Would appreciate any comments that anybody can make!

I've recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up to
5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour (8km)
runs -- I find the slower pace allows me to keep going.

During the second-to-last run, I put the incline up slightly on the machine, and noticed a niggling
feeling in my left calf.

Over the last run today, the niggling feeling turned into a dull pain -- quite slight, but it's got
a little (not much) worse over the day today since the run this morning.

The pain isn't acute (yet?), but localised within the muscle just below my calf or in the very lower
part of my calf.

QUESTION:

What is this most likey to be, and what should I be doing to not make it worse? I'd like to keep on
with the running!

I assume this is a sprained or stressed lower-calf injury, however slight, and that I should take it
easy at the next run and stop if I begin to notice the pain setting in. Also, I should be taking
more time than I'm taking to stretch before running (heard that before?), especially the calf area
but also archilles.

What about running on machines vs. running on ground/road/grass/up+down hills?

I'd like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM.

TIA for any thoughts, perspectives, experiences, etc.!

Best wishes

Robin

robin benson wrote:
>
> Would appreciate any comments that anybody can make!

Yes - you added an incline and your calf muscles/tendons started to hurt. I'd take this seriously,
go back to flat running or no running at all until you don't feel the pain any longer, then
introduce hills in the way the occur in natural - for short amounts of time. You can make them
longer as you get used to running uphill. Could be muscles, could be Achilles tendon, could even be
plantar fascia.

Stretch your calves regularly after running, especially when you do hills. Try to end the run on a
flat section for enough time to allow things to return to normal.

8km/hour is about 5 miles/hour, which is about 12 minutes per mile, which is very slow - I can walk
that fast. Even if you can't run non-stop, I would not do the bulk of my running this slowly. Do
shorter runs then do a one-hour run once per week, no more often, for now at least. 20-40 minutes
for a regular run is fine, stopping and starting is fine, varying the pace is great.

Outside is better than a treadmill in every way possible, save the ability to run a precise speed
over constant terrain, a useless skill if you ask me.

-S-

> I've recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up
> to 5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour
> (8km) runs -- I find the slower pace allows me to keep going.
>
> During the second-to-last run, I put the incline up slightly on the machine, and noticed a
> niggling feeling in my left calf.
>
> Over the last run today, the niggling feeling turned into a dull pain -- quite slight, but it's
> got a little (not much) worse over the day today since the run this morning.
>
> The pain isn't acute (yet?), but localised within the muscle just below my calf or in the very
> lower part of my calf.
>
> QUESTION:
>
> What is this most likey to be, and what should I be doing to not make it worse? I'd like to keep
> on with the running!
>
> I assume this is a sprained or stressed lower-calf injury, however slight, and that I should take
> it easy at the next run and stop if I begin to notice the pain setting in. Also, I should be
> taking more time than I'm taking to stretch before running (heard that before?), especially the
> calf area but also archilles.
>
> What about running on machines vs. running on ground/road/grass/up+down hills?
>
> I'd like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM.
>
> TIA for any thoughts, perspectives, experiences, etc.!
>
> Best wishes
>
> Robin

In article <3EA33514.63BDCFF3@fridayscomputer.com>, Steve Freides wrote:
> robin benson wrote:

[ good stuff snipped for brevity ]

> Outside is better than a treadmill in every way possible, save the ability to run a precise speed
> over constant terrain, a useless skill if you ask me.

The main advantage of the treadmill is convenience. It is useful if it is too cold or dark unsafe to
run outside.

The treadmill will not help you pace yourself IMO (I find my ability to pace myself is shot after a
few weeks of treadmill running), though it will help ensure that your workouts go at the right pace.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

In article <200420032245188398%robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk>, robin benson wrote:
> Would appreciate any comments that anybody can make!
>
> I've recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up
> to 5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour
> (8km) runs -- I find the slower pace allows me to keep going.
>
> During the second-to-last run, I put the incline up slightly on the machine, and noticed a
> niggling feeling in my left calf.

You need to do some reading on running injuries and try to work out what it
is. Apply the appropriate treatment for that injury (tendon injuries usually require ice, for
example) It's hard to tell from your description.

> Over the last run today, the niggling feeling turned into a dull pain -- quite slight, but it's
> got a little (not much) worse over the day today since the run this morning.

Stop running for a couple of days, then you'll need to re-evaluate your program when you return. In
fact it might be a good idea to do some sort of other exercise instead (like the bike or elliptical)
for the next week or so.

> What is this most likey to be, and what should I be doing to not make it worse? I'd like to keep
> on with the running!

Don't run on an incline. Beware of overly cushioned treadmills.

