erythrocytosis and asthma / lung problems

Is it mere coincidence that theophylline .. considered to be very useful in the treatment of asthma
/ lung problems .. has the ability to lower the red blood cell count in the body?

Theophylline has been shown to retard / block the production of erythropoietin .. the red blood cell
producer which thusly lowers the red blood cell count in the blood.

Not making any .. causes the red blood cell count goes down.

The erythrocytosis found in those with lung disease has always .. I assume .. been attributable to
lack of oxygen .. therefore more red blood cells produced to carry more oxygen.

Marathon runners have been shown to perform powerfully with very minimum hemoglobin .. a
'paradox' ..

The erythrocytosis in the problem of asthma is PROFOUNDLY CONTRIBUTING TO .. the problems of
actually breathing and rather than being a RESULT of asthma .. is the cause of it.

Thick blood actually cannot even make it through the microvessels of the lungs .. it is too thick ..

Thick blood leads to histamine release .

<<snip>>
. The FH content increases in SE with the augmentation in erythrocytosis. <<snip>>

The histamine INCREASES as the red blood cell count .. increases.. erythrocytosis.

: Lik Sprava 1994 May-Jun;(5-6):52-5 Related Articles, Links

[Free histamine and free serotonin in the blood plasma in symptomatic respiratory erythrocytosis]

[Article in Russian]

Vydyborets SV, Gaidukova SN.

Fluorometric analysis was carried out of the blood plasma content of free histamin (FH) and free
serotonin (FS) in 27 patients with chronic non-obstructive bronchitis (ChNB), 52 patients with
chronic obstructive bronchitis (ChOB) presenting with symptomatic erythrocytosis (SE) and in 29
normal subjects. Comparative analysis of the results obtained showed that in SE caused by ChOB the
FH and FS content is significantly higher (p < 0.001) than in ChNB and in normal subjects. The FH
content increases in SE with the augmentation in erythrocytosis. Positive dynamics was noted of FH
and FS during the course of the disease treatment (p < 0.001).

PMID: 7831911 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

This shows clearly .. if there is erythrocytosis / thick blood / hyperviscosity ALREADY PRESENT ..
things .. bad things happens.

<<snip>> In the erythrocytosis of hypoxemic lung disease and its associated hypoxemia, pulmonary
vasoconstriction enhances susceptibility to hyperviscosity effects in particular. <<snip>>

: Mt Sinai J Med 2001 May;68(3):182-91 Related Articles, Links

Hemorheology in the erythrocytoses.

Pearson TC.

Department of Haematological Medicine, The Guy's, King's and St. Thomas' School of Medicine
(University of London), St. Thomas' Hospital, Lambeth Palace Road, London SE1 7EH United Kingdom.

n vitro, rheological studies establish that whole blood viscosity and yield stress are high in
patients with an erythrocytosis. However, a number of factors ensure that these patients, under
physiological conditions, do not show the clinical features observed in other hyperviscosity states.
These include red cell axial migration in flowing blood and "plug flow" in the largest vessels. In
addition, a small increase in vessel diameter leads to large increases in blood flow, and generally
high blood flows produce the lowest blood viscosity values. The increased hemoglobin levels and the
increase in oxygen-carrying capacity at high hematocrit values compensate for the tissue hypoxia. In
the "non-hypoxemic" erythrocytoses (polycythemia vera, idiopathic and apparent erythrocytosis),
there is an increased incidence of vascular occlusion in untreated patients. The reasons for this
include reduced peripheral blood flow, increased platelet-vessel wall interactions, and the
demonstrated in vitro hyperviscosity which comes into play with abnormally low flow, seen in vivo
under pathological conditions. In the erythrocytosis of hypoxemic lung disease and its associated
hypoxemia, pulmonary vasoconstriction enhances susceptibility to hyperviscosity effects in
particular. Moreover, the vasoconstriction caused by the hypoxemia prevents the normal adaptive
changes of increased vessel diameter. Microcytic hypochromic red cell changes of iron deficiency do
not cause a higher viscosity value at any given hematocrit value compared with normal red cells.
However, in hypoxemic states oxygen-carrying capacity should be maximized, since the hemoglobin
value is disproportionately lower at any given hematocrit in the presence of microcytic hypochromic
cells compared with normal red cells.

