weight training

ric_stern/RST

Duckwah wrote:<br />1. The foundation of all human movement is a degree of limit strength. Even marathon runners and long distance cyclists need strength to run or ride and therefore limit strength training should be included in the base mesocycle of any periodised plan.<br /><br />The strength required to perform such tasks as cycling and running are minimal. Endurance cycling is limited by lactate threshold and VO2max. Untrained, (but healthy) age and sex matched individuals can easily ride at the power output requirements that are required for racing. However, they cannot sustain the effort for long enough, nor can they complete the work at a lower enough intensity. There is no difference in strength between untrained age and sex matched individuals, and cyclists.<br /><br />Strength is *NOT* a limiting factor in endurance cycling for healthy cyclists. The limiting factors are aerobic metabolism and associated pathways, i.e., VO2 max, lactate threshold, oxidative enzymes, capillary density, type i fibres, etc.<br /><br />2) is correct<br /><br />3) I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but if you mean that you're going to transfer strength gains made in the gym to cycling then you're wrong as this *doesn't* happen.<br /><br />Depending of course on what you mean by the average cyclist (this may very well differ between countries), then i don't believe that weight training is of any use performance wise to a cyclist.<br /><br />Even in fun and fitness riders (whose fitness may be 'low' compared to a racing cyclist), while weight training may have a beneficial effect (as would any exercise modality), the *best* gains would come from cycle training.<br /><br />If you're short of time -- ride your bike<br />if you want to get better at cycling -- ride your bike<br />if you want to get better at racing -- ride your bike<br /><br />Ric

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Rhodent

One question ricstern, what is the consensus on strengthening stabiliser muscles? I know that in a lot of sports now they are concentrating on exercises to strengthen these and they appear to have some good effect? Surely exercises to strengthen the stomach and back muscles a little beyond a normal persons levels would be useful in providing support to the leg muscles and allowing them to be more efficiently used?<br /><br />

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ric_stern/RST

Endurance cycling is a really low strength sport, and is also one that requires little in the way of motor skills. Sure, there is some requirement to being able sit in one position on a bike for xxx number of hours, but this requires very little strength. The effort of sitting on the bike is a very small percentage of your strength, and as such is best trained by riding your bike.<br /><br />Adaptations, take place at the specific joint and angle velocities that they are trained at. For instance, the classic test of this is to do weight training, and over a period of ~ 6 weeks the amount of weight that you can lift can double (e.g., if when you start you can lift 40 kg, after 6 weeks it maybe 80 kg). This would look like an impressive increase in strength. However, when you use the same muscles, but in a different exercise pattern, there is either no increase in strength (from baseline) or a very small increase. What this means is, is that the muscle has only learnt to increase it's 'strength' at the angle and velocity it was trained at -- this is a neuromuscular adaptation.<br /><br />Therefore, trying to increase the strength of (e.g.) abdominal or back muscles won't actually help being on the bike, or for that matter doing (e.g.) leg presses.<br /><br />There are reasons for doing weight training, e.g., you have other tasks to do that may require strength (e.g., lots of manual work such as lifting), you want to look 'muscley', or you may be recovering from an injury that has caused an impairment such as a broken arm. <br /><br />The skill required in pedalling a bike, is basically the simplest motor skill that can be learnt in terms of sport. Because our legs/feet are fixed around a revolving point (fixed to pedal, revolve around b/brkt), efficiency is *very* similar between untrained, unfit, never ridden a bike before people, and elite athletes who could/have won the TdF. From memory, untrained people have an efficiency of ~ 18% (at a relative low effort), whilst, well trained elite (at the same relative low effort, different absolute level) would be about 22 - 25% efficient.<br /><br />It's also worth bearing in mind that efficiency doesn't really change with the style of pedalling, but decreases at higher cadences (at a given workload) and increases at higher absolute workload (i.e., as power increases).<br /><br />In endurance cycling, it is all about being able to increase your (aerobic) power output, which is trained by targetting increases in (e.g.) VO2 max, lactate threshold, capillary density, % type I fibres, mitochondrial density etc., and not strength.<br /><br />Most people are limited by the amount of time that they have to train (because e.g., school, work, family, etc), and any time that you spend away from the bike on another exercise modality will hurt your cycling performance. <br /><br />Cyclists often say to me, (e.g.), &amp;quot;i've only got 45-mins to train during weekday evenings, surely it's better to do a tough weight session&amp;quot;. To which i reply, &amp;quot;no, you can do far better with a tough (or even moderate) bike session in that time.&amp;quot;<br /><br />

