Partial tear of Gastrocnemius-to-Achilles junction

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9 days ago I partly tore the junction of my Gastrocnemius to my Achilles tendon
in my right calf, while running. The history of the injury is so stupid on my
part that it may as well be considered self-inflicted, and would be instructive
only in a "what not to do as a runner" way, so I will omit it. More
importantly, does anyone have experience with healing this injury or another
similar muscle-tendon junction? Here's what I have been doing so far:

Day 1 -- couldn't even walk Day 2 -- could limp Day 3 --
could walk semi-normally, started taking supplements
including glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM; a complete amino
acid mix; calcium/magnesium, bromelain. They do seem to
help, though it could be a "placebo" effect. Day 4 --
swelling down, color returning to normal. Tried to jog
stretches of 40-50 feet to test it. No way. Day 5 -- still
feeling better, jog test still negative. Day 6 -- jog test
unclear, didn't try a run. Day 7 -- walked about a mile, jog
test still uncertain. Day 8 -- jog test seemed okay, planned
a run for day 9. Day 9 -- Went out to run slowly, and at
about 0.5 miles the injury seized up and I knew I was done.
Walked/jogged back, and was mad about having to quit so I
tested the injury on my bike. To my surprise, I can ride
just fine. I guess this makes sense -- biking always gives
me frog legs, big thighs but not calves.

So, where I'm at is that I'm going to be biking until I can
run, I guess. This injury is incredibly painful -- it feels
like a giant cramp that won't go away -- when it hits. What
else can I do besides rest and cross-train to speed up
healing this? Any estimates of how long this is going to
keep me from running? When I return to running, how can I
minimize the likelihood of re-injury?

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To,"
"Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

TC,

I'd work on massaging out the anterior tibialis to make sure
that it's not pulling against the calf muscle when it should
be relaxing.

If there's a tear at the musculotendon junction, then it
tell me that the gascroc is holding somewhere up above and
in the belly of the gastroc. Also I'd push in deep to see if
the soleus is holding on.

Can't figure if the tear is on the inside or outside of the
gastroc on the back of your right calf.

Remember fascia tightens up around knotted or injured muscle
tissue. When that tissue heals, the fascia often remains
shortened and contracted and needs some rolfing or
transverse friction to loosen the fascial sheath.

Seated in a chair strangle the right calf with one thumb
over the other so that you can go in fairly deep. Go up onto
the ball of the right foot and feel the calf contract. Leave
the knee up and lower the heel without lowering the knee,
i.e. stretching away the heel from the elevated knee. As you
do and feel the muscle let go, allow the thumbs to go in a
little deeper. Remember do no create pain, as you'll only
get a reflex reaction that will tighten up what you are
attempting to relax.

Let us know how it goes

In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer -
rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est.
1975

Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-
faq/

In article <20040412194107.08046.00000311@mb-m11.aol.com>,
TopCounsel <topcounsel@aol.com> wrote:

> 9 days ago I partly tore the junction of my Gastrocnemius
> to my Achilles tendon in my right calf, while running. The
> history of the injury is so stupid on my part that it may
> as well be considered self-inflicted, and would be
> instructive only in a "what not to do as a runner" way, so
> I will omit it. More importantly, does anyone have
> experience with healing this injury or another similar muscle-
> tendon junction? Here's what I have been doing so far:
>
> Day 1 -- couldn't even walk Day 2 -- could limp Day 3 --
> could walk semi-normally, started taking supplements
> including glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM; a complete amino
> acid mix; calcium/magnesium, bromelain. They do seem to
> help, though it could be a "placebo" effect. Day 4 --
> swelling down, color returning to normal. Tried to jog
> stretches of 40-50 feet to test it. No way. Day 5 -- still
> feeling better, jog test still negative. Day 6 -- jog test
> unclear, didn't try a run. Day 7 -- walked about a mile,
> jog test still uncertain. Day 8 -- jog test seemed okay,
> planned a run for day 9. Day 9 -- Went out to run slowly,
> and at about 0.5 miles the injury seized up and I knew I
> was done. Walked/jogged back, and was mad about having to
> quit so I tested the injury on my bike. To my surprise, I
> can ride just fine. I guess this makes sense -- biking
> always gives me frog legs, big thighs but not calves.
>
> So, where I'm at is that I'm going to be biking until I
> can run, I guess. This injury is incredibly painful -- it
> feels like a giant cramp that won't go away -- when it
> hits. What else can I do besides rest and cross-train to
> speed up healing this? Any estimates of how long this is
> going to keep me from running? When I return to running,
> how can I minimize the likelihood of re-injury?

