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#1
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Hi there, I am a 26 year old male with very low HDL and signs which may indicate pre-diabetes, and I am curious what I can do to curb any trends in this direction. I have a family history of heart disease, diabetes, and obesity. When I was 20-21, I was able to reduce my bodyfat percentage significantly through the use of good diet & exercise combined with chromium picolinate and pyruvate. Recently I have been focusing on lifting weights vs. aerobic exercise and my fat levels have risen considerably. There is no reason to believe I am eating significantly more fat, so I am worried that this may be an indication of something else. I have very low HDL, but total cholesterol is in the margin of normal. It is very difficult for me to sustain significant aerobic activity - i.e. say more than 2-3 miles of running - I don't know if this is because of poor cardiovascular health or poor energy transfer/metabolism or some sort of strange combined effect. Any advice or thoughts on supplements (niacin, chromium, etc) that can assist this problem and any insights on my exercise pattern? Would appreciate your help. Thanks. |
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#2
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"Andrew" <analystresearch2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:43cf64b0.0403071424.5200400a@posting.google.com... > Hi there, > <snip> > Recently I have been focusing on lifting weights vs. > aerobic exercise and my fat levels have risen > considerably. There is no reason to believe I am eating > significantly more fat, so I am worried that this may be > an indication of something else. I have very low HDL, but > total cholesterol is in the margin of normal. It is very > difficult for me to sustain significant aerobic activity - > i.e. say more than 2-3 miles of running - I don't know if > this is because of poor cardiovascular health or poor > energy transfer/metabolism or some sort of strange > combined effect. Any advice or thoughts on supplements > (niacin, chromium, etc) that can assist this problem and > any insights on my exercise pattern? Would appreciate your > help. Thanks. Are you certain that you have had an increase in fat and not just an increase in weight? When people start weight training they gain muscle and may gain weight initially simply because of the addition of muscle, which is more dense than fat. You're not alone. It's difficult for MOST people to run more than 2-3 miles, particularly if you do tiring resistance training before starting to run. I personally have been doing a 3X weekly weight training followed by 2-3 mile running program for the past couple of years, and I'm in my mid-fifties. Your experiences were similar to mine at the beginning. Now I'm in better shape than most 20-somethings. If your doc says you're fit enough to do so, keep up the good work and watch your body change, your stamina increase and your overall health improve. Don't try to micro-manage your physiology after "recently" starting a fitness regimen. George |
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#3
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Andrew, What drives up cholesterol and decreases HDL is not high dietary fat intake, it is high carb intake. Your problem with exhaustion after intense aerobic effort suggests you have hypoglycemia which is a warning sign of developing diabetes. I had that about ten years before I was diagnosed. What happens is your blood sugar surges after a meal, but then goes low as your pancreas play's catch up and pumps out insulin, perhaps too much, to clear the blood sugar. When you exercise when you have a low blood sugar, you go a whole lot lower and feel like you have lead in your legs. If the hypoglycemia "goes away" it is actually a sign your blood sugars are getting worse, not better, which many of us here did not understand. High carb intake leads to very high post meal blood sugars, and they are thought to be a huge part of what stresses your pancreas and leads to the death of the cells that produce insulin. The very worst carb is probably the high fructose corn syrup that is in sodas and much junk food. It not only raises blood sugar but also raises triglycerides. There is some intriguing research that shows that the combination of high triglycerides and high blood sugar at the same time in your blood stream leads to destruction of beta cells (via their effect on causing the growth of amyloid deposits in the pancreas). So the best thing you can do to avoid type 2 diabetes now is to cut way down on carbohydrates, especially white flour, white sugar, and potatoes. Your goal is to keep your blood sugar from getting so high that you a) get a reactive low later, and b) poison your pancreas cells. I'd suggest starting by eliminating all sugary sodas and "energy drinks." A lot of "healthy" spritzers are pure hummingbird food--i.e. sugar. A single health food juice bottle can contain 50 grams of sugar. This is murder on your pancreas. Substitute either seltzer