Publication Types: Review Review Literature

PMID: 11373690 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore

"ironjustice" <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:2BR4a.95330$Q_1.2243342@news2.telusplanet.net...

> [Article in Russian]
>

I think you lost a bit in the translation, Tom.

In the meantime, did you take up my suggestion of getting on the lecture circuit ?

MB

ironjustice <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:qyX4a.96610$Q_1.2387809@news2.telusplanet.net...
>
> Colin Campbell <activated_95b@earthlink.net (remove underscore)> wrote in message
> news:uHW4a.10653$_c6.1105359@newsrea....earthlink.net...
> >
> > ironjustice <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> > news:2BR4a.95330$Q_1.2243342@news2.telusplanet.net...
> > > Is it mere coincidence that theophylline .. considered to be very
useful
> > in
> > > the treatment of asthma / lung problems .. has the ability to lower
the
> > red
> > > blood cell count in the body?
> >
> > This is known as a 'side effect.'
> >
> > Are you aware how how theo works?
>
> It works by binding up iron and reducing the production of red blood
cells.
> Free iron triggers the body to produce red blood cells and the
theophylline
> binds it up and it now cannot trigger the cascade . Erythropoeitin production goes down .. the
> percurser to a red blood cell .. and red blood cell production goes down.
>
> Blood is 'thinned' .. runs easier .. and as in the case of lowering hemoglobin in those with COPD
> .. there is an increase in peak meter flow
and
> a fifty percent rise in exercise performance.

Wrong. Try again.

>
>
>
> Arch Intern Med 1997 Jul 14;157(13):1474-8
>
>
>
> Effect of theophylline on erythrocytosis in chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
>
> Oren R, Beeri M, Hubert A, Kramer MR, Matzner Y Department of Internal Medicine, Hadassah
> University Hospital, Mount
Scopas,
> Israel.
>
> BACKGROUND: Patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
tend
> to develop secondary erythrocytosis to compensate for their chronic
hypoxia.
> Theophylline has recently been shown to reduce hematocrit and
erythropoietin
> blood levels in normal subjects and in patients with erythrocytosis after renal transplantation.
> OBJECTIVE: To determine whether theophylline may be used to lower the hematocrit in patients with
> COPD. METHODS: Two hundred four patients with COPD were studied retrospectively and 10 patients
> prospectively (8 starting treatment with the drug [group 1] and 2 who suspended its long-term use
> [group 2]) for the correlation between theophylline therapy and hematocrit and erythropoietin
> level. RESULTS: In the patients studied retrospectively, lower hematocrits were found in the
> theophylline-treated than in the untreated patients (0.43 +/- 0.006 vs
.46
> +/- 0.007, respectively; P < .002). Twelve untreated patients and 2 of
those
> treated with theophylline had hematocrits above 52%. Oxygen saturation levels were similar in both
> groups, and exclusion of patients with oxygen saturation lower than 88% did not change the
> pattern, suggesting that the effect of theophylline could not be entirely explained by improved
> oxygen availability. Seven of the 8 patients studied prospectively in group 1 (P
<
> .02) and the 2 patients in group 2 showed inverse correlations between hematocrits and
> theophylline administration. A similar pattern was
observed
> with serum erythropoietin levels in 5 of 7 patients studied. The effects were reproducible on
> rechallenge in 3 of the 4 patients in group 1 and the
2
> patients in group 2. CONCLUSIONS: Theophylline may have a beneficial
effect
> in treatment and prevention of erythrocytosis in patients with COPD.
>
> PMID: 9224226, UI: 97367523
>
> Who loves ya. Tom
>
> --
> Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
> http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
>