TopCounsel wrote:

> 9 days ago I partly tore the junction of my Gastrocnemius
> to my Achilles tendon in my right calf, while running.
<snip>
>
> So, where I'm at is that I'm going to be biking until I
> can run, I guess. This injury is incredibly painful -- it
> feels like a giant cramp that won't go away -- when it
> hits. What else can I do besides rest and cross-train to
> speed up healing this? Any estimates of how long this is
> going to keep me from running? When I return to running,
> how can I minimize the likelihood of re-injury?

Can't help with specifics but one thing I've discovered (and
maybe it's old age and slow healing) is that I need to let
things heal reasonably (don't ask me to define) before test
running or applying more pressure or whatever. In the past,
if it feels *almost* there, I'd try a run or bump up a
strength routine - and end up setting myself back. A short
run/walk may help healing in some cases - or be too much in
others. I've since gotten a better feeling of what things
feel like in various drills and what that allows me to do
while running - so I don't try running steep hills until my
drills suggest it's ok. Some motion (in your case, the
biking) helps circulation, mending properly, and healing,
but too much pressure, like jogging, seems to undo things
(at least for me, YMMV). I could give you all kinds of
suggestions for AT drills, but it sounds like you're beyond
anything I've done.

Good luck with healing.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

TopCounsel wrote:

> So, where I'm at is that I'm going to be biking until I
> can run, I guess. This injury is incredibly painful -- it
> feels like a giant cramp that won't go away -- when it
> hits. What else can I do besides rest and cross-train to
> speed up healing this?

Find a massage therapist that specializes in sports people
and do what s/he tells you. Careful of any cross training
that even goes nears your soleus/gastroc.

> When I return to running, how can I minimize the
> likelihood of re-injury?

Strengthen the hell out of them?

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" dfreeseS@NOBShvc.rr.com

>Can't help with specifics but one thing I've discovered
>(and maybe it's old age and slow healing) is that I need to
>let things heal reasonably (don't ask me to define) before
>test running or applying more pressure or whatever. In the
>past, if it feels *almost* there, I'd try a run or bump up
>a strength routine - and end up setting myself back.

Thanks, Dot. You make a good point, as I know only too well
that I rushed it and didn't even do that smartly. For
example, I know from prior experience with an Achilles
problem that I should use heel lifts for awhile, but I
didn't even do that when I reinjured myself yesterday.
Sheesh. Sometimes I feel like I'm 45 years going on 90. It
is evident that I will probably have a slower recovery on
this tear than I want, but I shouldn't let my early
Alzheimer's make things worse!

>Find a massage therapist that specializes in sports people
>and do what s/he tells you. Careful of any cross training
>that even goes nears your soleus/gastroc.

Thanks for your reply, Doug. The massage is even now, while
it's still painful, or for later as the injury has reached
the point where I'm at least jogging?

As to the cross-training, I'm going to swim and bike, and
won't go near a basketball court for sure.

>> When I return to running, how can I minimize the
>> likelihood of re-injury?

>Strengthen the hell out of them?

My "Y" membership will come in handy here, but what specific
lifts should I do? For legs, I know only 3 things from my
limited weights knowledge: Leg Presses; Lower leg lifts (the
seated thing where you raise your lower legs against
resistance); and squats (don't really want to do those,
because of the knee stress -- running seems like its enough
knee strain). Which of these do you think would be good? Are
there others I should consider?

I appreciate your detailed reply, Ozzie.

>Can't figure if the tear is on the inside or outside of the
>gastroc on the back of your right calf.

It feels "dead center," sort of where the two gastroc
"halves" join the tendon. (??)

