Lance Armstrong rides aged tubulars - Page 2

Rubber fetish, goes down there in the evenings and rubs ...etc...

>> Its obvious this "GURU" pro mechanic with 40 years of experience hasn't
>> read the Bicycle FAQ:
>>
>> What advantage is there in aging tubulars?
>> None!
>
> Then again, Lance hasn't been known to have an exceptional number of flats
> (even assuming Lance has actually been using this guy's tires). Maybe
> there's something special in the vermin juices of this cellar.

Lance doesn't get flats... period. He's known for having rather exceptional
luck that way. But it's not because his tires are well-aged.

As to why Lance used aged tubulars, it has to do with absolute trust in your
mechanic. The relationship between racer and mechanic isn't typical, and
can't be defined in normal terms. The pro mechanic sells a particular brand
of snake oil, along with his mechanical expertise. He has to somehow
convince his client that nobody can better prepare a bike than he, that he's
the only person who can impart that magical something that can propel a bike
to victory.

I doubt any team mechanic ever put on his (and yes, as far as I know,
they're all male) resume that he's fluent in the FAQs regarding bicycle
maintenance & repair.

But much as I seek to undermine the mysticism surrounding the team mechanic,
I must also point out that there's a lot more to making a bike perform
exceptionally well than just knowing what screw to turn in which direction.
There are many competent mechanics who know *what* to do, but don't have a
great feel for how things interact... there's an inutitive feeling for what
it takes to make something work really well, and some people have it, some
don't. It's not something that can be taught. You can teach somebody how to
do something well, but many will just never develop a feel for wheel truing,
for example. They understand the mechanics, and can make a wheel reasonably
true, but the really great mechanic will spin the wheel a couple times, note
what's going on, and work a bit of magic on the spokes without even having
to look at reference points on the truing stand.

I imagine this is no different from work in any other field; there will be
those who have a natural talent for something, and others who do things by
the numbers (and get the job done, perfectly adequately, but not
exceptionally).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> As to why Lance used aged tubulars, it has to do with absolute trust
> in your mechanic. The relationship between racer and mechanic isn't
> typical, and can't be defined in normal terms. The pro mechanic sells
> a particular brand of snake oil, along with his mechanical expertise.
> He has to somehow convince his client that nobody can better prepare
> a bike than he, that he's the only person who can impart that magical
> something that can propel a bike to victory.
>
> I doubt any team mechanic ever put on his (and yes, as far as I know,
> they're all male) resume that he's fluent in the FAQs regarding
> bicycle maintenance & repair.
>
> But much as I seek to undermine the mysticism surrounding the team
> mechanic, I must also point out that there's a lot more to making a
> bike perform exceptionally well than just knowing what screw to turn
> in which direction. There are many competent mechanics who know
> *what* to do, but don't have a great feel for how things interact...
> there's an inutitive feeling for what it takes to make something work
> really well, and some people have it, some don't. It's not something
> that can be taught. You can teach somebody how to do something well,
> but many will just never develop a feel for wheel truing, for
> example. They understand the mechanics, and can make a wheel
> reasonably true, but the really great mechanic will spin the wheel a
> couple times, note what's going on, and work a bit of magic on the
> spokes without even having to look at reference points on the truing
> stand.
> I imagine this is no different from work in any other field; there
> will be those who have a natural talent for something, and others who
> do things by the numbers (and get the job done, perfectly adequately,
> but not exceptionally).

That was beautiful, man.

(Especially compared to those endless spoke tension fatigue stress relief
hanging/standing minutia threads!)

Bill "like, just rides a bike" S.