or diet sodas. The ones with Splenda taste a lot better than the older ones did. Don't eat bread or pasta as a routine food. Go for small portions when you do eat them. Read labels and learn how much carbohydrate is in the various foods you eat. Sometimes you'll be surprised. Yogurt with fruit is extremely high in sugar, regular cheese is a lot better for you. If you catch the problem early and cut down on the carbs, you can decrease the stress on your beta cells and lower the high blood sugars that poison them ("glucotoxicity" is the technical term.) However, you might want to do some further research to make sure you aren't actually in the early stages of diabetes. The fasting glucose test is a very poor diagnostic criteria as it diagnoses people many years after their post meal blood sugar levels are in the diabetic range. Ask your doctor if you can get your blood sugar tested after a high carbohydrate meal or if you can have an hba1c test. The latter is also helpful for gauging how abnormal your blood sugar is, though it is not as good as a 2 hour post meal value. I sure wish someone had told me this stuff years ago before I burnt out my pancreas eating the "healthy" high carb crap that was exactly not what I needed to eat. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support- diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm "Andrew" <analystresearch2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:43cf64b0.0403071424.5200400a@posting.google.com... > Hi there, > > I am a 26 year old male with very low HDL and signs > which may indicate pre-diabetes, and I am curious what I > can do to curb any trends in this direction. > > I have a family history of heart disease, diabetes, and > obesity. When I was 20-21, I was able to reduce my > bodyfat percentage significantly through the use of good > diet & exercise combined with chromium picolinate and > pyruvate. Recently I have been focusing on lifting > weights vs. aerobic exercise and my fat levels have > risen considerably. There is no reason to believe I am > eating significantly more fat, so I am worried that this > may be an indication of something else. I have very low > HDL, but total cholesterol is in the margin of normal. > It is very difficult for me to sustain significant > aerobic activity - i.e. say more than 2-3 miles of > running - I don't know if this is because of poor > cardiovascular health or poor energy transfer/metabolism > or some sort of strange combined effect. Any advice or > thoughts on supplements (niacin, chromium, etc) that can > assist this problem and any insights on my exercise > pattern? Would appreciate your help. Thanks. |
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#4
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"Andrew" <analystresearch2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:43cf64b0.0403071424.5200400a@posting.google.com... > Hi there, > > I am a 26 year old male with very low HDL and signs > which may indicate pre-diabetes, and I am curious what I > can do to curb any trends in this direction. > > I have a family history of heart disease, diabetes, and > obesity. When I was 20-21, I was able to reduce my > bodyfat percentage significantly through the use of good > diet & exercise combined with chromium picolinate and > pyruvate. Recently I have been focusing on lifting > weights vs. aerobic exercise and my fat levels have > risen considerably. There is no reason to believe I am > eating significantly more fat, so I am worried that this > may be an indication of something else. I have very low > HDL, but total cholesterol is in the margin of normal. > It is very difficult for me to sustain significant > aerobic activity - i.e. say more than 2-3 miles of > running - I don't know if this is because of poor > cardiovascular health or poor energy transfer/metabolism > or some sort of strange combined effect. Any advice or > thoughts on supplements (niacin, chromium, etc) that can > assist this problem and any insights on my exercise > pattern? Would appreciate your help. Thanks. Niacin can increase HDL. Running 2-3 miles several times a week is a reasonable amount. If you want to do more aerobics, any way you can intersperse the weight training? Bill |
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#5
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Andrew wrote in message <43cf64b0.0403071424.5200400a@posting.google.com>... >Hi there, > > I am a 26 year old male with very low HDL and signs which > may indicate pre-diabetes, and I am curious what I can do > to curb any trends in this direction. > > I have a family history of heart disease, diabetes, and > obesity. When I was 20-21, I was able to reduce my > bodyfat percentage significantly through the use of good > diet & exercise combined with chromium picolinate and > pyruvate. Recently I have been focusing on lifting > weights vs. aerobic exercise and my fat levels have risen > considerably. There is no reason to believe I am eating > significantly more fat, so I am worried that this may be > an indication of something else. I have very low HDL, but > total cholesterol is in the margin of normal. It is very > difficult for me to sustain significant aerobic activity > - i.e. say more than 2-3 miles of running - I don't know > if this is because of poor cardiovascular health or poor > energy transfer/metabolism or some sort of strange > combined effect. Any advice or thoughts on supplements > (niacin, chromium, etc) that can assist this problem and > any insights on my exercise pattern? Would appreciate > your help. Thanks. From "50 Ways to Lower Your Cholesterol", McGowan, Mary P., M.D. (cardiologist) 1. "In large part, a person's HDL cholesterol level is genetically predetermined. . . ." 