.

> It blew off again months later on the rim I rebuilt the wheel with,
> a Campagnolo Thorr. But this second time was on a ride and there
> was no apparent damage to that rim. That the tire blew off two
> different rims is my source of concern.

That it occurred the second time while riding ought to make you wonder
who bent the rim the first time, there being no damage to the rim
while it was loaded. I am certain that if air pressure were the
culprit then you could repeat the rim damage experiment by inflating a
tire to 120psi, something that folks report fairly often in here. You
might blow the tire off the rim if it isn't properly mounted but even
then it will not bend the rim, or for that matter cause any damage.

Jobst.Brandt@stanfordalumni.org

NiteRider <stingray@bowlander.bike> wrote:

>In article <wfq0e.12036$m31.124663@typhoon.sonic.net>,
><jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>
>> NiteRider? writes:
>>
>> > Nice hypothesis, but completely wrong. This was the first rim, the
>> > first time this tire caused a problem for me. That time, I wasn't
>> > out on the road. I was in my apartment having just finished
>> > mounting a brand new wire bead Metro on the wheel. The wheel wasn't
>> > even back on my bike. Pumping it up, it blew at around 50-60psi,
>> > surprisingly low in my opinion but not inconsistent with a badly
>> > seated bead. Pretty deafening in a confined space, too.
>>
>> Well then its worse than I suspected. The rim could not be bent to
>> that shape with 60psi or even 120psi. If so, you need to explain
>> where the local force arose that cause this at this point dent and
>> nowhere else. I can't see your face or whether you are chuckling as
>> you write this, but the more I read the more I get the feeling of a
>> put-on (aka troll). Lateral force around the bead is uniform when the
>> wheel is not loaded, and couldn't possibly cause a local irregularity.
>> As I said, Kevlar bead tires have no bead stiffness and press on the
>> rim uniformly. There is no way your tire could cause this anomaly.
>>
>> > It blew off again months later on the rim I rebuilt the wheel with,
>> > a Campagnolo Thorr. But this second time was on a ride and there
>> > was no apparent damage to that rim. That the tire blew off two
>> > different rims is my source of concern.
>>
>> That it occurred the second time while riding ought to make you wonder
>> who bent the rim the first time, there being no damage to the rim
>> while it was loaded. I am certain that if air pressure were the
>> culprit then you could repeat the rim damage experiment by inflating a
>> tire to 120psi, something that folks report fairly often in here. You
>> might blow the tire off the rim if it isn't properly mounted but even
>> then it will not bend the rim, or for that matter cause any damage.
>
>Okay, I can see now why some people around here have no use for your
>rantings. Jobst Brandt knows everything. And if you contradict him, you
>must be a troll. Enough with you, then. I have no patience to deal with
>a self-important self-described genius. Off to the killfile with you.

It is oft said that a wise man can learn from a fool, but a fool
cannot learn from a wise man.

NiteRider: I leave it to you to decide how and if this little maxim
applies here....

NiteRider <stingray@bowlander.bike> writes:

> In article <wfq0e.12036$m31.124663@typhoon.sonic.net>,
> <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>
>> NiteRider? writes:
>>
>> > Nice hypothesis, but completely wrong. This was the first rim, the
>> > first time this tire caused a problem for me. That time, I wasn't
>> > out on the road. I was in my apartment having just finished
>> > mounting a brand new wire bead Metro on the wheel. The wheel wasn't
>> > even back on my bike. Pumping it up, it blew at around 50-60psi,
>> > surprisingly low in my opinion but not inconsistent with a badly
>> > seated bead. Pretty deafening in a confined space, too.
>>
>> Well then its worse than I suspected. The rim could not be bent to
>> that shape with 60psi or even 120psi. If so, you need to explain
>> where the local force arose that cause this at this point dent and
>> nowhere else. I can't see your face or whether you are chuckling as
>> you write this, but the more I read the more I get the feeling of a
>> put-on (aka troll). Lateral force around the bead is uniform when the
>> wheel is not loaded, and couldn't possibly cause a local irregularity.
>> As I said, Kevlar bead tires have no bead stiffness and press on the
>> rim uniformly. There is no way your tire could cause this anomaly.
>>
>> > It blew off again months later on the rim I rebuilt the wheel with,
>> > a Campagnolo Thorr. But this second time was on a ride and there
>> > was no apparent damage to that rim. That the tire blew off two
>> > different rims is my source of concern.
>>
>> That it occurred the second time while riding ought to make you wonder
>> who bent the rim the first time, there being no damage to the rim
>> while it was loaded. I am certain that if air pressure were the
>> culprit then you could repeat the rim damage experiment by inflating a
>> tire to 120psi, something that folks report fairly often in here. You
>> might blow the tire off the rim if it isn't properly mounted but even
>> then it will not bend the rim, or for that matter cause any damage.
>
> Okay, I can see now why some people around here have no use for your
> rantings. Jobst Brandt knows everything. And if you contradict him, you
> must be a troll. Enough with you, then. I have no patience to deal with
> a self-important self-described genius. Off to the killfile with you.