ironjustice <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:qyX4a.96610$Q_1.2387809@news2.telusplanet.net...
>
> Colin Campbell <activated_95b@earthlink.net (remove underscore)> wrote in message
> news:uHW4a.10653$_c6.1105359@newsrea....earthlink.net...
> >
> > ironjustice <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> > news:2BR4a.95330$Q_1.2243342@news2.telusplanet.net...
> > > Is it mere coincidence that theophylline .. considered to be very
useful
> > in
> > > the treatment of asthma / lung problems .. has the ability to lower
the
> > red
> > > blood cell count in the body?
> >
> > This is known as a 'side effect.'
> >
> > Are you aware how how theo works?
>
> It works by binding up iron and reducing the production of red blood
cells.
> Free iron triggers the body to produce red blood cells and the
theophylline
> binds it up and it now cannot trigger the cascade . Erythropoeitin production goes down .. the
> percurser to a red blood cell .. and red blood cell production goes down.
>
> Blood is 'thinned' .. runs easier .. and as in the case of lowering hemoglobin in those with COPD
> .. there is an increase in peak meter flow
and
> a fifty percent rise in exercise performance.

Wrong. Try again.

>
>
>
> Arch Intern Med 1997 Jul 14;157(13):1474-8
>
>
>
> Effect of theophylline on erythrocytosis in chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
>
> Oren R, Beeri M, Hubert A, Kramer MR, Matzner Y Department of Internal Medicine, Hadassah
> University Hospital, Mount
Scopas,
> Israel.
>
> BACKGROUND: Patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
tend
> to develop secondary erythrocytosis to compensate for their chronic
hypoxia.
> Theophylline has recently been shown to reduce hematocrit and
erythropoietin
> blood levels in normal subjects and in patients with erythrocytosis after renal transplantation.
> OBJECTIVE: To determine whether theophylline may be used to lower the hematocrit in patients with
> COPD. METHODS: Two hundred four patients with COPD were studied retrospectively and 10 patients
> prospectively (8 starting treatment with the drug [group 1] and 2 who suspended its long-term use
> [group 2]) for the correlation between theophylline therapy and hematocrit and erythropoietin
> level. RESULTS: In the patients studied retrospectively, lower hematocrits were found in the
> theophylline-treated than in the untreated patients (0.43 +/- 0.006 vs
.46
> +/- 0.007, respectively; P < .002). Twelve untreated patients and 2 of
those
> treated with theophylline had hematocrits above 52%. Oxygen saturation levels were similar in both
> groups, and exclusion of patients with oxygen saturation lower than 88% did not change the
> pattern, suggesting that the effect of theophylline could not be entirely explained by improved
> oxygen availability. Seven of the 8 patients studied prospectively in group 1 (P
<
> .02) and the 2 patients in group 2 showed inverse correlations between hematocrits and
> theophylline administration. A similar pattern was
observed
> with serum erythropoietin levels in 5 of 7 patients studied. The effects were reproducible on
> rechallenge in 3 of the 4 patients in group 1 and the
2
> patients in group 2. CONCLUSIONS: Theophylline may have a beneficial
effect
> in treatment and prevention of erythrocytosis in patients with COPD.
>
> PMID: 9224226, UI: 97367523
>
> Who loves ya. Tom
>
> --
> Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
> http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
>

ironjustice <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:qyX4a.96610$Q_1.2387809@news2.telusplanet.net...
>
> Colin Campbell <activated_95b@earthlink.net (remove underscore)> wrote in message
> news:uHW4a.10653$_c6.1105359@newsrea....earthlink.net...
> >
> > ironjustice <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> > news:2BR4a.95330$Q_1.2243342@news2.telusplanet.net...
> > > Is it mere coincidence that theophylline .. considered to be very
useful
> > in
> > > the treatment of asthma / lung problems .. has the ability to lower
the
> > red
> > > blood cell count in the body?
> >
> > This is known as a 'side effect.'
> >
> > Are you aware how how theo works?
>
> It works by binding up iron and reducing the production of red blood
cells.
> Free iron triggers the body to produce red blood cells and the
theophylline
> binds it up and it now cannot trigger the cascade . Erythropoeitin production goes down .. the
> percurser to a red blood cell .. and red blood cell production goes down.
>
> Blood is 'thinned' .. runs easier .. and as in the case of lowering hemoglobin in those with COPD
> .. there is an increase in peak meter flow
and
> a fifty percent rise in exercise performance.