> I assume this is a sprained or stressed lower-calf injury, however slight, and that I should take
> it easy at the next run and stop if I begin to notice the pain setting in. Also, I should be
> taking more time than I'm taking to stretch before running (heard that before?), especially the
> calf area but also archilles.

You can't stretch tendons. Stretching your calves is a good idea, but I doubt that doing the
stretching before a run will help besides providing general flexibility benefits

> What about running on machines vs. running on ground/road/grass/up+down hills?

Running on treadmills is fine if you can take the boredom. Different treadmills have different
levels of shock absorbtion, like different running surfaces. Really soft surfaces put more stress on
your calves (for example, running on the beach). Really hard surfaces increase the stress on your
knees. Running uphills puts more stress on your calves and achilles tendons, and running downhill
puts more stress on your knees.

For you I'd suggest running on a firm surface and avoiding steep inclines (up or downhill)

> I'd like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM.

Runs of this duration are rare even among well trained marathon runners. The usual "long run" is of
1 hour to 2 hours duration (closer to 2 hours with more experienced runners)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for
details. ]]

In article <200420032245188398%robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk>, robin benson
<robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The pain isn't acute (yet?), but localised within the muscle just below my calf or in the very
> lower part of my calf.
>
> QUESTION:
>
> What is this most likey to be, and what should I be doing to not make it worse? I'd like to keep
> on with the running!
>
> I assume this is a sprained or stressed lower-calf injury, however slight, and that I should take
> it easy at the next run and stop if I begin to notice the pain setting in. Also, I should be
> taking more time than I'm taking to stretch before running (heard that before?), especially the
> calf area but also archilles.
>
> What about running on machines vs. running on ground/road/grass/up+down hills?
>
> I'd like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM.
>
> TIA for any thoughts, perspectives, experiences, etc.! Best wishes Robin

Dealing With And Preventing Injuries To Calf Muscles

A look at ways to prevent injury to your calves. Thoughts about what it means to stretch properly.
Ways to massage out the calves to release knots and remove excess strain and tension. A dialogue to
become friends with your calves and not strain your relationship with them

Dealing With And Preventing Injuries To Calf Muscles by Austin Gontang, September 27, 2000

A Folkloric Core Dump On Calves: A Dialogue in Progress
c. 2000 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. & Denny Anderson

Paul Doughty wrote to rec.running::

> >I have tried to start back running several times over the past couple of years. I will begin by
> >running 2 or 3 miles a day but within 3 weeks I have always injured my calf (it has occurred to
> >both my left and right calf). My calf will feel fine and then with one stride there will be a
> >sharp pain right in the middle of my calf. Even if I stop immediately, it takes at least 3 weeks
> >before the pain will go away.

Sylvan Smyth answered:

> Have you gone for any really deep massage? Maybe try Ozzie G's calf plan: lots of rolling. I use a
> Stick(tm), because I got one as a present, but a rolling pin works just as well. See if you can
> find some knots in there, and just grind them out. Whatever it takes, thumbs, knuckles, elbows...
>
>
> Sylvan Smyth

This got me thinking and I brought together my thoughts over the past 20+ years as a beginning to
sharing my folklore about calves and running and injuries to calves.

As mentioned in an earlier post, your calves are being stretched more because there's lower heel
lift in a running flat. The problem is that the calf to protect itself will contract...and then the
fascia shortens around that portion of the shortened calf, and then the tension caused by the calf
only being able to partially stretch to its full tonic state will begin to pull on the tendons. The
tendons will take it for a while and then they'll start to get irritated.

You'll do some stretching as recommended by many and you'll find that you now begin to strain the
muscle fibers around either side of the knotted muscle encapsulated by the tightened fascia. The
end result is that the stretching most, likely improper, ( you can't stretch a weight bearing
muscle) will allow the overstretched muscle fibers to shorten to protect themselves...and they'll
join the knotted area. And then people will tell you that it's because of the fact you've run in
racing flats.

1. The up against the wall stretch where you push one leg back to stretch the calf is improper if
you can lift up your front foot. If you can lift up your front foot, the weight is on the back
leg, and therefore the back leg is weight bearing...and the calf can't be stretched. Feels great
but it's like opening your hand and trying to close it at the same time. Great isometric strain.

If you're up against the wall keep the weight on the front foot so that you can lift up the back
foot at any time. Stretch away from the back foot as if it's nailed to the ground and you're
attempting to pull the foot out of the nailed down shoe When you do that, then you'd be
stretching the calf.

Doing the heels off the curb in my mind's eye is causing the same problem. Once you're taking the
calves beyond the stretch reflex and if the fascia around the muscle won't let go, you end up
straining good muscle fiber and tendon.