>When that tissue heals, the fascia often remains shortened
>and contracted and needs some rolfing or transverse
>friction to loosen the fascial sheath.

So this is the "deep massage" (which Doug also suggested to
me)? Do I start this now, or wait until the area is not so
bruised and tender?

>As you do and feel the muscle let go, allow the thumbs to
>go in a little deeper. Remember do no create pain,

Right now, this definitely does hurt!

TopCounsel wrote:

>
>>> When I return to running, how can I minimize the
>>> likelihood of re-injury?
>
>
>>Strengthen the hell out of them?
>
>
> My "Y" membership will come in handy here, but what
> specific lifts should I do?

Note that Doug said "strengthen". That doesn't necessarily
mean weights, but I suppose "lifts" are one way of
strengthening ;) I'll leave "lifts" to someone else. Here's
what I've been using to strengthen calves and achilles -
AFTER initial healing.

_________
(I just snipped this from one of my old posts more for
ankle but also help for anything in the calf - achilles -
foot area)

Some of the things I've used for ankle strengtheners include
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0125.htm I know it says for
achilles heel, but the principles is strengthening the
ankle. This is a subset of the ones I do which include
lateral and diagonally backward motion as well as the
forward and diagonally forward direction. The idea is to
strengthen in all 3 planes of motion.

This summarizes some others I use.
http://www.painreliever.com/exercises_ankle.html

An intro to proprioception and balance
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/library/weekly/aa062200.htm
_________

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/0031a-achilles-
tendonitis.htm http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0031.htm
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0832.htm

Here's some stuff on squats
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0827b.htm

I don't have the flexibility to get into a full squat, but
partial ones work well for me - and I generally do them
single legged to strengthen the foot/ankle muscles used in
balance, moving the other leg in various directions and
closing eyes for some of them. Some of this is good
proprioception training also.

When reasonably healed, I use calf raises - 1- or 2-footed,
flat or sloped (since I need the hill aspect), unweighted
and eventually weighted - to strengthen that area, but also
need to massage and stretch to keep it loose. When doing
these on slope, I get the eccentric movement better than
when flat. I progress through the various kinds, starting
with the easiest. The calf raises are probably my best
indicator of whether I should be running and how big the
hills I can deal with. For me, gentle hills help
substantially in rebuilding strength and use this in
combination with the calf raises. When I can do more reps
or more advanced forms comfortably with the calf raises,
then I can increase the size of hills or the number and
progress onward.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Having injured my Achilles area several times over 2x years
of running, I will give you my lessons learned. I run lots
of hills: from 4,000 to my record of 19,000 feet of
climbing per week.

1. Stop immediately if there's pain. Walk home, call the
wife, whatever it takes. Last February, I broke down in
the middle of nowhere on a 30 mile run. My friends went
on, and I hiked 4 miles to a phone, and asked wife to
dispatch the limo.

I was fine 4 days later.

2. Icing the area dramatically decreases healing time.
Apply ice 'till it starts to hurt, let it warm up a bit
(5-10 mins), then do it again. Repeat several times a
day for maximum effect.

3. Never run if the area aches or has sharp twinges.

4. Stretch only if you can do so without pain. If it hurts,
you're probably reinjuring the area. If it's just tight,
you can, and should stretch it.

5. Recovery time = (number of days you didn't do the above)
to the 3rd power.

6. Stretching (I typically stand on a step and let one heel
drop under my body weight) makes it less likely that
you'll injure it.