Wrong. Try again.

>
>
>
> Arch Intern Med 1997 Jul 14;157(13):1474-8
>
>
>
> Effect of theophylline on erythrocytosis in chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
>
> Oren R, Beeri M, Hubert A, Kramer MR, Matzner Y Department of Internal Medicine, Hadassah
> University Hospital, Mount
Scopas,
> Israel.
>
> BACKGROUND: Patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
tend
> to develop secondary erythrocytosis to compensate for their chronic
hypoxia.
> Theophylline has recently been shown to reduce hematocrit and
erythropoietin
> blood levels in normal subjects and in patients with erythrocytosis after renal transplantation.
> OBJECTIVE: To determine whether theophylline may be used to lower the hematocrit in patients with
> COPD. METHODS: Two hundred four patients with COPD were studied retrospectively and 10 patients
> prospectively (8 starting treatment with the drug [group 1] and 2 who suspended its long-term use
> [group 2]) for the correlation between theophylline therapy and hematocrit and erythropoietin
> level. RESULTS: In the patients studied retrospectively, lower hematocrits were found in the
> theophylline-treated than in the untreated patients (0.43 +/- 0.006 vs
.46
> +/- 0.007, respectively; P < .002). Twelve untreated patients and 2 of
those
> treated with theophylline had hematocrits above 52%. Oxygen saturation levels were similar in both
> groups, and exclusion of patients with oxygen saturation lower than 88% did not change the
> pattern, suggesting that the effect of theophylline could not be entirely explained by improved
> oxygen availability. Seven of the 8 patients studied prospectively in group 1 (P
<
> .02) and the 2 patients in group 2 showed inverse correlations between hematocrits and
> theophylline administration. A similar pattern was
observed
> with serum erythropoietin levels in 5 of 7 patients studied. The effects were reproducible on
> rechallenge in 3 of the 4 patients in group 1 and the
2
> patients in group 2. CONCLUSIONS: Theophylline may have a beneficial
effect
> in treatment and prevention of erythrocytosis in patients with COPD.
>
> PMID: 9224226, UI: 97367523
>
> Who loves ya. Tom
>
> --
> Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
> http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
>

sdores <sdores@myacc.net> wrote in message news:b35h4o$1isqn6$1@ID-132317.news.dfncis.de...
> Tom John Riggs is my friend so please apologize. UM MOM

No I don't think I will..

John has an agenda ..

Has NEVER placed a medical article to refute ANYTHING I say ..

Simply attacks .. PERSONAL attacks ..

On the street .. his ass would be grass ..

Simple as that ..

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore

Tom you are getting out of control already. You are flaming on the crohns-colitis group and now
here. Enough is enough. Please stop crossposting so all the groups don't have the flame wars. Thank
you. UM MOM Susan

"ironjustice" <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:qot5a.48861$9K5.2299352@news0.telusplanet.net...
>
> sdores <sdores@myacc.net> wrote in message news:b35h4o$1isqn6$1@ID-132317.news.dfncis.de...
> > Tom John Riggs is my friend so please apologize. UM MOM
>
> No I don't think I will..
>
> John has an agenda ..
>
> Has NEVER placed a medical article to refute ANYTHING I say ..
>
> Simply attacks .. PERSONAL attacks ..
>
> On the street .. his ass would be grass ..
>
> Simple as that ..
>
> Who loves ya. Tom
> --
> Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
> http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore

CBI <00doc@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:b31g1f$9up$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> He doesn't understand that or the fact that very few asthmatics have such low )2's that they end
> up with elevated RBC counts to the point of causing increase viscosity. All he has is an obsession
> with iron. He has been all over Usenet with his crap and unfortunately, has finally wound his way
over
> to here. The good news is that is history holds he will soon get tired of
it
> and move on.

I know that he is a mission poster. I make these comments occasionally so the newbies will get an
alert that this guy may not be the world's best source of medical advice.