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:05:12 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<sorniunflatteringclothes@san.rr.com> wrote:

>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> As to why Lance used aged tubulars, it has to do with absolute trust
>> in your mechanic. The relationship between racer and mechanic isn't
>> typical, and can't be defined in normal terms. The pro mechanic sells
>> a particular brand of snake oil, along with his mechanical expertise.
>> He has to somehow convince his client that nobody can better prepare
>> a bike than he, that he's the only person who can impart that magical
>> something that can propel a bike to victory.
>>
>> I doubt any team mechanic ever put on his (and yes, as far as I know,
>> they're all male) resume that he's fluent in the FAQs regarding
>> bicycle maintenance & repair.
>>
>> But much as I seek to undermine the mysticism surrounding the team
>> mechanic, I must also point out that there's a lot more to making a
>> bike perform exceptionally well than just knowing what screw to turn
>> in which direction. There are many competent mechanics who know
>> *what* to do, but don't have a great feel for how things interact...
>> there's an inutitive feeling for what it takes to make something work
>> really well, and some people have it, some don't. It's not something
>> that can be taught. You can teach somebody how to do something well,
>> but many will just never develop a feel for wheel truing, for
>> example. They understand the mechanics, and can make a wheel
>> reasonably true, but the really great mechanic will spin the wheel a
>> couple times, note what's going on, and work a bit of magic on the
>> spokes without even having to look at reference points on the truing
>> stand.
>> I imagine this is no different from work in any other field; there
>> will be those who have a natural talent for something, and others who
>> do things by the numbers (and get the job done, perfectly adequately,
>> but not exceptionally).
>
>That was beautiful, man.
>
>(Especially compared to those endless spoke tension fatigue stress relief
>hanging/standing minutia threads!)
>
>Bill "like, just rides a bike" S.

Dear Bill,

I think that it would have been better if the mechanic who
needed no truing stand or reference points had been blind
and named Von Herder, but I'm influenced by "The Adventure
of the Empty House":

http://www.citsoft.com/holmes/return/empty.house.txt

J. Watson, M.D.

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:05:12 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
> <sorniunflatteringclothes@san.rr.com> wrote {of Mike's missive}:

>> That was beautiful, man.
>>
>> (Especially compared to those endless spoke tension fatigue stress
>> relief hanging/standing minutia threads!)
>>
>> Bill "like, just rides a bike" S.
>
> Dear Bill,
>
> I think that it would have been better if the mechanic who
> needed no truing stand or reference points had been blind
> and named Von Herder, but I'm influenced by "The Adventure
> of the Empty House":
>
> http://www.citsoft.com/holmes/return/empty.house.txt
>
> J. Watson, M.D.

Dear Carl,

If Hammer didn't make a movie of it with Christopher Lee and Peter
Cushing -- along with a cadre of voluptuous vapiresses -- then what good was
it?

Impressionably Yours,

Drive-in Bill

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/...39/hammer.html

<rruffrruff@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119996191.904657.59590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> This guy's been a
> The fascinating thing is that he can stock up on tires 7 years in
> advance!... when he doesn't even know who he will be working for or
> what their tire sponsor will be.

On race day, the label on the tubular will match whomever the current tire
sponsor is. Even if the sponsor does not make or market tubulars.

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:29:46 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<sorniunflatteringclothes@san.rr.com> wrote:

>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:05:12 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
>> <sorniunflatteringclothes@san.rr.com> wrote {of Mike's missive}:
>
>>> That was beautiful, man.
>>>
>>> (Especially compared to those endless spoke tension fatigue stress
>>> relief hanging/standing minutia threads!)
>>>
>>> Bill "like, just rides a bike" S.
>>
>> Dear Bill,
>>
>> I think that it would have been better if the mechanic who
>> needed no truing stand or reference points had been blind
>> and named Von Herder, but I'm influenced by "The Adventure
>> of the Empty House":
>>
>> http://www.citsoft.com/holmes/return/empty.house.txt
>>
>> J. Watson, M.D.
>
>Dear Carl,
>
>If Hammer didn't make a movie of it with Christopher Lee and Peter
>Cushing -- along with a cadre of voluptuous vapiresses -- then what good was
>it?
>
>Impressionably Yours,
>
>Drive-in Bill
>
>http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/...39/hammer.html

Dear Bill,

Arguably the best Hammer film was "Vampire Circus," which
featured a complete vampire film with no dialogue before the
opening title.

On the other hand, George MacDonald Fraser used "The
Adventure of the Empty House" in his trio of Flashman short
stories, complete with voluptuous grand-daughter.

S. Holmes

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

> Dear Bill,
>
> Arguably the best Hammer film was "Vampire Circus," which
> featured a complete vampire film with no dialogue before the
> opening title.