7. Most of my Achilles episodes have been at times when
I've gotten out of the habit of stretching.

--Dan

"TopCounsel" <topcounsel@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040412194107.08046.00000311@mb-
m11.aol.com...
> 9 days ago I partly tore the junction of my Gastrocnemius
> to my Achilles
tendon
> in my right calf, while running. The history of the injury
> is so stupid
on my
> part that it may as well be considered self-inflicted, and
> would be
instructive
> only in a "what not to do as a runner" way, so I will omit
> it. More importantly, does anyone have experience with
> healing this injury or
another
> similar muscle-tendon junction? Here's what I have been
> doing so far:
>
> Day 1 -- couldn't even walk Day 2 -- could limp Day 3 --
> could walk semi-normally, started taking supplements
> including glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM; a complete amino
> acid mix;
calcium/magnesium,
> bromelain. They do seem to help, though it could be a
> "placebo" effect. Day 4 -- swelling down, color returning
> to normal. Tried to jog stretches
of
> 40-50 feet to test it. No way. Day 5 -- still feeling
> better, jog test still negative. Day 6 -- jog test
> unclear, didn't try a run. Day 7 -- walked about a mile,
> jog test still uncertain. Day 8 -- jog test seemed okay,
> planned a run for day 9. Day 9 -- Went out to run slowly,
> and at about 0.5 miles the injury seized
up
> and I knew I was done. Walked/jogged back, and was mad
> about having to
quit so
> I tested the injury on my bike. To my surprise, I can ride
> just fine. I
guess
> this makes sense -- biking always gives me frog legs, big
> thighs but not calves.
>
> So, where I'm at is that I'm going to be biking until I
> can run, I guess.
This
> injury is incredibly painful -- it feels like a giant
> cramp that won't go
away
> -- when it hits. What else can I do besides rest and cross-
> train to speed
up
> healing this? Any estimates of how long this is going to
> keep me from
running?
> When I return to running, how can I minimize the
> likelihood of re-injury?

"Ozzie Gontang" <gontang215@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:120420042020264219%gontang215@sbcglobal.net...
> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To,"
> "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
>
> TC,
>
> I'd work on massaging out the anterior tibialis to make
> sure that it's not pulling against the calf muscle when it
> should be relaxing.
>
> If there's a tear at the musculotendon junction, then it
> tell me that the gascroc is holding somewhere up above and
> in the belly of the gastroc. Also I'd push in deep to see
> if the soleus is holding on.
>
> Can't figure if the tear is on the inside or outside of
> the gastroc on the back of your right calf.
>
> Remember fascia tightens up around knotted or injured
> muscle tissue. When that tissue heals, the fascia often
> remains shortened and contracted and needs some rolfing or
> transverse friction to loosen the fascial sheath.
>
> Seated in a chair strangle the right calf with one thumb
> over the other so that you can go in fairly deep. Go up
> onto the ball of the right foot and feel the calf
> contract.

Leave the knee up and lower the
> heel without lowering the knee, i.e. stretching away the
> heel from the elevated knee.

Please explain the above "sentence". When my knee moves up
or down, the heel goes with it, thank goodness. No amount of
stretching changes the spacing between the heel and knee.
What does "stretching away the heel" mean?

Thanks VM.

As you do and feel the muscle let go, allow the thumbs
> to go in a little deeper. Remember do no create pain, as
> you'll only get a reflex reaction that will tighten up
> what you are attempting to relax.
>
> Let us know how it goes
>
>
> In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer -
> rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic,
> est. 1975
>
> Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
>
>
> In article <20040412194107.08046.00000311@mb-m11.aol.com>,
> TopCounsel <topcounsel@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > 9 days ago I partly tore the junction of my
> > Gastrocnemius to my Achilles tendon in my right calf,
> > while running. The history of the injury is so stupid
on my
> > part that it may as well be considered self-inflicted,
> > and would be instructive only in a "what not to do as a
> > runner" way, so I will omit it. More importantly, does
> > anyone have experience with healing this injury or
another
> > similar muscle-tendon junction? Here's what I have been
> > doing so far:
> >
> > Day 1 -- couldn't even walk Day 2 -- could limp Day 3 --
> > could walk semi-normally, started taking supplements
> > including glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM; a complete
> > amino acid mix;
calcium/magnesium,
> > bromelain. They do seem to help, though it could be a
> > "placebo" effect. Day 4 -- swelling down, color
> > returning to normal. Tried to jog
stretches of
> > 40-50 feet to test it. No way. Day 5 -- still feeling
> > better, jog test still negative. Day 6 -- jog test
> > unclear, didn't try a run. Day 7 -- walked about a mile,
> > jog test still uncertain. Day 8 -- jog test seemed okay,
> > planned a run for day 9. Day 9 -- Went out to run
> > slowly, and at about 0.5 miles the injury
seized up
> > and I knew I was done. Walked/jogged back, and was mad
> > about having to
quit
> > so I tested the injury on my bike. To my surprise, I can
> > ride just fine.
I
> > guess this makes sense -- biking always gives me frog
> > legs, big thighs but not calves.
> >
> > So, where I'm at is that I'm going to be biking until I
> > can run, I
guess.
> > This injury is incredibly painful -- it feels like a
> > giant cramp that won't
go away
> > -- when it hits. What else can I do besides rest and cross-
> > train to
speed up
> > healing this? Any estimates of how long this is going to
> > keep me from running? When I return to running, how can
> > I minimize the likelihood of
re-injury?