Therefore here's a reason for using the railing to massage out the calves. Transverse Friction,
that is rolling the calf from side to side over the belly of the muscle to gradually work the
fascia and the knotted muscle (often referred to as adhesions [for the fascia] and scarred
microtears of the muscle).

Check out the picture: http://www.mindfulness.com/of1.asp for massaging the calf muscle. In that
article you'll realize that most Achilles tendon problems are calf problems. The Achilles problem is
the result the calf being too tight or knotted and unable to go through it's normal range of motion.

Also work out the anterior shin on the bar. Face the bar and turn your body 45 degrees. Put the
closest shin upon the bar and start making a small circle with the foot as you slide down the shin.
Often the shin may be overworked with the running in the racing flats. The reason for working out
the shin is that if the shin can't relax, the calf has to work against a semi-contracted muscle
which makes the calf strain all the more.

With the idea that Denny Anderson has been passing on about the short quick steps to work on form,
it may be that if you're overstriding the strain on the calves is due to the vertical lift and the
immediate deceleration as the landing foot touches down. I'd use Denny's technique to practice. He
mentions running on eggs, I think he meant egg shells so softly that you wouldn't break them or like
Caine upon the rice paper in Kung Fu style so no tears occur...or an image I use is running on a
extremely hot surface so that you are always focused on lifting up you foot as soon as it touches
ball/heel. The heel lightly touches and is instantly lifted up because your center of gravity is in
front of the foot as it lands under you

Picture yourself going "ahh, ahh, ahh, ahh," lifting your feet off the ground the instant the heel
of the ball/heel touches. Remember that the heel must be touching as it is the platform of the ball
AND heel from which the rest of the body is catapulted forward.

It would be the reflex you'd have when you touch your finger to an iron just before ironing to see
if it's hot, and the reflex pulls your finger away so fast because while you thought it was just
warming up, it was ironing hot.

Following in the footsteps of Denny and others, running in racing flats can be helpful to improving
your running style and becoming aware of how you land to become lighter on your feet...and therefore
the rest of your lower legs and then the rest of your body.

If you saw the Boston finish over the last few miles, you saw the way the upper torso leaned forward
on one of the Kenyans, to the erect posture of the other Kenyan. Minimal vertical lift, the foot
landing under the center of gravity, and keeping the body propelled forward in its fall at a 5 or
sub-5 pace.

If you learn to run lightly, you'll have a great time running fast. Flexibility will be your biggest
aid in getting faster once you learn the rapid turnover of the 180 steps/minute.

Remember when the foot touches the ground it should not stop the body but is like the pushing foot
of a skateboarder as he or she maintains a steady speed or accelerates. Or in crew, if you watch the
coxswain, his or her body glides forward when the rowers are maintaining the constant speed or
accelerating. If you see the coxswain jerking back and forth you know that every time the oars are
put in the water they're slowing the boat and then powering it ahead. You also know that the crew
are lacking somewhere in their form and style.

Another picture is you spinning a bicycle tire. Spin it with your hand. If your hand is slightly
slower than the spin of the tire, you slow it down and most likely will get a burn on your fingers.
That's where a lot of blisters on feet come from as people get tired in the marathon.

Anyway I hope the pictures are a little helpful to get your calves back into shape. Remember if your
calves are having to push your body forward then you've most likely stopped yourself from being
constant in your running speed.

Let us know what you experience.

Oh, run slowly up a hill with the quick steps so that your back foot or pushing off foot doesn't
weight the calf. Once you can do that, you've absorbed the other words. Now you have the feeling and
the experience. Your calf is being used to bring the lower leg off the ground quicker to get it
through the cycle faster as the knee goes back and then come up and forward with the lower leg bent
back at greater than a 90 degree.

So from the front, when the leg is coming forward, it looks like the runner for a short moment has
only a knee stump. As the knee comes forward and lifts, you see the lower leg and then it goes down
so that in the majority of great runners you don't see the heel of the shoe.

Now the above is a core dump. I'll have to go back and see what I said. I'm interested in finding
out where I'm wrong or am explaining it incorrectly. Help me clean up my word pictures.

Again, it's folklore. If it works for you, use it. If not, find someone who makes better sense and
whose ideas work for you and use them. Or create your own images that work great for you, and please
share them with me and others of rec.running so we can educate ourselves better.

In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
Clinic, est. 1975

Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/

In rec.sport.triathlon Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:
> In article <200420032245188398%robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk>, robin benson wrote:
>> I've recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up
>> to 5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour
>> (8km) runs -- I find the slower pace allows me to keep going.