Tom I just noted your crossposting, meds I suspect. I hate crossposting. If I want to post to all
the other group then I would, it should be my choice. UM MOM Susan "Colin Campbell"
<activated_95b@earthlink.net (remove underscore)> wrote in message
news:bf75a.11496$_c6.1194037@newsrea....earthlink.net...
>
> ironjustice <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> news:qyX4a.96610$Q_1.2387809@news2.telusplanet.net...
> >
> > Colin Campbell <activated_95b@earthlink.net (remove underscore)> wrote
in
> > message news:uHW4a.10653$_c6.1105359@newsrea....earthlink.net...
> > >
> > > ironjustice <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> > > news:2BR4a.95330$Q_1.2243342@news2.telusplanet.net...
> > > > Is it mere coincidence that theophylline .. considered to be very
> useful
> > > in
> > > > the treatment of asthma / lung problems .. has the ability to lower
> the
> > > red
> > > > blood cell count in the body?
> > >
> > > This is known as a 'side effect.'
> > >
> > > Are you aware how how theo works?
> >
> > It works by binding up iron and reducing the production of red blood
> cells.
> > Free iron triggers the body to produce red blood cells and the
> theophylline
> > binds it up and it now cannot trigger the cascade . Erythropoeitin production goes down .. the
> > percurser to a red blood cell .. and red
blood
> > cell production goes down.
> >
> > Blood is 'thinned' .. runs easier .. and as in the case of lowering hemoglobin in those with
> > COPD .. there is an increase in peak meter flow
> and
> > a fifty percent rise in exercise performance.
>
> Wrong. Try again.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Arch Intern Med 1997 Jul 14;157(13):1474-8
> >
> >
> >
> > Effect of theophylline on erythrocytosis in chronic obstructive
pulmonary
> > disease.
> >
> > Oren R, Beeri M, Hubert A, Kramer MR, Matzner Y Department of Internal Medicine, Hadassah
> > University Hospital, Mount
> Scopas,
> > Israel.
> >
> > BACKGROUND: Patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
> tend
> > to develop secondary erythrocytosis to compensate for their chronic
> hypoxia.
> > Theophylline has recently been shown to reduce hematocrit and
> erythropoietin
> > blood levels in normal subjects and in patients with erythrocytosis
after
> > renal transplantation. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether theophylline may
be
> > used to lower the hematocrit in patients with COPD. METHODS: Two hundred four patients with COPD
> > were studied retrospectively and 10 patients prospectively (8 starting treatment with the drug
> > [group 1] and 2 who suspended its long-term use [group 2]) for the correlation between
> > theophylline therapy and hematocrit and erythropoietin level. RESULTS:
In
> > the patients studied retrospectively, lower hematocrits were found in
the
> > theophylline-treated than in the untreated patients (0.43 +/- 0.006 vs
> .46
> > +/- 0.007, respectively; P < .002). Twelve untreated patients and 2 of
> those
> > treated with theophylline had hematocrits above 52%. Oxygen saturation levels were similar in
> > both groups, and exclusion of patients with
oxygen
> > saturation lower than 88% did not change the pattern, suggesting that
the
> > effect of theophylline could not be entirely explained by improved
oxygen
> > availability. Seven of the 8 patients studied prospectively in group 1
(P
> <
> > .02) and the 2 patients in group 2 showed inverse correlations between hematocrits and
> > theophylline administration. A similar pattern was
> observed
> > with serum erythropoietin levels in 5 of 7 patients studied. The effects were reproducible on
> > rechallenge in 3 of the 4 patients in group 1 and
the
> 2
> > patients in group 2. CONCLUSIONS: Theophylline may have a beneficial
> effect
> > in treatment and prevention of erythrocytosis in patients with COPD.
> >
> > PMID: 9224226, UI: 97367523
> >
> > Who loves ya. Tom
> >
> > --
> > Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
> >
> >
> >
>

I said in message news:b36nei$gv7$1@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
> > You've been complaining that everyone just personally attacks you and
does
> > not discuss the science. I posted a critique of the first article you posted. I think you need
> > to comment on what I said before moving on to
try
> > number 2 - or are you conceding the points on the first try?
> >

Then you replied in message news:AhN5a.56525$9K5.2529068@news0.telusplanet.net...