2. "Quitting smoking can increase HDL" 3. "Exercise is known to improve HDL" 4. "Weight loss can lead to a significant improvement. . ." 5. A high intake of trans fat is known to dramatically reduce HDL. Switching from a high trans fat diet to one rich in monounsaturated fats such as the ones found in canola, olive and peanut oil can improve HDL levels. 6. Maybe, a bit of alcohol taken after dinner can help. . .maybe. If you have all that T2 in your family, be very alert to your triglycerides levels. High triglycerides is a marker for Insulin Resistance which usually accompanies T2 in Western Countries. Insulin Resistance is thought to encourage fat deposition. If present, the attack on this very undesireable conditon would be a low carb diet and possibly the use of an anti- Insulin Resistance med such as metformin. (and lots of exercise but you're already handling that) Mysterious bouts of temporary fatique could be a symptom of Reactive Hypoglycemia. That's another marker of developing T2. You might invest in a home blood sugar testing meter and take a look at your blood sugar when you feel unwell or odd. Normal folks spend most of their time in the 70 - 110 mg/dL range. If you detect any Insulin Resistance or T2 markers, find a good doc and start attacking the conditions early. You'll be very happy you did when you get to Old F*rt status. Regards Old Al |
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#6
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"Jenny" <lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:404bbff9$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com... > Andrew, > > What drives up cholesterol and decreases HDL is not high > dietary fat intake, > it is high carb intake. > > Your problem with exhaustion after intense aerobic effort > suggests ... ... that you're like almost everyone else who tends to feel exhausted after intense aerobic workout! George |
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#7
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Andrew: oldal4865 said: > 5. A high intake of trans fat is known to dramatically > reduce HDL. Switching from a high trans fat diet to > one rich in monounsaturated fats such as the ones > found in canola, olive and peanut oil can improve HDL > levels. Until the FDA regulation takes effect on labeling, trans fats are hidden in food labels. They are shown as partially hydrogenated soy, corn oil, or other kinds of Omega 6 fatty acids. Trans fats are not essential to your diet and function similar to saturated fat. Trans fats also interfere with the metabolism of essential fatty acids. Saturated fat if not offset by adequate monounsaturated fats can be toxic to your pancreas. Cerimide is formed which kills pancreatic beta cells. The triglyceride to HDL ratio is considered a good indicator of cardiovascular risk. A ratio of 3 or less is desireable. Frank |
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#8
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Very interesting post; thankyou. "Jenny" <lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:404bbff9$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com... > Andrew, > > What drives up cholesterol and decreases HDL is not high > dietary fat intake, > it is high carb intake. > > Your problem with exhaustion after intense aerobic effort > suggests you have > hypoglycemia which is a warning sign of developing > diabetes. I had that about ten years before I was > diagnosed. What happens is your blood sugar surges after a > meal, but then goes low as your pancreas play's catch up and > pumps out insulin, perhaps too much, to clear the blood > sugar. When you exercise when you have a low blood sugar, > you go a whole lot lower and feel > like you have lead in your legs. If the hypoglycemia "goes > away" it is actually a sign your blood sugars are getting > worse, not better, which many > of us here did not understand. > > High carb intake leads to very high post meal blood > sugars, and they are thought to be a huge part of what > stresses your pancreas and leads to the death of the cells > that produce insulin. The very worst carb is probably the > high fructose corn syrup that is in sodas and much junk > food. It not only raises blood sugar but also raises > triglycerides. There is some intriguing research that > shows that the combination of high triglycerides and high > blood sugar at the same time in your blood stream leads to > destruction of beta cells (via their effect on causing the > growth of amyloid deposits in the pancreas). > > So the best thing you can do to avoid type 2 diabetes now > is to cut way down > on carbohydrates, especially white flour, white sugar, and > potatoes. Your goal is to keep your blood sugar from > getting so high that you a) get a reactive low later, and > b) poison your pancreas cells. > > I'd suggest starting by eliminating all sugary sodas and > "energy drinks." A lot of "healthy" spritzers are pure > hummingbird food--i.e. sugar. A single > health food juice bottle can contain 50 grams of sugar. > This is murder on your pancreas. Substitute either seltzer > or diet sodas. The ones with Splenda taste a lot better > than the older ones did. > > Don't eat bread or pasta as a routine food. Go for small > portions when you > do eat them. Read labels and learn how much carbohydrate > is in the various > foods you eat. Sometimes you'll be surprised. Yogurt with > fruit is extremely high in sugar, regular cheese is a lot > better for you. > > If you catch the problem early and cut down on the carbs, > you can decrease the stress on your beta cells and lower > the high blood sugars that poison them ("glucotoxicity" is > the technical term.) > > However, you might want to do some further research to > make sure you aren't > actually in the early stages of diabetes. The fasting > glucose test is a very > poor diagnostic criteria as it diagnoses people many years > after their post > meal blood sugar levels are in the diabetic range. Ask > your doctor if you can get your blood sugar tested after a > high carbohydrate meal or if you can > have an hba1c test. The latter is also helpful for gauging > how abnormal your > blood sugar is, though it is not as good as a 2 hour post > meal value. > > I sure wish someone had told me this stuff years ago > before I burnt out my pancreas eating the "healthy" high > carb crap that was exactly not what I needed to eat. > > -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. > Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my > email address! > > Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, > recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at > http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ > > Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support- > diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm > > > > "Andrew" <analystresearch2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:43cf64b0.0403071424.5200400a@posting.google.com... > > Hi there, > > > > I am a 26 year old male with very low HDL and signs > > which may indicate pre-diabetes, and I am curious what > > I can do to curb any trends in this direction. > > > > I have a family history of heart disease, diabetes, > > and obesity. When I was 20-21, I was able to reduce my > > bodyfat percentage significantly through the use of > > good diet & exercise combined with chromium picolinate > > and pyruvate. Recently I have been focusing on lifting > > weights vs. aerobic exercise and my fat levels have > > risen considerably. There is no reason to believe I am > > eating significantly more fat, so I am worried that > > this may be an indication of something else. I have > > very low HDL, but total cholesterol is in the margin > > of normal. It is very difficult for me to sustain > > significant aerobic activity - i.e. say more than 2-3 > > miles of running - I don't know if this is because of > > poor cardiovascular health or poor energy > > transfer/metabolism or some sort of strange combined > > effect. Any advice or thoughts on supplements (niacin, > > chromium, etc) that can assist this problem and any > > insights on my exercise pattern? Would appreciate your > > help. Thanks. |
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#9
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On 7 Mar 2004 14:24:39 -0800, analystresearch2002@yahoo.com (Andrew) wrote: >It is very difficult for me to sustain significant aerobic >activity - i.e. say more than 2-3 miles of running Andrew - 1. Any idea about what your VO2max was when you were running and now? If you have a best 5K, 10K, 1.5 mile, or 12 minute, it would be possible to estimate the VO2max. 2. Did you stop aerobic training while weightlifting? Aerobic capacity decays quickly without training. If you've been off running for 2 months, there's no way that you can go out and do a 5K workout at the same pace you did before you quit. 3. How much training are you doing overall? Is there a possibility that you are overtraining? Realize that it's hard for most athletes to catch overtraining on their own until it becomes severe. 4. Do you check your morning pulse when you wake up? How has it changed? (This could indicate overtraining.) 5. Are you using supplements to help with your weight training? If you have been using supplements to help with weight training, there's the possibility that you may have made use of supplements that have been adulterated with "performance enhancing compounds." If you've followed the Olympic athletes, you know that this can be a problem with supplements pitched to athletes. Zooty |