>> I'd like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM.

> Runs of this duration are rare even among well trained marathon runners. The usual "long run" is
> of 1 hour to 2 hours duration (closer to 2 hours with more experienced runners)

For marathon training at the paces this person is describing, three hours is pretty reasonable -
that's < 15 miles. For an every other week run in the months before a marathon, perfectly good
goal to build up to. If the goal is to improve in general running fitness, I agree with you;
better to do more 1.5-2 hour long runs and not destroy yourself with a 3 hour run.

-Dave

--
work: dga - at - lcs.mit.edu me: angio - at - pobox.com MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
http://www.angio.net/ (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed...) bulk emailers: I do
not accept unsolicited email. Do not mail me.

robin benson <robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<200420032245188398%robin@nospam.tohunga.co.uk>...
> Would appreciate any comments that anybody can make!
>
> I've recently started running on the running machine at a local gym, starting at 4km, working up
> to 5 and then after some weeks I dropped the speed down a bit and have managed five or so hour
> (8km) runs -- I find the slower pace allows me to keep going.
>
> During the second-to-last run, I put the incline up slightly on the machine, and noticed a
> niggling feeling in my left calf.
>
> Over the last run today, the niggling feeling turned into a dull pain -- quite slight, but it's
> got a little (not much) worse over the day today since the run this morning.
>
> The pain isn't acute (yet?), but localised within the muscle just below my calf or in the very
> lower part of my calf.

Not to sound smart, but are you waiting for it to become acute? Injuries are tricky and can't be
diagnosed via the internet. If they could, that would put the medical profession pretty much out
of business.

>
> QUESTION:
>
> What is this most likey to be, and what should I be doing to not make it worse? I'd like to keep
> on with the running!

Difficult if not impossible to tell without a proper diagnosis. Keep running? Well let me see...
It's RICE (REST Incline Compression and Elevation)...the key is REST... just remember they work as a
coherant element - not pick and choose the one's you want do... that may not work (uh, it probably
will not work is more correct). So, keep running... doesn't sound like rest to me.

>
> I assume this is a sprained or stressed lower-calf injury, however slight, and that I should take
> it easy at the next run and stop if I begin to notice the pain setting in. Also, I should be
> taking more time than I'm taking to stretch before running (heard that before?), especially the
> calf area but also archilles.

Assumptions are dangerous. If you think it is insignificant... then just RICE. It that doesn't
work... then see a physician. Stretching warming up are good solutions to preventing injury. You
already have an injury... Stretching could be compounding the problem. Warming up
- well, that's not rest (now is it).

>
> What about running on machines vs. running on ground/road/grass/up+down hills?

Might work... what's your base training level? What your Max. HR. or VO2 max.? What your orignal
standard for effort (i.e., HR) for constant activity ratio? As you can, specific training regimen
(in and of itself) is not the defining element for improvement.

>
> I'd like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM.
>
> TIA for any thoughts, perspectives, experiences, etc.!
>
> Best wishes
>
> Robin

If you want to build up to faster and better runs... you need to learn the value of rest. Most
improvement occurs with recovery. Recovery is the least understood and most underestimated part
of training.

Good Luck

FWIW Joe Moya

One word... Yoga.
--
David Nova Scotia, Canada.

"David" <user@host.com> wrote in message news:user-E2DE69.08100321042003@news.eastlink.ca...

> One word... Yoga.

Two words... is pointless.

Roger.

"Roger Hunter" <ronin11@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in news:b80onk$5396u$1@ID- 163600.news.dfncis.de:

> "David" <user@host.com> wrote in message news:user-E2DE69.08100321042003@news.eastlink.ca...
>
>> One word... Yoga.
>
> Two words... is pointless.
>
>
> Roger.
>
>

Can either of you string a few more words together to justify your positions?

Try a spinning class at your local gym.

Spinning can do wonders for minor pains in the lower leg, and serves as a respectable complement
to running.

"Tom Henderson" <TomH_4th@BellSouth.net> wrote in message
news:Xns93644FD4C90F3TomH4thBellSouthnet@65.82.44.187...
> > "David" <user@host.com> wrote in message news:user-E2DE69.08100321042003@news.eastlink.ca...

> >> One word... Yoga.

> > Two words... is pointless.

> Can either of you string a few more words together to justify your positions?

Not me. My distrust of Yoga is based on a deep loathing of all four-letter words that start with the
letter "Y".

