my knee

Middle-aged, I started running lightly about 4 years ago
after I quit smoking. I started very slow, building up in
small increments until I was running a couple miles several
times a week. I had always been active for a smoker, doing
lots of walking and hiking and playing sports when I was
younger. I loved running but eventually I had to stop
because my left kneee hurt. It wasnt excruciating or
anything, just tender (ie I could have kept running) but I
didnt want to risk doing permanent damage so I stopped.
Several times I've started up again and each time the knee
pain starts. I do other strenuous activities, hockey,
rollerblading, bike riding, without getting pain or only
getting very mild pain that goes away within a day or two.
About the only other time I have significant trouble with
the knee is when I carry a lot of weight, like backpacking.
Actually, the pain originally started when I was working in
the mountains 15 years ago and carried a too-heavy pack down
a too-steep slope, when I wasnt in very good shape. But it
has only bothered me sporadically, in certain activities
since then.

I've tried to run "properly"--I run only on soft surfaces,
mostly dirt roads. I try to stay toward the middle when I
can, to avoid the cambered edges. I wear only high quality
shoes. I stretch thoroughly afterward, and to a lesser
degreee before. I warm up by walking first. But if I run,
even 1/2 mile, my knee will hurt for days or longer. The
pain moves around a bit, sometimes inside sometimes (but
mostly) outside, but is always at the lower edge of the knee
joint. I'm not carrying much excess body weight, I could
stand to lose a few pounds but thats about it. I do have
knees that hyperextend a bit (though not while running!),
and I've heard that such knees commonly have problems.

So I'm just wondering if there is anything else I can do
that I havent already. I havent run in months, and I finally
got an appointment with a good orthopedist for next week.
Since my knee works fine for the most part, I dont really
want to go into surgery just because of running. I wonder if
I'll ever be able to run again. I dont want much, only to be
able to run a couple miles a few times a week.

Try running in a knee brace, the elastic type that are
shaped like a tube, and fit snugly over the whole knee area.
See if that helps.

visionr42@fastmail.fm (VisionR42) wrote in message
news:<e19945ca.0407080604.5667d38d@posting.google.com>...
> Middle-aged, I started running lightly about 4 years ago
> after I quit smoking. I started very slow, building up in
> small increments until I was running a couple miles
> several times a week. I had always been active for a
> smoker, doing lots of walking and hiking and playing
> sports when I was younger. I loved running but eventually
> I had to stop because my left kneee hurt. It wasnt
> excruciating or anything, just tender (ie I could have
> kept running) but I didnt want to risk doing permanent
> damage so I stopped. Several times I've started up again
> and each time the knee pain starts. I do other strenuous
> activities, hockey, rollerblading, bike riding, without
> getting pain or only getting very mild pain that goes away
> within a day or two. About the only other time I have
> significant trouble with the knee is when I carry a lot of
> weight, like backpacking. Actually, the pain originally
> started when I was working in the mountains 15 years ago
> and carried a too-heavy pack down a too-steep slope, when
> I wasnt in very good shape. But it has only bothered me
> sporadically, in certain activities since then.
>
> I've tried to run "properly"--I run only on soft surfaces,
> mostly dirt roads. I try to stay toward the middle when I
> can, to avoid the cambered edges. I wear only high quality
> shoes. I stretch thoroughly afterward, and to a lesser
> degreee before. I warm up by walking first. But if I run,
> even 1/2 mile, my knee will hurt for days or longer. The
> pain moves around a bit, sometimes inside sometimes (but
> mostly) outside, but is always at the lower edge of the
> knee joint. I'm not carrying much excess body weight, I
> could stand to lose a few pounds but thats about it. I do
> have knees that hyperextend a bit (though not while
> running!), and I've heard that such knees commonly have
> problems.
>
> So I'm just wondering if there is anything else I can do
> that I havent already. I havent run in months, and I
> finally got an appointment with a good orthopedist for
> next week. Since my knee works fine for the most part, I
> dont really want to go into surgery just because of
> running. I wonder if I'll ever be able to run again. I
> dont want much, only to be able to run a couple miles a
> few times a week.