(Dear) Carl you ignorant slut,

If it wasn't "Dracula - Prince of Darkness" (1966), then the /best/ Hammer
film was certainly:

"BRIDES OF DRACULA (1960)
D: Terence Fisher. CAST: Peter Cushing, David Peel, Martita Hunt, Yvonne
Monlaur, Andree Melley, Freda Jackson, Mona Washbourne, Henry Oscar, Miles
Malleson, Victor Brooks, Fred Johnson, Michael Ripper, Norman Pierce, Vera
Cook, Marie Devereux, Harold Scott, Michael Mulcaster. For years Christopher
Lee fans have tried to dismiss this film from the official canon of
Hammer/Dracula films but that is impossible to do. This is a direct sequel
to HORROR OF DRACULA (DRACULA) and the opening monologue makes that very
clear. The is one of Hammer's most stylish vampire films making excellant
use of shadow and color hues. Richly atmospheric and certainly the most
erotic of the early Hammer vampire films. The recent remastering and release
of the film on laserdisc and video only enhances the beauty of this film. 85
minutes."

I was probably 11 or 12 when I saw this /the way God intended/ in the
drive-in in 1966 or 67. Kim Horrworth's parents drove IIRC. Triple
feature, of course.

Bill Akroid, fan of heaving cleavages evermore...

Mike Krueger wrote:
> Discovery Channel aired a TV documentary yesterday entitled, "The
> Science of Lance Armstrong". In one segment, Lance's longtime Belgian
> mechanic was profiled. He took the camera crew down into his "wine
> cellar", where he stores scores of tubular tires for the pro team. He
> had stacks of tires specifically designated for Paris-Roubaix, the
> other spring classics, and, of course, the Tour De France, for which he
> claimed the tubular tires had been specially *aging* for up to seven
> years to improve their performance characteristics. This guy's been a
> pro mechanic for 40 years, so he might know something about the
> subject.
> Comments?

First, I doubt Lance knows or cares. Second, if he 'ages' them, so
what? It sure doesn't hurt and I admire anybody that can have that many
to be able to age them..geeezzz, he must have hunderds. I wonder what
he's going to do with the extras when Lance retires in about 4 weeks.
I'll take 'em!!!

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >> Its obvious this "GURU" pro mechanic with 40 years of experience hasn't
> >> read the Bicycle FAQ:

I get a kick out of those that quote the FAQs chapter and verse as an
'answer' to something...as if being a FAQ makes it gospel.Some are, a
lot are not.

rruffrruff@yahoo.com wrote:
> This guy's been a
> > pro mechanic for 40 years, so he might know something about the
> > subject.
> > Comments?
>
> He may know very little about it, unless he has subjected his
> assumptions to a controlled test.

This is a fallacy. A controlled test is not the only way to "know"
something. Experience is another way. Experience may also
superstitiously reinforce invalid beliefs, but then so can a controlled
test if it includes an unaccounted-for extraneous variable or its
results are misinterpreted, and at best it gives a statistical degree
of confidence but not absolute certainty that the outcome of the test
represents some "reality".

Aging of tires seems of improbable value to me. Yet I have on occassion
had a tire that didn't get used for years after I bought it that seemed
to wear better without any discernable degradation in traction. I'm not
convinced that this question has been settled, so when I hear that a
pro team mechanic with 40 years exp. ages tires, I pay some attention
to it. It makes little difference to me- I usually drink my wine soon
after I buy it, and I buy a new tire because I need to use it.

On 29 Jun 2005 08:31:08 -0700,
SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net wrote:

>
>rruffrruff@yahoo.com wrote:
>> This guy's been a
>> > pro mechanic for 40 years, so he might know something about the
>> > subject.
>> > Comments?
>>
>> He may know very little about it, unless he has subjected his
>> assumptions to a controlled test.
>
>This is a fallacy. A controlled test is not the only way to "know"
>something. Experience is another way. Experience may also
>superstitiously reinforce invalid beliefs, but then so can a controlled
>test if it includes an unaccounted-for extraneous variable or its
>results are misinterpreted, and at best it gives a statistical degree
>of confidence but not absolute certainty that the outcome of the test
>represents some "reality".
>
>Aging of tires seems of improbable value to me. Yet I have on occassion
>had a tire that didn't get used for years after I bought it that seemed
>to wear better without any discernable degradation in traction. I'm not
>convinced that this question has been settled, so when I hear that a
>pro team mechanic with 40 years exp. ages tires, I pay some attention
>to it. It makes little difference to me- I usually drink my wine soon
>after I buy it, and I buy a new tire because I need to use it.