Roger. <Yup, I'm bored again

"Roger Hunter" <ronin11@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in news:b80uuk$512oi$1@ID-163600.news.dfncis.de:

> "Tom Henderson" <TomH_4th@BellSouth.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns93644FD4C90F3TomH4thBellSouthnet@65.82.44.187...
>> > "David" <user@host.com> wrote in message news:user-E2DE69.08100321042003@news.eastlink.ca...
>
>> >> One word... Yoga.
>
>> > Two words... is pointless.
>
>> Can either of you string a few more words together to justify your positions?
>
> Not me. My distrust of Yoga is based on a deep loathing of all four-letter words that start with
> the letter "Y".
>
>
> Roger. <Yup, I'm bored again>
>
>
>

Hmmm...

Yarn? Yank - OK, this is justified ;-) Yoda - I kinda like the guy! Yo-yo? York? Yams? Yipe? Your?
Yerk - "jerk" with a swedish acent

"Tom Henderson" <TomH_4th@BellSouth.net> wrote in message
news:Xns93646A94E523ETomH4thBellSouthnet@65.82.44.187...

> Hmmm...
>
> Yarn? Yank - OK, this is justified ;-) Yoda - I kinda like the guy! Yo-yo? York? Yams? Yipe? Your?
> Yerk - "jerk" with a swedish acent

Aaargh! Stop it! I hate them all!

Roger.

Hi folks. Firstly, thanks for all the replies -- all useful perspectives on my situation. Thanks for
taking the time to provide them.

Reconsidering, I should have been more accurate in my initial post, and more structured. As is often
the case, this becomes more obvious when considering the replies!

Responding to each in turn ...

Regards

Robin

In article <slrnba6ghb.iqi.abuse@panix2.panix.com>, Donovan Rebbechi <abuse@aol.com> wrote:

> You need to do some reading on running injuries and try to work out what it
> is. Apply the appropriate treatment for that injury (tendon injuries usually require ice, for
> example) It's hard to tell from your description.

I don't think it's the tendon, but can't be sure. Today, it's almost gone, so the amount of damage
may not be that great.

> Stop running for a couple of days, then you'll need to re-evaluate your program when you return.
> In fact it might be a good idea to do some sort of other exercise instead (like the bike or
> elliptical) for the next week or so.

This was my default position. I'm giving it a rest, and the next run will be shorter and better
prepared in terms of stretching.

> Don't run on an incline. Beware of overly cushioned treadmills.

OK. For the sake of interest, why avoid an incline? Are you saying avoid inclines while the injury
is present, in general, or just on treadmills?

> You can't stretch tendons. Stretching your calves is a good idea, but I doubt that doing the
> stretching before a run will help besides providing general flexibility benefits

I figured I'll pay more attention to stretching my calves as they've probably contracted somewhat
since I've been doing the longer runs.

> Running on treadmills is fine if you can take the boredom.

Yes, it is very much a mental challenge. It's inconvenient for me to run outside at the moment, but
this should change in the coming months.

> Different treadmills have different levels of shock absorbtion, like different running surfaces.
> Really soft surfaces put more stress on your calves (for example, running on the beach). Really
> hard surfaces increase the stress on your knees. Running uphills puts more stress on your calves
> and achilles tendons, and running downhill puts more stress on your knees.

All good stuff. I'll try the treadmill on 0.00 incline. It's not too soft or too hard (well,
seemingly ... ).

> For you I'd suggest running on a firm surface and avoiding steep inclines (up or downhill)

Will bear this in mind.

> > I'd like to build up to runs of around three hours/30KM.
> Runs of this duration are rare even among well trained marathon runners. The usual "long run" is
> of 1 hour to 2 hours duration (closer to 2 hours with more experienced runners)

Maybe this is where it would be good for me to talk about goals.

[background, for what it's worth -- ignore as required!] I'm 175cm (5'8"?) and about 96kg (down from
100kg six weeks ago). My estimation is that I should be 85-90kg -- I've got quite hefty legs, and am
generally stocky. I eat a healthy diet.

I used to do sprint triathlons, sea swims, duathlons, etc. Just short stuff. Not competitively --
purely on a fitness and self-development basis. My real strength is swimming -- 5/6 times per week,
1.5km-3km per swim, mixing it up a lot (freestyle, fly, etc.).

What I'd like to do is reach a level of fitness where I can pace myself through and enjoy a 20-30km
run without stressing my knees (formerly the source of aches and pains, but not injury as such).
Possibly the result of some strengthening (targeted weights) of the muscles around them, the knees
are much better now and don't give me any trouble. I might look at a half-marathon, but just as an
achievable goal rather than something I have to complete within X time or bust.

I'd ideally like to combine running and swimming with X-country skiing in Winter, but that's a bit
in the future ... (location-wise).

On to the other responses ... thanks Donovan.

Cheers

Robin