I'd look into the type of shoe you're wearing, if you are
wearing a shoe for pronaters and you don't, it'll cause
problems, and the other way around will also cause troubles
like you describe. Have you tried several types of shoe? And
for gods sakes, NO NIKES!

visionr42@fastmail.fm (VisionR42) wrote in message
news:<e19945ca.0407080604.5667d38d@posting.google.com>...
> Middle-aged, I started running lightly about 4 years ago
> after I quit smoking. I started very slow, building up in
> small increments until I was running a couple miles
> several times a week. I had always been active for a
> smoker, doing lots of walking and hiking and playing
> sports when I was younger. I loved running but eventually
> I had to stop because my left kneee hurt. It wasnt
> excruciating or anything, just tender (ie I could have
> kept running) but I didnt want to risk doing permanent
> damage so I stopped. Several times I've started up again
> and each time the knee pain starts. I do other strenuous
> activities, hockey, rollerblading, bike riding, without
> getting pain or only getting very mild pain that goes away
> within a day or two. About the only other time I have
> significant trouble with the knee is when I carry a lot of
> weight, like backpacking. Actually, the pain originally
> started when I was working in the mountains 15 years ago
> and carried a too-heavy pack down a too-steep slope, when
> I wasnt in very good shape. But it has only bothered me
> sporadically, in certain activities since then.
>
> I've tried to run "properly"--I run only on soft surfaces,
> mostly dirt roads. I try to stay toward the middle when I
> can, to avoid the cambered edges. I wear only high quality
> shoes. I stretch thoroughly afterward, and to a lesser
> degreee before. I warm up by walking first. But if I run,
> even 1/2 mile, my knee will hurt for days or longer. The
> pain moves around a bit, sometimes inside sometimes (but
> mostly) outside, but is always at the lower edge of the
> knee joint. I'm not carrying much excess body weight, I
> could stand to lose a few pounds but thats about it. I do
> have knees that hyperextend a bit (though not while
> running!), and I've heard that such knees commonly have
> problems.
>
> So I'm just wondering if there is anything else I can do
> that I havent already. I havent run in months, and I
> finally got an appointment with a good orthopedist for
> next week. Since my knee works fine for the most part, I
> dont really want to go into surgery just because of
> running. I wonder if I'll ever be able to run again. I
> dont want much, only to be able to run a couple miles a
> few times a week.

Jogging caused your injury..... You're aware that jogging
causes your injury.....And yet you want nothing more than to
jog. This reminds me of my Father-in-law who even though he
was literally suffocating with emphasema, continued to
smoke................because he enjoyed it so. He was
deluded too.

Good to know that you will see a doctor. When I got knee
problem 7 to 10 years ago, I tried to "fix" the problem
myself, and I probably made the situation worse by treating
it the wrong way (doing a lot of leg extension when I should
not have done that). I finally had a doctor to take care of
my knee ....

Currently I need to wear knee braces when I run in order to
avoid knee pain. The knee braces are not the same as what
are being sold in store. They are more rigid and must be
tightened up really good with Velcro strips.

Hope your doctor will be able to tell you what went wrong
and what to
do.

Jay Chan

danglingdingleberrys@hotmail.com (Dangling) wrote in message news:<abcc5b97.0407081208.647ac745@posting.google.com>...
> Try running in a knee brace, the elastic type that are
> shaped like a tube, and fit snugly over the whole knee
> area. See if that helps.

I should have mentioned, but I've tried that. It makes it
hurt less when I'm running, but doesnt prevent it from
hurting afterwards. Thanks

danglingdingleberrys@hotmail.com (Dangling) wrote in message news:<abcc5b97.0407081210.dd8f07d@posting.google.com>...
> I'd look into the type of shoe you're wearing, if you are
> wearing a shoe for pronaters and you don't, it'll cause
> problems, and the other way around will also cause
> troubles like you describe. Have you tried several types
> of shoe? And for gods sakes, NO NIKES!

I hate Nikes anyway. The last pair of shoes I bought were
North face trail runners, since I run on soft surfaces (but
rarely trails). But I had trouble before I wore those. As
far as I can tell I dont pronate or supinate excessively.

I also never run downhill. I've wanted to test if it hurts
when I run uphill, but there arent many hills where I live
now. I'd be willing to move to the mountains if I could run
uphill without pain.

I havent experimented with many different shoes, so thats a
possibility (though an expensive one)

visionr42@fastmail.fm (VisionR42) wrote in message news:<e19945ca.0407082036.2108c80b@posting.google.com>...
> I havent experimented with many different shoes, so thats
> a possibility (though an expensive one)

Between that, and a visit to the chiropractor (misalignment
could very well be the culprit) to be checkled out, I'm at a
loss. If all those things have been tried, then try a few
LSD runs. What is the longest you've run on it? You
defeniately need to get some hills into your regimen,
running downhill won't hurt you as long as you don't do it
too much. Sounds like you need some variety, because I know
if I run on nothing but flat surfaces my knees hurt.

I'm no expert but I may have some advice for you. You said
it mostly hurts on the outside....sounds like it could be
supination or not enough stretching of the IT band. Also,
since it is probably inflamed - have you been massaging the
area with ice?

I recently ran a fast 5K and 10K back to back and my knee
now has pain where I have to stop and walk after 2 miles
running on the street. But, I can run 5 miles easy on the
treadmill with no problem at all and get a great aerobic
workout - no knee pain. As far as I can tell, the treadmill
has a LOT more give than the asphalt or dirt. If the
treadmill is on a surface that gives (not concrete) that may
help even more.

