running -) lower calf pain - Page 2

In article <b7da6ab5.0304201956.76e5b299@posting.google.com>, jkmsg <jkmsg@nwol.net> wrote:

> Not to sound smart, but are you waiting for it to become acute?

:O) A thoughtful question. No, I'm not one to hammer away at such injuries, small as they may be,
until I'm lame or need sticks to walk.

> Injuries are tricky and can't be diagnosed via the internet. If they could, that would put the
> medical profession pretty much out of business.

Good point! There is a lot of useful information out there, but no substitute for knowledge and
experience on the spot. There is a range of skill in this area though, even amongst "qualified
professionals" :O)

> Difficult if not impossible to tell without a proper diagnosis. Keep running? Well let me see...
> It's RICE (REST Incline Compression and Elevation)...the key is REST... just remember they work as
> a coherant element - not pick and choose the one's you want do... that may not work (uh, it
> probably will not work is more correct). So, keep running... doesn't sound like rest to me.

Apologies --I didn't give enough information. I'm running three times per week or so, and today the
pain is pretty much gone. I know this doesn't mean much right now, as if I went out for a run today,
I'd probably find myself in the same situation (or worse) as yesterday. What I plan to do is wait
another day, then do a shorter run without incline, and stop at the slightest hint that something's
not right (could be less than pain ... for example, tightening in the area where there was pain).

> Assumptions are dangerous. If you think it is insignificant... then just RICE. It that doesn't
> work... then see a physician. Stretching warming up are good solutions to preventing injury. You
> already have an injury... Stretching could be compounding the problem. Warming up
> - well, that's not rest (now is it).

I think it's a matter of degree of rest required with this injury.

> Might work... what's your base training level? What your Max. HR. or VO2 max.?

Don't know about VO2 max, but max HR is around 185.

> What your orignal standard for effort (i.e., HR) for constant activity ratio?

Don't know -- how to measure this?

At rest it's 47/48.

> If you want to build up to faster and better runs... you need to learn the value of rest. Most
> improvement occurs with recovery. Recovery is the least understood and most underestimated part of
> training.

Noted.

Thanks Joe.

Robin

In article <slrnba6ftj.iqi.abuse@panix2.panix.com>, Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:

> The main advantage of the treadmill is convenience. It is useful if it is too cold or dark unsafe
> to run outside.

Yes this is the correct background.

> The treadmill will not help you pace yourself IMO (I find my ability to pace myself is shot
> after a few weeks of treadmill running), though it will help ensure that your workouts go at the
> right pace.

This is interesting. One thing I initially found about the treadmill is that it helped me pace
myself. This will need to be compared again with some outdoor running pretty soon. The paced outdoor
running is the goal anyway :O)

Cheers

Robin

In article <kKCcnUnm07fbxz6jXTWcoA@aros.net>, Dave Andersen <dga@no.spam.pobox.com> wrote:

> For marathon training at the paces this person is describing, three hours is pretty reasonable -
> that's < 15 miles. For an every other week run in the months before a marathon, perfectly good
> goal to build up to. If the goal is to improve in general running fitness, I agree with you;
> better to do more 1.5-2 hour long runs and not destroy yourself with a 3 hour run.

Thanks for this Dave. I've scaled back to the 1.5-2 hour length for now as you've suggested as
when I'm there I will then have more data/exp/etc. to make a my decision as to whether I go
further from there.

Cheers

Robin

Spinning is useless waste of time.

utthita@hotmail.com (Bill) wrote in message news:<57d551ba.0304210557.816cec8@posting.google.com>...
> Try a spinning class at your local gym.
>
> Spinning can do wonders for minor pains in the lower leg, and serves as a respectable complement
> to running.

You've obviously missed the point of yoga.

"Roger Hunter" <ronin11@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<b80uuk$512oi$1@ID-163600.news.dfncis.de>...
> "Tom Henderson" <TomH_4th@BellSouth.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns93644FD4C90F3TomH4thBellSouthnet@65.82.44.187...
> > > "David" <user@host.com> wrote in message news:user-E2DE69.08100321042003@news.eastlink.ca...
>
> > >> One word... Yoga.
>
> > > Two words... is pointless.
>
> > Can either of you string a few more words together to justify your positions?
>
> Not me. My distrust of Yoga is based on a deep loathing of all four-letter words that start with
> the letter "Y".
>
>
> Roger. <Yup, I'm bored again

"Dr. Steven Walker" <ecce_rules@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2fd5a562.0304211112.29f2b130@posting.google.com...

