8Freight

I borrowed the 8Freight from the Bike Station today to pick some some
old tape reels from a colleague (About 100 hours of opera... recording
to commence immediately!). His wife thought we were joking when we were
talking about loading them onto the bike.

Observations:

- Very comfortable. Would be more so if I had adjusted the saddle
slightly... or with a better saddle.
- Flex in the "fork"! Not really an issue, but with the front brake on
and pushing (As one would test a headset) the crown twists noticeably.
Quite disconcerting when stopping hard at lights.
- You can't endo it! ;-)
- As with a recumbent, expect strange looks from passersby.
- Storage? You must be kidding. It fits in the stairwell but I'm pretty
much reliant on being the first one out in the morning otherwise they'll
be some complaints.

Still cool though. Feels very strange when cornering. Far less lean than
a normal bike and a very peculiar sensation to not have the rear wheel
track the front.

Jon

Jon Senior wrote:

> - Very comfortable. Would be more so if I had adjusted the saddle
> slightly... or with a better saddle.

I ordered mine with just an "old fashioned" seatpost rather than a
default saddle, as my B66 was lined up to go on it.

> - Flex in the "fork"! Not really an issue, but with the front brake on
> and pushing (As one would test a headset) the crown twists noticeably.
> Quite disconcerting when stopping hard at lights.

Never noticed this on mine...

> - You can't endo it! ;-)

Indeed. With pretty serious committed effort you /can/ wheelie the
front wheel about a couple of inches, which is actually quite handy on
some of the more savage dropped kerbs. Particularly the one between the
Riverside cycle path and the dump road in Dundee!
I wouldn't try and hop it up a full kerb, partly I doubt I'd manage and
after that one does wonder about scraping the stand, frame and
transmission before the back wheel got up.

> - As with a recumbent, expect strange looks from passersby.

Especially with an ostentatious load! Unlike the 'bent, I can't recall
anyone laughing at it.

> Still cool though. Feels very strange when cornering. Far less lean than
> a normal bike and a very peculiar sensation to not have the rear wheel
> track the front.

I guess it's probably a bit like a tandem ridden solo. You do get used
to it pretty quickly, including the gotcha of squeezing through gaps
/and/ remembering the frame around the cargo bin sticks out a bit...

Still very pleased with mine, it's done a lot of jobs I'd have used the
car for before, and a lot of shopping I would have done by bike and lost
a total of several hours of my life packing bags where I just lower a
crate into the back of the 8. A trailer would be a more immediately
sensible solution for a lot of people as the 8 does need considerable
storage space and doesn't really do anything well aside from cart stuff
about, but if you /are/ carting stuff and have a suitable shed/garage
it's well worth a look.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Jon Senior wrote:
> - As with a recumbent, expect strange looks from passersby.

I saw one coming through Hyde Park the other day with a computer on the
back, though much to my disappointment the rider was pushing it rather
than riding it - I nearly offered to ride it for him and let him go on
my unladen bike. I've decided I want one very badly, especially as we
are moving to live in the countryside soon and I'm keen not to end up
in a situation where I need to use the car for everything.

(I've already had special dispensation from the management to build a
proper bike shed when we move, so I ought to get some bikes to put in
it!)

d.

in message <d5povc$osj$1@dux.dundee.ac.uk>, Peter Clinch
('p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk') wrote:

>
> Still very pleased with mine, it's done a lot of jobs I'd have used
> the car for before, and a lot of shopping I would have done by bike
> and lost a total of several hours of my life packing bags where I just
> lower a
> crate into the back of the 8. A trailer would be a more immediately
> sensible solution for a lot of people as the 8 does need considerable
> storage space and doesn't really do anything well aside from cart
> stuff about, but if you /are/ carting stuff and have a suitable
> shed/garage it's well worth a look.

Yes, I was wondering about how it compared in practice with a trailer.
What do you feel the benefits of the 8freight are over a hack-bike and
trailer?

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they
;; do it from  religious conviction."          -- Pascal

davek wrote:

> I saw one coming through Hyde Park the other day with a computer on the
> back, though much to my disappointment the rider was pushing it rather
> than riding it - I nearly offered to ride it for him and let him go on
> my unladen bike. I've decided I want one very badly

The Burrows Powermatic Deluxe stand[1] has that effect on people... ;-)

Bikefix will let you have a test ride or short-term hire if you want to
give one a proper go before spending the readies. I tried out one of
theirs while leaving my dad as hostage to make sure I took it back when
I was visiting the Smoke a couple of years ago. Not terribly practical
for me to buy it in London, so by way of thanks for the test ride the
front Klickfix bag came from them.

Pete.

[1] it is actually a very good bit of design and improves the utility of
the bike quite noticeably for getting both yourself and cargo on and off
the bike.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch wrote:
> I ordered mine with just an "old fashioned" seatpost rather than a
> default saddle, as my B66 was lined up to go on it.