>1. Stop immediately if there's pain. Walk home, call the
> wife, whatever it
takes.

Not doing this was one of the major errors I committed that
got me into this mess....

>3. Never run if the area aches or has sharp twinges.

This is a rule I violate regularly as to knees and other
areas. As to this torn muscle thing, I really have no choice
anymore but to follow the restriction.

>4. Stretch only if you can do so without pain. If it
> hurts, you're probably reinjuring the area.

I agree wholeheartedly with this comment about stretching.

>5. Recovery time = (number of days you didn't do the
> above) to the 3rd power.

By the cube? Sheesh. That's brutal.

>6. Stretching (I typically stand on a step and let one
> heel drop under my body weight) makes it less likely
> that you'll injure it.

Not sure I understand this movement as you've described
it. Probably the Bromelain supplements I'm taking are
clouding my mind.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Dan.

Day 12 follow-up:

Thanks to a Canadian fellow who contacted me directly to
recommend I increase my Bromelain dose from the mere 45mg I
get in my regular supplement to over 2000mg 3x/day. I have
done so, and have noticed a nearly immediate decrease in
swelling. Bromelain is supposed to be an anti-inflammatory
and also is supposed to aid in the metabolism of
proteins/amino acids for healing muscle injuries. It is a
naturally-occurring pineapple enzyme.

Actually got in a 5.3-mile jog/walk today at an overall pace
of about 10:20/mi. Normally I don't do anything this slowly
except age wine, but I'm just glad to get some miles in at
any pace. In order to get the "run" in, I ran as slowly as I
possibly could and still be running, and purposely walked on
every uphill stretch, and stopped to walk a few yards
whenever I felt a twinge in the gastroc. The uphills scare
me because of the extra calf stretch/strain.

Anyway, I got through it without disaster, but it has
swelled up on me and I have it wrapped in gel-ice. Still,
this is better than I though I could do. The injury has
lightened to a diffuse light-olive color, nothing too
traumatic anymore.

Question for the experts: Will an injury like this, once it
is healed, result in a stronger muscle where it was torn --
in the way bones are stronger where they have fractured and
healed -- or will this likely be a weak point and a thorn in
my side from now on?

In my general experience, the more you run when it hurts,
the more likely an injury is to become a permanent weak
spot. In addition, tendons don't get much blood, so they
heal slowly and in some cases never repair to their prior
strength. (per my physical therapist)

I tried to run through an Achilles pull back about 18 years
ago. I turned what should have been a 4 day layoff, followed
by a gradual ramp-up, into 6 weeks of frustration and
glacial healing. Wouldn't you know it, that is the one which
occasionally gets reinjured.

I also ran a 2:45 marathon (close to my PR at the time) with
a very tight hamstring (a slight pull) on my left leg, and
that upper attachment area (a tendon) has been tight and
prone to injury ever since, 20 yrs later.

Also, anti-inflamatories are not necessarily a Good Thing.
Inflamation increases blood flow to the area, and therefore
promotes healing. I now rarely take them, and I find that
I'm much less sore generally (I run 80 miles/week and am not
a young whipper-snapper) I only take them when the pain gets
to me -- e.g., after a 50 mile mountain race when every step
hurts my quads.

I'll shut up now.