> You've obviously missed the point of yoga.

Which is, ecce?

In article <2fd5a562.0304211114.5f1608e8@posting.google.com>, Dr. Steven Walker
<ecce_rules@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Spinning is useless waste of time.

What would you suggest insead Steve (just asking!).

TIA

Robin

robin benson <robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<210420031916241148%robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk>...
> In article <b7da6ab5.0304201956.76e5b299@posting.google.com>, jkmsg <jkmsg@nwol.net> wrote:
>

Snip

> > Might work... what's your base training level? What your Max. HR. or VO2 max.?
>
> Don't know about VO2 max, but max HR is around 185.
>

That's a good start (knowing your Max HR - provided it's accurate)... to build a base you should
keep your HR at or about 70-75 (for some 80% is acceptable - but, not likely good for 95% of
athletes). Stay at that HR for longer periods of time... that sometimes referred to as volume
building. Now... before you say what almost everyone else notes...yes, it will feel like your not
working out. That is correct, you are not breaking down tissue to the point that recovery is slow.
The key is to stay at a low HR for longer periods of time (called aerobic training). Fatique comes
from depletion of oxygen stores in the muscle group...NOT, breaking down of muscle tissue with
oxygen depletion (called anaerobic training). Anaerobic training occurs at higher HR's (80-85% of
Max HR). That should be done sparingly. And rest (even if you feel you don't need it) should follow.
Continuing to train after aerobic training is usually when injuries occure.

> > What your orignal standard for effort (i.e., HR) for constant activity ratio?
>
> Don't know -- how to measure this?
>
> At rest it's 47/48.
>

This has nothing to do with resting HR. What I'm describing is a standard to determine improvement.
Improvement comes with increasing intensity with less effort. For example, Run a 1 mile course and
note the time and your average HR (note: you need a HRM - if you don't have, you need to get one).
Of course, any distance besides 1 mile can be choosen - longer distance benchmarks usually require
longer running courses. This course needs to be on a track (preferably an indoor track) or in any
enviroment that is CONSTANT (both in distance, location, ran at same time of day, temperature, wind,
humidity etc.)

Take the time ran and divide it by the Average HR for the distance ran. This is the ratio I
described.

As you improve you will be able to run the same distance with a faster time AND WITH A LOWER
AVERAGE HR. Without the lower average HR for same constant distance, you are not improving
regardless of your run time. The key is to run efficiently not just fast. Efficiency in running
skills are determined by how large of an aerobic base you have. How fast you run is determined by
how much pain (and how fast you can recover) you can endure. Eventually, you will find that base
building is the key... not how much anaerobic (high HR) workout you can endure. No pain, no gain
training is a fallacy.

This method can be used for swimming, biking or any aerobic sport.

> > If you want to build up to faster and better runs... you need to learn the value of rest. Most
> > improvement occurs with recovery. Recovery is the least understood and most underestimated part
> > of training.
>
> Noted.
>
> Thanks Joe.
>
> Robin

Hope this helps... BTW, efficiency of aerobic capacity is much more crucial for multi-sport and
endurance sport athletes.

Joe Moya

"Itchy Sanchez" <itchysanchez@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3d042144.0304220403.73da6967@posting.google.com...

Terribly sore. And yours?

Roger.

In article <b7da6ab5.0304211850.16191dcb@posting.google.com>, jkmsg <jkmsg@nwol.net> wrote:

> Hope this helps... BTW, efficiency of aerobic capacity is much more crucial for multi-sport and
> endurance sport athletes.

Thanks Joe for the useful info. Looking at getting a HR monitor now ... :O)

Cheers

Robin

The stillpoint.

"Roger Hunter" <ronin11@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<b81gg4$5d8te$1@ID-163600.news.dfncis.de>...
> "Dr. Steven Walker" <ecce_rules@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:2fd5a562.0304211112.29f2b130@posting.google.com...
>
> > You've obviously missed the point of yoga.
>
> Which is, ecce?