Being a Bikestation one this is ready for anyone. Consequently it has a
wide "comfort" saddle on it. Uncomfortable!

> Never noticed this on mine...

The design has changed somewhat. Two key things being:

1) The front fork has rotated (Blade now on right). On our other
8Freight it is on the left.
2) The derailleur hanger is now made of mild steel. This is a bit naff
as to keep the weight down a thinner gauge of metal is used and
consequently it bends more! I think we were talking about getting an
old style alu one.
3) The load carrier is a slightly different shape (The trangulation on
the rear platform is reversed). As far as I know it rides the same but it'd be
interesting to know the reason behind the changes... maybe I'll try and
corner Mr Burrows at York again!

> Indeed. With pretty serious committed effort you /can/ wheelie the
> front wheel about a couple of inches, which is actually quite handy
on
> some of the more savage dropped kerbs. Particularly the one between
the
> Riverside cycle path and the dump road in Dundee!
> I wouldn't try and hop it up a full kerb, partly I doubt I'd manage
and
> after that one does wonder about scraping the stand, frame and
> transmission before the back wheel got up.

It does force you to plan ahead a little better than an ordinary bike.

> Especially with an ostentatious load! Unlike the 'bent, I can't
recall
> anyone laughing at it.

The load was mostly unnoticeable, but our hi-tech retaining mechanism
consists of a bunch of old inner tubes tied to the frame.

> I guess it's probably a bit like a tandem ridden solo. You do get
used
> to it pretty quickly, including the gotcha of squeezing through gaps
> /and/ remembering the frame around the cargo bin sticks out a bit...

The only tandem that I've ridden had a much shorter wheel base than the
8Freight.

> Still very pleased with mine, it's done a lot of jobs I'd have used
the
> car for before, and a lot of shopping I would have done by bike and
lost
> a total of several hours of my life packing bags where I just lower a

> crate into the back of the 8. A trailer would be a more immediately
> sensible solution for a lot of people as the 8 does need considerable

> storage space and doesn't really do anything well aside from cart
stuff
> about, but if you /are/ carting stuff and have a suitable shed/garage

> it's well worth a look.

Well. I rode it to work today so here are some further observations.

1: Unladen (mostly) I can ride it over Arthur's seat (Didn't time it.
Sorry!). If I had to climb hills like that with a load, I'd probably
consider a mountain drive.
2: Twitchy. It appears to have close to 0 trail and until you get used
to it, can feel quite twitchy. That said, I managed to descend the
aforementioned hill without any grief although I took the roundabout at
the bottom considerably more cautiously than normal.
3: Once you get a feel for it it's quite good. I even managed to filter
through traffic at one point, but obviously sharp turns around
stationary cars are not an option.
4: Comfort saddles aren't! Not even close. I might look at swapping the
BG2 from the fixer onto it for the ride back!
5: My colleagues were very impressed. One guy was semi-seriously
interested in getting one for the company with appropriate branding for
small deliveries around town. Jobs where a large box van is just too
big. That may be the challenge for the year.

On the Bikefix website there is a great photo of Herr Burrows using an
8Freight to transport a Ratcatcher. Impressed.

Jon

Peter Clinch wrote:
> The Burrows Powermatic Deluxe stand[1] has that effect on people...
;-)

I've not seen it in action, but the mere idea of it is exciting enough!
;-)

> Bikefix will let you have a test ride or short-term hire if you want
to
> give one a proper go before spending the readies.

Cool. That is one shop in which I would find it far too easy to blow
several thousand pounds without trying. The day I win the lottery [1]
is likely to be a good day for business for them...

d.

1. Not likely, /especially/ since I don't do the lottery.

Simon Brooke wrote:

> Yes, I was wondering about how it compared in practice with a trailer.
> What do you feel the benefits of the 8freight are over a hack-bike and
> trailer?

It carries unwieldy loads better because it's designed for load lugging
from the ground up. The first obvious point is you've got a completely
stable platform to load and unload to and from, and you can [dis]mount
the bike without having to hang onto it at all. Parking brake and wide,
stable remote operated stand do make a very tangible difference, as does
the much lower crossbar when it comes to getting on and off with a high,
unwieldy load behind the saddle that gets in the way of swinging a leg
over. The low bottom bracket means you can have the saddle set at a
good pedalling height and get your feet well on the floor while stopped
at junctions without having to get out of the saddle, quite handy with a
fridge in full packing behind you trying to tip the bike over at any
available opportunity[1].

Another point about loading is you can be rather more creative in what
you put on because you've got a wide load area where the top is flat and
entirely above the rear wheel, so long loads can just be overhung. Also
no articulation to worry about, so you have a much longer effective
usable space.

The more outrageous the load is the more the 8 will be better, I think.
So for a wee trolley load from Tescos, not really much to be gained,
but getting a two seater sofa on the back of the 8 wasn't actually too
much trouble but I really don't know where I'd start if I had a BOB or a
Burley and an MTB tug for the job.