I'm going to do a lot more treadmill work to keep my aerobic
base up while allowing my knee to heal. I'm starting to
massage it with ice more but I'm not noticing the injury as
much since I have completely decreased my running off the
street and switched to mostly treadmill and some track and
dirt for now. Seems to be working for me but if things take
a turn for the worse I'll see an ortho and/or a chiropractor
who specializes in sports medicine.

good luck to you

Mike

>> I'm no expert but I may have some advice for you. You
>> said it mostly hurts
on the outside....sounds like it could be supination or not
enough stretching of the IT band. <<

You may need less motion-control support from your
shoes. The last time I purchased shoes, I was still
looking for something to adequately replace New Balance
854's, which had worked pretty well for me. Since then
I'd tried NB 855 and NB 765 but both were giving me
moderate shin splints and knee pain, both on the
outside of my leg. The guy at Luke's Locker in Dallas,
hearing my tale of woe, had me walk around barefoot
then fitted me with ASICS Gel Cumulus. He watched me
run in them and said it looked good; I've had them for
about two weeks and so far my legs feel better than
they have for a long time. The key to what he said,
which I'm taking as a general rule of thumb and not
necessarily as true in all cases, is that if you're
getting pain on the outside of your leg, you are
underpronating and if you're wearing any sort of
stability or motion-control shoe, you shouldn't be. I
don't know that he's correct but it seems to working
well for me so far. I'll leave it to the more
knowledgable people here to say how much truth there is
in what I was told.

Mike

"VisionR42" <visionr42@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:e19945ca.0407080604.5667d38d@posting.google.com...
> Middle-aged, I started running lightly about 4 years ago
> after I quit smoking. I started very slow, building up in
> small increments until I was running a couple miles
> several times a week. I had always been active for a
> smoker, doing lots of walking and hiking and playing
> sports when I was younger. I loved running but eventually
> I had to stop because my left kneee hurt. It wasnt
> excruciating or anything, just tender (ie I could have
> kept running) but I didnt want to risk doing permanent
> damage so I stopped. Several times I've started up again
> and each time the knee pain starts. I do other strenuous
> activities, hockey, rollerblading, bike riding, without
> getting pain or only getting very mild pain that goes away
> within a day or two. About the only other time I have
> significant trouble with the knee is when I carry a lot of
> weight, like backpacking. Actually, the pain originally
> started when I was working in the mountains 15 years ago
> and carried a too-heavy pack down a too-steep slope, when
> I wasnt in very good shape. But it has only bothered me
> sporadically, in certain activities since then.
>
> I've tried to run "properly"--I run only on soft surfaces,
> mostly dirt roads. I try to stay toward the middle when I
> can, to avoid the cambered edges. I wear only high quality
> shoes. I stretch thoroughly afterward, and to a lesser
> degreee before. I warm up by walking first. But if I run,
> even 1/2 mile, my knee will hurt for days or longer. The
> pain moves around a bit, sometimes inside sometimes (but
> mostly) outside, but is always at the lower edge of the
> knee joint. I'm not carrying much excess body weight, I
> could stand to lose a few pounds but thats about it. I do
> have knees that hyperextend a bit (though not while
> running!), and I've heard that such knees commonly have
> problems.
>
> So I'm just wondering if there is anything else I can do
> that I havent already. I havent run in months, and I
> finally got an appointment with a good orthopedist for
> next week. Since my knee works fine for the most part, I
> dont really want to go into surgery just because of
> running. I wonder if I'll ever be able to run again. I
> dont want much, only to be able to run a couple miles a
> few times a week.

You need to be more specific for the orthopedist (and for
us) about where the pain is. I'll guess it's behind the
kneecap, probably more medially (to the inner side) than
laterally (to the outside), particularly since you also had
it backpacking. Runner's knee - very common. If that is so,
exercises to strengthen the quadriceps muscle - the big
thigh muscle in front - may help a lot, to strengthen the
supporting muscles around the knee and kneecap. I.e. wall
squats - back against a wall, squat down with feet out from
wall a few feet, like you are sitting in a chair but with no
seat and only the wall as the back of the chair. Work up to
2 minutes. Also, try steps - leg you wish to strengthen on a
step, facing the wall rather than up or down the stairs.
Dangle the other leg over the edge of the stair (move close
to the edge of the stair if you need to) and bend the
standing leg, until the non-weight bearing leg just touches
the ground, then straighten the standing leg back up. Your
orthopedist may suggest other exercises. I had bad problems
with my knee when starting out running - these and a few
other exercises from my orthopod took care of this. I don't
need to do them anymore, now that my thighs have
strengthened up (I do plenty of hill running).

Margaret