--Dan

"TopCounsel" <topcounsel@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040414162224.10386.00000322@mb-
m12.aol.com...
> Day 12 follow-up:
>
> Thanks to a Canadian fellow who contacted me directly to
> recommend I
increase
> my Bromelain dose from the mere 45mg I get in my regular
> supplement to
over
> 2000mg 3x/day. I have done so, and have noticed a nearly
> immediate
decrease in
> swelling. Bromelain is supposed to be an anti-inflammatory
> and also is supposed to aid in the metabolism of
> proteins/amino acids for healing
muscle
> injuries. It is a naturally-occurring pineapple enzyme.
>
> Actually got in a 5.3-mile jog/walk today at an overall
> pace of about
10:20/mi.
> Normally I don't do anything this slowly except age wine,
> but I'm just
glad to
> get some miles in at any pace. In order to get the "run"
> in, I ran as
slowly
> as I possibly could and still be running, and purposely
> walked on every
uphill
> stretch, and stopped to walk a few yards whenever I felt a
> twinge in the gastroc. The uphills scare me because of the
> extra calf stretch/strain.
>
> Anyway, I got through it without disaster, but it has
> swelled up on me and
I
> have it wrapped in gel-ice. Still, this is better than I
> though I could
do.
> The injury has lightened to a diffuse light-olive color,
> nothing too
traumatic
> anymore.
>
> Question for the experts: Will an injury like this, once
> it is healed,
result
> in a stronger muscle where it was torn -- in the way bones
> are stronger
where
> they have fractured and healed -- or will this likely be a
> weak point and
a
> thorn in my side from now on?

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To,"
"Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <c5i3ru$1v3ll$1@ID-127845.news.uni-berlin.de>,
Bill <utthitaxpam@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Leave the knee up and lower the
> > heel without lowering the knee, i.e. stretching away the
> > heel from the elevated knee.
>
> Please explain the above "sentence". When my knee moves up
> or down, the heel goes with it, thank goodness. No amount
> of stretching changes the spacing between the heel and
> knee. What does "stretching away the heel" mean?
>
> Thanks VM.
Bill

When the knee moves up while leaving the ball of the foot on
the ground, the calf muscles contract. Leaving the knee, and
the ball of the foot on the ground, I can relax the calf
muscle. As it relaxes, the heel stretches away from the
lifted knee. The pushing of the fingers into the belly of
the calf is used as a biofeedback letting me know the calf
is relaxing and allowing the heel to stretch further away
from the back of the knee.

Think of the shins as rubber bands on the front of the foot,
and the calves as rubber bands on the back of the foot. If
the rubber band relaxes on the heel, the heel moves away
from the knee without the knee following.

Is that of any help explaining it?

Ozzie

> Umm...Are you trying to tell me you think I'm probably
> better off not to
run
> right now? Remember now that I'm not too bright when it
> comes to this type
of
> decision. ; )

Only you can answer that question.

Note, however, that even if you take 5 days off, you lose
only 1% of your conditioning. I once ran a 10k pr after not
running a step for 6 days (due to a hip injury).

> The part of me that is hurt is definitely the muscle,
> right near where it
joins
> the tendon. The Achilles tendon itself seems fine (I've
> experienced
tendinitis
> before, and this ain't it). Does this make a difference in
> your opinion?

It will heal faster if you don't aggrivate it. If you can
walk up some hills without it hurting, you'll be able to get
a good cardio workout. Try the old Mt. Wilson trail just
east of Baldwin. You'll get your money's worth just fast
hiking! That's where I went when I pulled a hamstring and
couldn't run a step without pain. It's a 7.5 mile to climb
5600 feet elevation, and it's beautiful all the way. On
weekends there are many eco-femmes, there, too :-)

--Dan

Dan Stumpus wrote:

> It will heal faster if you don't aggrivate it. If you can
> walk up some hills without it hurting, you'll be able to
> get a good cardio workout.

Dan, I would be very weary of suggesting any hill/speed work
while the calf is in a tender state. I think it's too early
to put stress in the sloeus, gastroc area. An easy level
walk as long as it causes no discomfort.

Were you kidding?

> On weekends there are many eco-femmes, there, too :-)

Take the bus and enjoy the views. :)

Topdude asked:
>>So this is the "deep massage" (which Doug also suggested
>>to me)? Do I start this now, or wait until the area is
>>not so bruised
and >>tender?