> Conceding what? You disagree with my contention. You expect me to attempt to argue with you over
> .. ? The fact you believe the introduction of iron to a system does not stimulate the production
> of red blood cells ?
>
> I thought maybe I would let that one pass to save you some face ..
>
> > Careful what you wish for.
> >
> > I'll discuss the second article if and when you come up with a coherent reply to my comments on
> > the first. Time to put up or shut up
>
> What remark .. ?
>
> Comments ?

Then you went on to rave nonsensically first that iron excess stimulated red blood cell production
(not just allows it if not deficient).

> >All of this is utter tripe. If free iron stimulates red blood cell production then why don't
> >people with hemochromatosis (iron overload)
have
> >eelvated RBC counts? Low oxygen tension in the renal medulla causes the release of erythropoeitin
> >and erythrocytosis. Iron is needed to produce
the
> >red cells but does not stimulate them itself.
>
> What ? Iron overloaded / hemochromatosis patients DON"T have elevated Hb
..
> ?
>
> Is that what you are saying .. ?
>
> Well since the record seems to be BEING BLOODLET THREE TIMES AWEEK FOR MONTHS ON END .. I might
> suppose your comment as to them NOT having elevated RBC .. might be .. wrong ..

Then you went on to agree that I was right.

> But then again .. hemochromatosis patients PRESENT in many cases with ANEMIA.
>
> So .. hell .. you can use that as an argument ..
>
> Hemochromatosis patients are .. ANEMIC!
>
> Hemolysis / hemolytic anemia .. too many red blood cells causes increased destruction of red blood
> cells .. increased destruction of red blood cells creates .. oxidation / rust .. which destroys
> antioxidants .. tocopherol
..
> the #1 target and once there is no tocopherol .. your body cannot create a VIABLE red blood cell
> .. and so you now have anemia which is UNCORRECTABLE .. due to lack of tocopherol.
>

Then you went on to introduce yet another study without ever addressing the bulk of the discussion
on the first one in any way and none of it in any meaningful or coherent way.

> Below .. antioxidants seem to actually REVERSE the 'problems' found in
those
> with sickle cell / a hemolytic anemia .. in case you don't remember.
>
> 1: Br J Haematol 2001 May;113(2):500-7 Related Articles, Links
>

< Snipped for the sake of brevity>

My comment on all this:

I didn't think so.

--
CBI, MD

CBI <00doc@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:b38ikh$mgf$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...

> I didn't think so.

Didn't think you would ..

Found out by now it hurts .. the .. head .. eh ..

In case you missed it .. you said hemochromatosis patients DON'T present with elevated levels of
RBC's .. and they .. do ..

But since YOU seem to be of the belief .. PROVEN in your own Standards of Care .. that a hemoglobin
of 14.5 in a woman is NO BIG DEAL .. you probably DON'T think a hemoglobin of 14.5 is any big deal.

MY .. evidenced based medicine .. IS .. dead children in wombs ..

Children tend to die in the womb of women whose hemoglobins are 14.5 .. the point YOU don't even
bother to look ..

And YOU expect ME .. to somehow .. attempt to convince YOU .. that you are wrong .. ?

When ALL you do is quote .. verbatim .. crap from your textbook .. and NOT .. evidenced based recent
medical studies .. ?

Giving someone iron .. EVEN WHEN they have normal red blood cell mass .. WILL increase their red
blood cell mass.

PERIOD ..

Maybe ONLY .. 'within the window' .. of which you and your cohorts have established BUT still with
in the window that kills .. children ..

So ..

You haven't even begun to say .. oops .. yet ..

And while I wrote this message I suppose one could say ANOTHER baby JUST died DUE TO the medical
profession NOT BOTHERING TO FOLLOW EVIDENCED BASED MEDICINE ..

The argument I consistently ran into .. " we don't ROUTINELY prescribe iron to pregnant women .. "

And now in Medline they are saying .. " we'd better reconsider routinely prescribing iron .. "

Make .. up .. your .. minds ..

Either you do .. or you don't ..

Medline says you do ..