Dear SS,

When I ponder this notion of a mechanic supposedly aging
tires 7 years, it occurs to me that neither traction nor
wear matter much in the Tour de France.

As far as I know, Armstrong and the other riders aren't
testing the limits of traction much.

If their tires actually lost traction when cornering, they'd
probably fall.

They aren't doing panic stops with the rear wheel coming off
the ground, so the traction isn't likely a problem during
braking.

And they certainly aren't smoking the back tire and
fishtailing up the Alp d'Huez, so they don't need special
drag racer compounds to improve their ET's.

Rainy days are probably as close as we get to a real
traction test. It's fairly notorious that the Tour loafs
along and takes it easy when it's wet and cold.

The Tour is primarily a test of the motor, not the rubber.

If there's any data showing that 7-year-cicadas--er, tires
have a lower rolling resistance, that would be interesting,
but it's unlikely that the difference would amount to 10
seconds in a stage.

As for wear, it's hard to imagine a tire wearing out in a
single day's ride on pavement, or a Tour rider who couldn't
afford to replace it for the next stage.

In the Discovery program, the mechanic may have explained
what "performance characteristics" he thinks improve over
the years, but so far there's been nothing in this thread
more specific than that catch-all phrase in the original
post.

Does anyone know what specific "performance characteristics"
(if any) that the mechanic claimed were improved by sitting
in a cellar? Traction, wear, rolling resistance, fewer
flats, easier mounting? And if so, how much?

I suspect that what the mechanic's aging habit (if true)
tells us is that Armstrong does just about as well on an old
tire as a new one.

Carl Fogel

what we we do next year?

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

>
> When I ponder this notion of a mechanic supposedly aging
> tires 7 years, it occurs to me that neither traction nor
> wear matter much in the Tour de France.
>
> As far as I know, Armstrong and the other riders aren't
> testing the limits of traction much.


there will be plenty of pile-ups in the first week. If better traction
means the difference between staying upright and unsticking the sheets
the morning after, i'm sure Armstrong CS will have a preference!

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:56:03 -0600, carlfogel wrote:

> When I ponder this notion of a mechanic supposedly aging
> tires 7 years, it occurs to me that neither traction nor
> wear matter much in the Tour de France.
>
> As far as I know, Armstrong and the other riders aren't
> testing the limits of traction much.

Every time they take a corner fast, they are testing the limits of their
traction.
>
> If their tires actually lost traction when cornering, they'd probably
> fall.

Which certainly happens. If they weren't close to the limits, they would
not fall (except for when they hit gravel or water on a downhill turn).

>
> They aren't doing panic stops with the rear wheel coming off the ground,
> so the traction isn't likely a problem during braking.

Nor is it for anyone else. Cornering is the real issue.

> Rainy days are probably as close as we get to a real traction test. It's
> fairly notorious that the Tour loafs along and takes it easy when it's
> wet and cold.

You must have missed that time trial in '03.

>
> The Tour is primarily a test of the motor, not the rubber.
>
> If there's any data showing that 7-year-cicadas--er, tires have a lower
> rolling resistance, that would be interesting, but it's unlikely that
> the difference would amount to 10 seconds in a stage.

Although I doubt that aging tires is anything more than myth and lore, 10
seconds in a stage can be several places. 10 seconds per stage is 3
minutes overall, less than the winning margin of most Tours.

> Does anyone know what specific "performance characteristics" (if any)
> that the mechanic claimed were improved by sitting in a cellar?
> Traction, wear, rolling resistance, fewer flats, easier mounting? And if
> so, how much?

I aged some tires in my cellar. Nice tires, silk Clements. The tubes
rotted.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but
_`\(,_ | what canst thou say? -- George Fox.
(_)/ (_) |