Thats a really good question. My MT likes to work on me a
day or two after a race while my muscles are still tender
but uses a very light hand. Now tender, aka lots of little
tears is different than your condition. I would call the MT
and ask what they think.

As long as it's still tender I would ice the hell out of it
a few times a day and not stretch. Stretching a vulnerable
tear is not good.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" dfreeseS@NOBShvc.rr.com

"Doug Freese" wrote

> Dan Stumpus wrote:
>
>
> > It will heal faster if you don't aggrivate it. If you
> > can walk up some hills without it hurting, you'll be
> > able to get a good cardio workout.
>
> Dan, I would be very weary of suggesting any hill/speed
> work while the calf is in a tender state. I think it's too
> early to put stress in the sloeus, gastroc area. An easy
> level walk as long as it causes no discomfort.
>
> Were you kidding?

No, my suggestion was conditioned on there being no pain.
I've had some injuries to achilles and hamstring where I
could *walk* uphill without pain -- it was the springing
motion of running that hurt.

In the instant case an uphill walk probably would hurt,
since the bruising sounds like a classic muscle tear,
meaning very little stress on the muscles is in order.
However, as it heals, there will probably be a point where
hiking is fine, but running isn't yet.

The eco femme's may have to wait...

--Dan

. "TopCounsel" <topcounsel@aol.com> wrote

> >Note, however, that even if you take 5 days off, you lose
> >only 1% of your conditioning.
>
> And if the "running" you do at the end of those 5 days is
> at 10:20 pace?
Hmm.
> Not sure that's even a fitness-maintenance pace. First
> time I ever recall running over 5 miles and not breaking a
> sweat or even breathing hard.

To put it in perspective, if you averaged that pace over the
hilly catalina 50 mile course, you would have finished 8th
overall this year. That pace will also win 100 mile trail
races. Sounds easy, doesn't it? :-)

That 1% decline -- it might be 1.5%, my memory is fuzzy on
this -- is with no exercise, so you're cheating...

Also, you don't need to breathe hard every time you
run...this is especially true if you run lots of miles every
day. I always program several days/week at an easy (130-135
pulse) effort

--Dan

The long ones are a lot of fun, great scenery, you're
allowed to walk up hills, and there's time to make friends
and eat and drink properly. It's all about preparation,
pacing, and desire.

The people who ran around 10:20 pace at Catalina this year
were in 3:10 to
3:15 marathon shape, fyi.

Also, you run 12+ minute miles uphill, and 7+ minute
miles down, typically. You're working it all the time on
a hilly course.

--Dan

"TopCounsel" <topcounsel@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040416120611.00537.00000422@mb-
m07.aol.com...
> >To put it in perspective, if you averaged that pace over
> >the hilly
catalina
> >50 mile course, you would have finished 8th overall this
> >year. That pace will also win 100 mile trail races.
> >Sounds easy, doesn't it? :-)
>
> Put that way, it DOES sound easy. While running that pace
> over just 5
miles,
> it felt like I could in fact go on forever at that pace
> (except for my
current
> injury, which was definitely telling me to quit, and the
> mental strain of having to concentrate on every footing to
> avoid further injury)! Perhaps
when
> I'm healthy I should consider one of these long, long
> events you and Doug
are
> so fond of. When uninjured, I don't mind running hills at
> all -- I kind
of
> welcome them -- an artifact of lots and lots of biking,
> probably.

I did exactly your sequence of rest, get antsy and
ambitious, reinjure, rest again, try again, reinjure again,
and again, probably 3 or 4 times with the same injury
(probably a bit higher in the calf than yours but no big
difference) before I decided to take everyone's advice here
and quit for 6 weeks. I cross trained with rowing (conept II
rowing ergometer) which also rehabbed/strengthened the calf
without overtaxing it into further injury. Tons of
stretching. Even got a few sessions of therapeutic massage
therapy. I think biking would be a fine thing to
do. It will strengthen, yet not be jarring and not be
nearly as taxing as running. I wouldn't do even a
minute of biking until the pain is gone.

I'm sure the folks here will recommend lots of good
approaches and even websites with rehab info.

Best of luck. -- Josh in Syracuse