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore

Moosh <ZZ@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message news:j4mj5v4teobnqfevjvsv4ksrqm5bhnsojp@4ax.com...
> Sorry... Tom.... I ... thought.... UseNet ..... was ..... all ..... about .......making .........
> commments.........
>
>
> B ..... T .... W .... that ..... was ...... a ..... question ....... which ..... you ..... didn't
> ..... answer......

The answer BEING .. 'they' .. THINK .. a hemoglobin of 16.5 is the point at which they should begin
to look closely at WHY the hemoglobin is so high. This very high mark of 'normal' is governed by ..
money. It is cheaper NOT to test everyone for problems UNTIL the hemoglobin is this high.

Babies begin to die in the womb when the hemoglobin of the mother is 14.5 .. and on average they
begin to supplement iron when the woman is below 12 .. I believe .. and thusly .. anything within
the window of 12 - 16.5 is NOT called a hemoglobin raise in a woman.

So the hemoglobin is raised 'normally' .. even though NOW .. the child is dead .. BUT .. since the
hemoglobin IS within this .. window .. the iron salts / infusions did NOT raise the hemoglobin in
someone with 'normal' hemoglobin.

That is how they get to SAY .. " normal people who are supplemented with iron will not achieve an
abnormal .. hemoglobin" .. even though the child is .. dead .

If you see what I mean.

Or one could point to the poisoned child who has accidentally overdosed on iron .. who NOW has
erythrocytosis .. BUT that erythrocytosis is NOT due to the iron .. it is due to 'something else'
which is idiopathic.

So .. generally using the markers which the medical profession uses .. this very large window ..
hemoglobin isn't RAISED beyond .. normal .. BUT .. when the hemoglobin MARKER is lowered ...

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore!
http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore

On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:56:10 GMT, "ironjustice" <thennesy@telusplanet.net> wrote:

>
>Moosh <ZZ@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message news:j4mj5v4teobnqfevjvsv4ksrqm5bhnsojp@4ax.com...
>> Sorry... Tom.... I ... thought.... UseNet ..... was ..... all ..... about .......making .........
>> commments.........
>>
>>
>> B ..... T .... W .... that ..... was ...... a ..... question ....... which ..... you ..... didn't
>> ..... answer......
>
>The answer BEING .. 'they' .. THINK .. a hemoglobin of 16.5 is the point at which they should begin
>to look closely at WHY the hemoglobin is so high. This very high mark of 'normal' is governed by ..
>money. It is cheaper NOT to test everyone for problems UNTIL the hemoglobin is this high.

And? What's new? ALL medical intervention is goverened by economics.

>Babies begin to die in the womb when the hemoglobin of the mother is 14.5 ..

How many in 10,000? What are the causes

>and on average they begin to supplement iron when the woman is below 12 ..

And?

>I believe .. and thusly .. anything within the window of 12 - 16.5 is NOT called a hemoglobin raise
>in a woman.

Well does it cause a significant problem in the vast majority?

>So the hemoglobin is raised 'normally' .. even though NOW .. the child is dead ..

From what?

>BUT .. since the hemoglobin IS within this .. window .. the iron salts / infusions did NOT raise
>the hemoglobin in someone with 'normal' hemoglobin.

And?

>That is how they get to SAY .. " normal people who are supplemented with iron will not achieve an
>abnormal .. hemoglobin" ..

And I assume this is true?

>even though the child is .. dead .

From what?

>If you see what I mean.

Nope, shouldn't you be asking this on sci.med?

>Or one could point to the poisoned child who has accidentally overdosed on iron .. who NOW has
>erythrocytosis ..

No, a damaged gut from the pH or liver damage from the gross excess of iron in a small child?

>BUT that erythrocytosis is NOT due to the iron .. it is due to 'something else' which is
>idiopathic.

What erythrocytosis?

>So .. generally using the markers which the medical profession uses ..

With good reason, I presume, judging by how our medical profession acts.

>this very large window .. hemoglobin isn't RAISED beyond .. normal .. BUT .. when the hemoglobin
>MARKER is lowered ...

Pardon?

Moosh