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maarten

duckwah says:<br />2. Bodybuilding style programs of 8-12 reps with up to 80% of max weight should be avoided like the plague because they will promote muscle mass and not strength.<br /><br /><br />There is more to weight lifting and fitness exercises than that Rabobank use 30 reps series and seems to have excellent results with it.<br /><br />rickstern says:<br /><br />Most people are limited by the amount of time that they have to train (because e.g., school, work, family, etc), and any time that you spend away from the bike on another exercise modality will hurt your cycling performance. <br /><br />There are theories who also says that variing between ways of training keeps your mind clear because its less monotonous which gives you the ability to sustain more training mentally. And that if you don't vary enough monoynous training make's you reach a progression stop way earlier. Any comment one this?<br /><br />A non cycling question kan I extend this Cyclist needs to cycle to other sports? Ice skaters who seem to train a lot on bicyles are they wasting their time. Soccer players seem to do running exercises without their Ball are they wasting there time? And cyclists are people like Eadie and Tournant wasting their time in fitness centers, should they lways be racing on the track? <br /><br />My point is in my opinion you seem to have a problem with all forms of weight training or even other cross training. I think you are somewhat wrong over there and certeinly extending cyclist need to cyle to all the variations whe have in cycling and certainly with track cyling seems way to drasctic to say.<br /><br />

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ric_stern/RST

[quote author=ricstern link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=20#msg24042 date=1041963769]<br />Most people are limited by the amount of time that they have to train (because e.g., school, work, family, etc), and any time that you spend away from the bike on another exercise modality will hurt your cycling performance. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />[quote author=maarten link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=20#msg24042 date=1041963769]<br />There are theories who also says that variing between ways of training keeps your mind clear because its less monotonous which gives you the ability to sustain more training mentally. And that if you don't vary enough monoynous training make's you reach a progression stop way earlier. Any comment one this?<br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br />Sure, burnout could be a problem, but it's unlikely to happen to happen to someone who is time limited, and with a good training routine. But, that's a completely separate issue to that which was being pursued originally.<br /><br />[quote author=maarten link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=20#msg24042 date=1041963769]<br />A non cycling question kan I extend this Cyclist needs to cycle to other sports? Ice skaters who seem to train a lot on bicyles are they wasting their time. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />When you talk about ice skaters, i'm not sure if you're referring to figure skaters or speed skaters. If you're talking about figure skating, while i don't have any figures or research to hand, then my intuition suggests that figure skaters are 'low' fitness compared to trained cyclists, and thus as previously mentioned, in low fitness groups any exercise increases fitness.<br /><br />Whilst, i don't coach speed skaters, and therefore, don't know overly much, perhaps they x-train with cycling in the summer to avoid the monotony of circling a rink, which would have definite shades of burnout/boredom as you previously mentioned above. furthermore, as cycling is an aerobic activity and as i guess some speed skating events are endurance base there will be cardio vascular crossover -- unlike weight training which isn't an aerobic activity.<br /><br />[quote author=maarten link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=20#msg24042 date=1041963769]<br />Soccer players seem to do running exercises without their Ball are they wasting there time? <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Are you just being daft here? Soccer, has an endurance aspect - hence the run training and a skill (therefore, running with ball).<br /><br />[quote author=maarten link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=20#msg24042 date=1041963769]<br />And cyclists are people like Eadie and Tournant wasting their time in fitness centers, should they lways be racing on the track? <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Reread what i said. I said endurance cycling. 1-km TT is something else....<br /><br />[quote author=maarten link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=20#msg24042 date=1041963769]<br />My point is in my opinion you seem to have a problem with all forms of weight training or even other cross training. I think you are somewhat wrong over there and certeinly extending cyclist need to cyle to all the variations whe have in cycling and certainly with track cyling seems way to drasctic to say.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I said that the *bulk* of the *primary* scientific literature does not support x-training or weight training to help endurance cycling. Apart from the previous study you mentioned, (which shows that weight training signifcantly prevents a decline in 30-sec all out effort), what other *primary research* shows your point of view? On the other hand the *bulk* shows no effect or detrimental.<br /><br />Ric<br /><br /><br />fixed up quotes - steve