In article <210420031916210969%robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk>, robin benson wrote:
> In article <slrnba6ftj.iqi.abuse@panix2.panix.com>, Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> The main advantage of the treadmill is convenience. It is useful if it is too cold or dark unsafe
>> to run outside.
>
> Yes this is the correct background.
>
>> The treadmill will not help you pace yourself IMO (I find my ability to pace myself is shot
>> after a few weeks of treadmill running), though it will help ensure that your workouts go at the
>> right pace.
>
> This is interesting. One thing I initially found about the treadmill is that it helped me pace
> myself. This will need to be compared again with some outdoor running pretty soon. The paced
> outdoor running is the goal anyway :O)

The best way to learn to pace yourself is to run intervals on a track or if you don't have a track,
a measured course. The simplest (and a very inexpensive) way to measure a course is to use a
calibrated bicycle speedometer (this is the method suggested in the USATF guidelines)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

In article <210420031916180768%robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk>, robin benson wrote:

> In article <slrnba6ghb.iqi.abuse@panix2.panix.com>, Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> You need to do some reading on running injuries and try to work out what it
>> is. Apply the appropriate treatment for that injury (tendon injuries usually require ice, for
>> example) It's hard to tell from your description.
>
> I don't think it's the tendon, but can't be sure. Today, it's almost gone, so the amount of damage
> may not be that great.

Looks like it was a calf problem. Which is good (a tendon problem would probably give you
more downtime)

> This was my default position. I'm giving it a rest, and the next run will be shorter and better
> prepared in terms of stretching.
>
>> Don't run on an incline. Beware of overly cushioned treadmills.
>
> OK. For the sake of interest, why avoid an incline? Are you saying avoid inclines while the injury
> is present, in general, or just on treadmills?

Running on inclines increases the amount of stress on your calf muscles. So it's more likely to
result in calf or achilles tendon problems. If you're prone to either of these things, you need to
avoid running on inclines excessively.

Given your injury, I'd suggest not necessarily getting rid of inclines, but at least don't run on
inclines all the time.

>> You can't stretch tendons. Stretching your calves is a good idea, but I doubt that doing the
>> stretching before a run will help besides providing general flexibility benefits
>
> I figured I'll pay more attention to stretching my calves as they've probably contracted somewhat
> since I've been doing the longer runs.

I see. Be careful when increasing milage. If this is really the problem, it's a sign you increased
milage a little too fast. The way to address this would be to temporarily back off, and gradually
increase your distance again.

> [background, for what it's worth -- ignore as required!] I'm 175cm (5'8"?) and about 96kg (down
> from 100kg six weeks ago). My estimation is that I should be 85-90kg -- I've got quite hefty legs,
> and am generally stocky. I eat a healthy diet.

At this weight, it's probably a good thing that you're cross-training. It might be worth trying to
drop some weight before you plan big increases in training volume -- the drop in weight will both
improve your performance (at distance running), and make you less injury-prone.

I speak from experience here, having tried running at 210lb and running at
140lb. It really is easier to run fast and harder to get injured at 140lb (in fat at that weight I
could use any old brain-damaged training protocol and not get injured)

Controlling weight is mostly about diet -- even if you stick to your weight training regimen and
swimming, you will lose weight if you eat below maintenance.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Someone requested that I string more than two words together with regards to Yoga. I would have done
that in the first place, but I've mentioned Yoga on rec.running a number of times in the past and
was concerned about sounding like a broken record. But since you asked...

First of all, the form of Yoga I find most beneficial is Ashtanga. This is often called "Power Yoga"
and it is a vigorous form of "flow" Yoga which, in my experience, yields results very quickly
(expect to sweat). It is also extremely good for upper body strength. The form of Yoga you choose
however depends a lot on your personality. Iyengar is another very popular style. It is very slow
and gentle and is mainly concerned with proper alignment (no sweating involved). Any style you
choose though will give you many great benefits... physical, emotional and mental.

I would say that there are four main physical benefits... strength (especially upper body... back
and shoulders), flexibility, balance and core stability. Of those, the two which will benefit your
running the most are probably flexibility and core stability.

As for injury prevention, if you accept that flexibility reduces the risk of injury, then you should
try Yoga. There's no better way to increase your flexibility. It's simply amazing.

I will share with you two things from my own experience.