That may be so, but you are still wrong about how your rim got bent.
It just isn't possible for the tire to apply the necessary force.

doa

NiteRider <stingray@bowlander.bike> writes:

> In article <x6hdj1aqru.fsf@gmail.com>, Jim Smith
> <3.141592six@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Okay, I can see now why some people around here have no use for your
>> > rantings. Jobst Brandt knows everything. And if you contradict him, you
>> > must be a troll. Enough with you, then. I have no patience to deal with
>> > a self-important self-described genius. Off to the killfile with you.
>>
>> That may be so, but you are still wrong about how your rim got bent.
>> It just isn't possible for the tire to apply the necessary force.
>
> Then you tell me how it got bent. Don't you think I would have noticed
> such a dent when I was mounting the tire? Is this all you can do, just
> call me a liar or an idiot? Who knows, maybe there was a weakness in
> this specific rim. You can't rule that out unless you're an omniscient
> god like Brandt. If you're both so sure that it was because of an
> impact with a rock, which I'm absolutely sure there wasn't since I
> wasn't on a ride, why isn't there so much as a scratch on the edge of
> the rim? Even a tire's casing couldn't cushion such an impact so well
> that the anodizing isn't touched. I can show you more closeup pictures
> if you don't believe me. Heck, if you're willing to pay the shipping,
> I'd be happy to ship the rim to you for inspection.

I'm not exactly calling you a liar or an idiot. yet. However, I don't
believe in magic either.

Now aliens, on the other hand...

NiteRider wrote:
> In article <x6hdj1aqru.fsf@gmail.com>, Jim Smith
> <3.141592six@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Okay, I can see now why some people around here have no use for your
>>> rantings. Jobst Brandt knows everything. And if you contradict him,
>>> you must be a troll. Enough with you, then. I have no patience to
>>> deal with a self-important self-described genius. Off to the
>>> killfile with you.
>>
>> That may be so, but you are still wrong about how your rim got bent.
>> It just isn't possible for the tire to apply the necessary force.
>
> Then you tell me how it got bent. Don't you think I would have noticed
> such a dent when I was mounting the tire? Is this all you can do, just
> call me a liar or an idiot? Who knows, maybe there was a weakness in
> this specific rim. You can't rule that out unless you're an omniscient
> god like Brandt. If you're both so sure that it was because of an
> impact with a rock, which I'm absolutely sure there wasn't since I
> wasn't on a ride, why isn't there so much as a scratch on the edge of
> the rim? Even a tire's casing couldn't cushion such an impact so well
> that the anodizing isn't touched. I can show you more closeup pictures
> if you don't believe me. Heck, if you're willing to pay the shipping,
> I'd be happy to ship the rim to you for inspection.

One of the first things to check would be if the sidewall was really thin at
that point, by machining or otherwise.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

NiteRider wrote:
> In article <x6hdj1aqru.fsf@gmail.com>, Jim Smith
> <3.141592six@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Okay, I can see now why some people around here have no use for your
>>>rantings. Jobst Brandt knows everything. And if you contradict him, you
>>>must be a troll. Enough with you, then. I have no patience to deal with
>>>a self-important self-described genius. Off to the killfile with you.
>>
>>That may be so, but you are still wrong about how your rim got bent.
>>It just isn't possible for the tire to apply the necessary force.
>
>
> Then you tell me how it got bent. Don't you think I would have noticed
> such a dent when I was mounting the tire? Is this all you can do, just
> call me a liar or an idiot? Who knows, maybe there was a weakness in
> this specific rim. You can't rule that out unless you're an omniscient
> god like Brandt. If you're both so sure that it was because of an
> impact with a rock, which I'm absolutely sure there wasn't since I
> wasn't on a ride, why isn't there so much as a scratch on the edge of
> the rim? Even a tire's casing couldn't cushion such an impact so well
> that the anodizing isn't touched. I can show you more closeup pictures
> if you don't believe me. Heck, if you're willing to pay the shipping,
> I'd be happy to ship the rim to you for inspection.

relax guy.

the no-name rim bent because it was weak/defective - as evidenced by
having the same tire blowing out again, it did not bend the better
quality campy rim. the tire blew because it's got a bead defect. it's
unfortunate coincidence you got the first two in the same place at the
same time. please note however, that regardless of the pressure rating
on the tire sidewall, the wider the tire, the lower the pressure the rim
can take. you don't state the tire width in your original post, but
check out mavic's web site for a table that shows this relationship.

best, safest thing to do is discard those tires. you don't want that
same experience with the front blowing out on a descent.

regarding "garage" blowouts, i've had almost identical experience with
cheapo kenda tires & some other no-name brand, i forget which. just
thrown them as far away as possible. and cut the bead before hand so
noone else can salvage them. these days i stick with "known" tire
brands like michelin, hutchinson, continental, etc. [my hutchinsons
have been /fantastic/ for winter puncture resistance btw.]

the rim in jobst's image clearly shows a crack - probably an extrusion
defect. if your bent rim shows a similar feature, consider yourself
lucky it didn't happen while you were trying to emergency brake on a
hill. use this as a positive learning experience about cheap tires &
cheap rims.