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#10
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"Andrew" <analystresearch2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:43cf64b0.0403071424.5200400a@posting.google.com... > Hi there, > > I am a 26 year old male with very low HDL and signs > which may indicate pre-diabetes, and I am curious what I > can do to curb any trends in this direction. > > I have a family history of heart disease, diabetes, and > obesity. When I was 20-21, I was able to reduce my > bodyfat percentage significantly through the use of good > diet & exercise Very good > combined with chromium picolinate and pyruvate. Ouch. I would stay away from these. No evidence they help. > Recently I have been focusing on lifting weights vs. > aerobic exercise and my fat levels have risen > considerably. There is no reason to believe I am eating > significantly more fat, so I am worried that this may be > an indication of something else. I have very low HDL, but > total cholesterol is in the margin of normal. It is very > difficult for me to sustain significant aerobic activity - > i.e. say more than 2-3 miles of running - I don't know if > this is because of poor cardiovascular health or poor > energy transfer/metabolism or some sort of strange > combined effect. Any advice or thoughts on supplements > (niacin, chromium, etc) that can assist this problem and > any insights on my exercise pattern? Would appreciate your > help. Thanks. It sounds like you need to work with your doctor on this one. You should ask to speak to a nutritionist to review your diet. I would stay away from supplements. Most of them don't work; they are poorly studied. And remember, the people selling them are doing it to make money, not help people. It sounds like you should also talk to your doctor about a personal trainer. Jeff |
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#11
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George, The kind of exhaustion you get after exercise when you are hypoglycemic is of a completely different order than the exhaustion a normal person experiences. For many years I'd go to the gym and work out for an hour, come home and be completely unable to function for the rest of the day because I'd be about five minutes away from sleep the whole time. When I say, "my legs feel like they are full of lead" this is not an exaggeration. I could barely walk. I could never understand the enthusiasm people had for exercise and how they said it made them feel great, because it made me feel so rotten. When I started exercising this year, I corrected with 2 grams of glucose every half hour while on the treadmill and it made a huge difference. Instead of dropping into the 70s an then bouncing up and down for the rest of the day, I'd even out. It was only when I started doing this that I realized just how rotten I had felt before. -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.2. Cut the carbs to respond to my email address! Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support- diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm "George" <look@signature_to.reply> wrote in message news:y7- Q2c.8732$%06.5223@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > "Jenny" <lottadatacarbs@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:404bbff9$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com... > > Andrew, > > > > What drives up cholesterol and decreases HDL is not high > > dietary fat > intake, > > it is high carb intake. > > > > Your problem with exhaustion after intense aerobic > > effort suggests ... > > ... that you're like almost everyone else who tends to > feel exhausted after > intense aerobic workout! > > > George > |
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#12
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"Andrew" <analystresearch2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:43cf64b0.0403071424.5200400a@posting.google.com... > Hi there, > > I am a 26 year old male with very low HDL and signs > which may indicate pre-diabetes, and I am curious what I > can do to curb any trends in this direction. > > I have a family history of heart disease, diabetes, and > obesity. When I was 20-21, I was able to reduce my > bodyfat percentage significantly through the use of good > diet & exercise combined with chromium picolinate and > pyruvate. Recently I have been focusing on lifting > weights vs. aerobic exercise and my fat levels have > risen considerably. There is no reason to believe I am > eating significantly more fat, so I am worried that this > may be an indication of something else. I have very low > HDL, but total cholesterol is in the margin of normal. > It is very difficult for me to sustain significant > aerobic activity - i.e. say more than 2-3 miles of > running - I don't know if this is because of poor > cardiovascular health or poor energy transfer/metabolism > or some sort of strange combined effect. Any advice or > thoughts on supplements (niacin, chromium, etc) that can > assist this problem and any insights on my exercise > pattern? Would appreciate your help. Thanks. You're received several helpful and informative responses. I'll offer another option you might not have considered, training the combination of strength and endurance (usually referred to as strength/endurance). This sort of strength is typically valued highly by martial artists and soldiers because it is "functional" - it means being able to demonstrate strength but also being able to do this, at a fairly low level, for a high level of repetitions. Soldiers and martial artists often are in great shape from just about all perspectives - healthy hearts, strong bodies that have some muscle but not too much, and low body fat. I train like a soldier or martial artist even though I'm currently neither and I have a resting pulse in the mid-40's, a lean but strong physique, and good blood numbers. I'm 48 years old and in the best shape of my entire life. The tradition in the American military is doing a lot of pushups and situps, as it is many traditional martial arts. Those traditions, however, are starting to change, in part due to the recent popularity of the kettlebell, a strength/endurance implement that was used for testing fitness in the Soviet military. I've got a web site that introduces kettlebells and kettlebell training to those unfamiliar with it. My site has links to the site from which I learned and from which I buy my own kettlebells and instructional materials. I think you might find it interesting to read about this sort of training. In addition, you might consider taking up the study of a martial art, either a relatively gentle one like Tai Chi, a more overtly physical one like Tae Kwon Do or karate in some other form, or an internal martial art like Pa Gua Chang or similar that combines both the internal and external aspects into one. Another bit of reading you might find interesting is the book "The Warrior Diet" which discusses how the body uses food and how to make the body less dependant on a regular supply of food while still maintaining good blood sugar levels. It basically advocates under-eating during the day and over-eating at night and has been very effective for me and my wife. Its theories are supported by an increasing amount of science, in particular animal studies that have shown alternating periods of restricted and unrestricted eating to produce many health benefits including lower body fat and increased life span. -S- About Kettlebells: http://www.kbnj.com The Warrior Diet: http://www.kbnj.com/wd.htm |
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#13
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14:24:39 Sun, 7 Mar 2004sci.med.nutrition Andrew at Andrew <analystresearch2002@yahoo.com> writes: >Hi there, > > I am a 26 year old male with very low HDL and signs which > may indicate pre-diabetes, and I am curious what I can do > to curb any trends in this direction. > > I have a family history of heart disease, diabetes, and > obesity. When I was 20-21, I was able to reduce my > bodyfat percentage significantly through the use of good > diet & exercise combined with chromium picolinate and > pyruvate. Recently I have been focusing on lifting > weights vs. aerobic exercise and my fat levels have risen > considerably. There is no reason to believe I am eating > significantly more fat, so I am worried that this may be > an indication of something else. I have very low HDL, but > total cholesterol is in the margin of normal. It is very > difficult for me to sustain significant aerobic activity > - i.e. say more than 2-3 miles of running - I don't know > if this is because of poor cardiovascular health or poor > energy transfer/metabolism or some sort of strange > combined effect. Any advice or thoughts on supplements > (niacin, chromium, etc) that can assist this problem and > any insights on my exercise pattern? Would appreciate > your help. Thanks. This lecture/slide show might help you and your doctor determine an early diagnosis of type 2 diabetes, if that is what it is. It includes a handy table of normal, impaired glucose tolerance and full diabetes levels for HDL, LDL, Triglycerides and so on. I recommend you study the lecture closely. You will need to join Medscape, but it is free: http://www.medscape.com/viewprogram/145 Click on The Diabetes Epidemic and continue from there. By the way, I second what was said by Jenny about fat-eating not causing fat deposition: latest research indicates that serum lipid levels correlate to carbohydrate intake, and this is what stresses the pancreas. It seems likely that with proper diet and exercise, you may be able to prevent the disease altogether, or at least slow its progression dramatically. At this stage, given that you are fairly fit, you may well still have plenty of beta cells left. Keep them! -- Martin Thompson bin@tucana.demon.co.uk (use "martin" not "bin") London, UK Home Page: http://www.tucana.demon.co.uk Web Shop: http://buy.at/tucana Mobile Phone Ring Tones: http://www.ringamoby.com "Everything I do and say with anyone makes a difference." Gita Bellin |
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