First... when I started yoga I could barely touch my toes. I'd been running for over a year and
always did my stretches, but those runners stretches are... to be frank... child's play compared to
Yoga. Yoga also teaches you HOW to stretch. Sometimes my teacher will just say some little thing
like "ok... now with your feet in that position, try pushing your heels together" and then suddenly
you REALLY feel a stretch and it's like "Ahh... now I get it!". Anyway... again... I'd been
stretching for a year... after my runs... but could barely touch my toes. Within 6 weeks of doing
Ashtanga, I could place my palms flat down on the floor beside my feet with perfectly straight legs.

Second... in my very first Yoga class I was surprised to discover that my left calf and hamstring
were a LOT tighter than my right. I discovered this in a pose called "downward facing dog". In this
pose, you make an inverted "V" with your body... palms on the floor in front of you... feet on the
floor in back of you... sit bones high in the air. Check out this link to see what I mean...

http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/491_1.cfm

The first time I tried this pose, my left heel was a good 6 inches off the floor while my right heel
was just an inch or so off the floor! The old "wall push" runners stretch would have never revealed
this imbalance to me. Within a few weeks of doing the Ashtanga, I had both heels flat on the floor.

That's actually another great benefit of Yoga... it balances out the strength and flexibility of
both sides of your body. In some cases, it can take years to even out these imbalances... but
eventually you do gain that balance. For instance, my right hip is MUCH tighter than my left
(another thing which Yoga revealed to me). I've been doing Ashtanga now for close to 8 months and
I'm only now starting to see that right hip loosen up a bit.

Also, I mentioned core stability earlier. It's great for that too... which can only help your
running. I dropped into a stability ball class a few weeks ago for the first time (I've always
been curious about the stability ball) and I have to say that... at the risk of sounding
boastful... I found the entire class to be... well... a joke. I had no problem with any of the
exercises we did. And I was always choosing the most 'advanced' option the teacher was offering.
I'm sure that's from the Yoga.

Anyway... I could go on and on and on but I've already blabbed on enough. Suffice it to say that
Yoga is, I think, the best way to increase your flexibility. So if you believe that flexibility
reduces the risk of injury, then you should try it out. Those 10 minutes or so of running stretches
are nothing compared to what Yoga could do for you. By the way, most of those running stretches are
actually simplified versions of Yoga poses... so why not do the 'real thing' instead? I'd
recommend either Ashtanga (Power Yoga) or Bikram styles... but choose whatever style suits you best.
Also, most places will let you do a one-time drop in for a small fee... so you can try it out first
to see if you like it.
--
David Nova Scotia, Canada.

In article <slrnbaakbs.5ai.abuse@panix2.panix.com>, Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:

> Looks like it was a calf problem. Which is good (a tendon problem would probably give you more
> downtime)

Yes I think (hope) you're correct. This morning I managed a 3km run at 12kmph (as opposed to 8km at
8kmph). It went well, with no ache or pain at all in the calf.

> Running on inclines increases the amount of stress on your calf muscles. So it's more likely to
> result in calf or achilles tendon problems. If you're prone to either of these things, you need to
> avoid running on inclines excessively.

I'll be paying more attention in future to incline.

> I see. Be careful when increasing milage. If this is really the problem, it's a sign you increased
> milage a little too fast. The way to address this would be to temporarily back off, and gradually
> increase your distance again.

I'd agree with this. I'll be making it more gradual ...

> At this weight, it's probably a good thing that you're cross-training.

Keeps me sane too :O)

> It might be worth trying to drop some weight before you plan big increases in training volume --
> the drop in weight will both improve your performance (at distance running), and make you less
> injury-prone.

Yes indeed. Actually, one of the reasons for the longer runs was to assist with this, but it's
risky. I heard that the body starts burning reserves after sustained exertion for 40 mins, I wanted
to get over this.

> I speak from experience here, having tried running at 210lb and running at
> 140lb. It really is easier to run fast and harder to get injured at 140lb (in fat at that weight I
> could use any old brain-damaged training protocol and not get injured)

Man, you lost some serious weight to come down from almost where I am to a little over two
thirds that.

> Controlling weight is mostly about diet -- even if you stick to your weight training regimen and
> swimming, you will lose weight if you eat below maintenance.

I eat a healthy diet, content-wise, but probably end up eating too much due to all the exercise :O)

Cheers

Robin