Pete.

[1] leaving it in the box and packing meant it wouldn't sit *in* the
load bin, so it had to go higher up. Most loads can have the weight
kept very low, and very stable, but there are exceptions...
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Jon is Away! wrote:

> 2) The derailleur hanger is now made of mild steel. This is a bit
> naff as to keep the weight down a thinner gauge of metal is used
> and consequently it bends more! I think we were talking about
> getting an old style alu one.

I can't believe the weight of the derailleur hanger is a serious
consideration on a load lugger like the 8Freight.

--
Dave...

Jon is Away! wrote:

> Well. I rode it to work today so here are some further observations.
>
> 1: Unladen (mostly) I can ride it over Arthur's seat (Didn't time it.
> Sorry!). If I had to climb hills like that with a load, I'd probably
> consider a mountain drive.

I did wonder if it would want downgearing when I got it, having got it
up Blackness Road okay empty but thinking 50 Kg of coal would put paid
to that. But trying it I found it was okay. But Schlumpfing it is a
longer term possibility.

> 2: Twitchy. It appears to have close to 0 trail and until you get used
> to it, can feel quite twitchy. That said, I managed to descend the
> aforementioned hill without any grief although I took the roundabout at
> the bottom considerably more cautiously than normal.

Yes. It won't ride no-handed, or such is my impression with (very
brief!) experimentation. But like many 'bents, once you're used to the
differences from "normal" it's remarkably stable with very little
steering input.

> On the Bikefix website there is a great photo of Herr Burrows using an
> 8Freight to transport a Ratcatcher. Impressed.

Mine's done the easier job of the Brompton. Ride to station to collect
friend, she goes on the Brom, her bag goes in the back of the 8, we ride
home. Quite a neat setup!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

dkahn400 wrote:

> I can't believe the weight of the derailleur hanger is a serious
> consideration on a load lugger like the 8Freight.

Does seem a bit odd, but having said that... it is remarkably light for
what it is, at about 20 Kg (to put this in perspective, abut the same
weight as the Streetmachine!). The balance point when it's unladen is
at the front of the load area and I can pick the whole bike up with two
fingers around the load area's enclosing frame just behind the saddle.
Compare and contrast with a more typical Bakfiets and I think you'll
notice quite a difference up a hill!

Normal weightweenyism is about getting an extra 0.1 mph up the hill,
with freight bikes it's more about whether you get off and walk or not...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch wrote:
> I did wonder if it would want downgearing when I got it, having got
it
> up Blackness Road okay empty but thinking 50 Kg of coal would put
paid
> to that. But trying it I found it was okay.

I'm sure you've answered this before, but what is the gearing range on
yours?

> Yes. It won't ride no-handed, or such is my impression with (very
> brief!) experimentation. But like many 'bents, once you're used to
the
> differences from "normal" it's remarkably stable with very little
> steering input.

I'd be concerned about going downhill with a full load - but much less
concerned than if I was carrying the same load on a trailer.

And talking of going downhill with a full load... what are the brakes
like?

d.

davek wrote:

> I'm sure you've answered this before, but what is the gearing range on
> yours?

According to the review at
http://www.velovision.co.uk/mag/issue9/8freight.pdf it's 28-85", which
seems about right. I wouldn't object to bottom being lower but I
wouldn't want to bring top down by a third! That review was what really
turned me on to the idea of the bike, and it seems fair comment looking
back at it with hindsight

> I'd be concerned about going downhill with a full load - but much less
> concerned than if I was carrying the same load on a trailer.

> And talking of going downhill with a full load... what are the brakes
> like?

They're okay. Not your hydraulic discs by any stretch of the
imagination but they do the job, and Dundee has some Real Hills (TM)
where I've tried them out...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

in message <1115719074.824823.93610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Jon
is Away! ('jon@restlesslemon.co.uk') wrote:

> 5: My colleagues were very impressed. One guy was semi-seriously
> interested in getting one for the company with appropriate branding
> for small deliveries around town. Jobs where a large box van is just
> too big. That may be the challenge for the year.

In the issue of VeloVision on freight bikes recently there was an
article about an audio-visual firm in London who use a specially
adapted 8freight. It had tubes along the outside of the freight area
for carrying projection screens, and possibly some other adaptations.
The company using it said it was very effective both as a marketing aid
and in moving stuff rapidly in inner city areas.

I could look out the article if you like.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; When your hammer is C++, everything begins to look like a thumb.

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Bikefix will let you have a test ride or short-term hire if you want
to
> give one a proper go before spending the readies.

I'm not sure that the Bike Station isn't missing out on a marketing
opportunity here. They have 2 x 8Freights and One Less Car trike which
could be hired out as either manned or unmanned. Instead, they do seem
to spend a large amount of time collecting dust. I'm sure that they do
get used, but it'd be great to see them out on the streets with the
Bike Station logo on the sides.

Jon