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maarten

There is also talk of power beiing a limiting factor in cycling. The comparisions made are between the average power needed. Well isn't a limit important in refference with the max power needed. for recreational riding this shouldn't make a lot of difference, but when we go to racing shouldn't it maybe be important, whats the power Cipo need to do a sprint wind head on, whats the power Musseeuw needs to attack on the Muur, Bettini needs on la Redoute. Seems to me power needed here is significantly higher than the average, does anoyone has an idea of the power developped here?<br /><br />Why I made this tought is that lots of competition cyclist do power training some in fitness centra, others on there stationary trainer and other uphil or wind head on. As they and there trainers seem in to this might there not be a serious reason?

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ric_stern/RST

Peak power attained during a maximal effort, such as a 5-sec ergometer test is greater than the peak power obtained during (e.g.) a road race sprint, but would be the same/non-significantly different as that, that occurs during a 200-m track sprint.<br /><br />During a road race/criterium/kermesse etc., fatigue occurs that tends to limit either the peak power obtained, or the average power that may occur over a 30-sec all-out effort. For instance, completing a Wingate test of anaerobic power after a road race, you'd produce lower figures than after a good warm up.<br /><br />The rate of fatigue and the change in efficiency occurs even after moderately low, constant load ergometry. For instance, in a study by Passfield and Doust (2000) MSSE, a significant decrease in 5-min average power and 30-sec Wingate power was noted when subjects performed a workload that elicited a 60% of VO2 peak for ~ 60-mins.<br /><br />Although, i don't know Cipollini's peak power output, we could safely assume it to be in the region of ~ 1600 - 1900 W, with true match sprinters (track) producing ~ 2000 - 2400 W.<br /><br />Although, as i've previously noted track sprint cycling will be helped by weight training, it's also, been shown (papers escapes me at present) that peak power can be increased with cycle training.<br /><br />Furthermore, pursuiant to the above, it's likely, that to sprint well at the end of a road race or criterium, etc., part of the skill is to have used as little energy as possible, and what energy that has to be used, should be at a small a % of maximum as possible. Accordingly, by increasing VO2 max and LT (which are trained through aerobic exercise -- e.g., cycling, and not weights) you can relatively spare your energy.<br /><br />When you (Maarten) suggest the power to attack on e.g., the Muur, or La Redoute, do you mean the highest peak power achieved or, the average power that the rider must produce over the Berg or the hill?<br /><br />The peak power in itself is of little importance in such an attack, as by definition it only occurs for a very short period of time. On the other hand the average power that must be produced over the entire length of the hill will be important.<br /><br />The average power (~ 500 W) will be produced via aerobic pathways, a) because the event continues and isn't a match sprint, and b) because the duration of the Muur is (what???) &amp;gt; 30-secs, and La Redoute must be several minutes. Even in an all-out 1-km TT (by a Kilo specialist) around 30% of the energy is produced by aerobic pathways (hence the need for even track specialists to complete a large volume of endurance work). Yes, the power is higher, but it's still produced aerobically in these races.<br /><br />Maarten, i'm not entirely sure i understand your last paragraph: I have no complaint with riders doing indoor training on a wind trainer / ergometer (so long as they use their bike or a position that replicates it). I use (and coach) riders both out on the road, on trainers, uphill and into a headwind.<br /><br />All that i'm saying is that weight training won't have a favourable outcome on endurance cycling performance. There *are* reasons to do weight training, which include, &amp;quot;looking better&amp;quot;, being physically stronger, possibly preventing decreases in bone mineral density, after some form of atrophy (e.g., broken bone) or track sprinting. I don't and have not disagreed on this.<br /><br />The bulk of the literature, clearly states that there is little or no crossover between different exercise modalities. Allied to this, is the fact the endurance cycle racing (and thus fitness/touring is even further down the line) requires very little strength. What strength that is required can be more than adequately trained by on the bike training, with e.g., sprint exercises (to increase peak power), and submaximal work (to increase endurance). <br /><br />Furthermore, because in even moderately trained people weight training doesn't effect a stimulus that causes aerobic adaptations, it therefore can't increase (e.g.) VO2 max, LT, etc. Primarily, VO2 max, and LT are the limiting factors in endurance sport, and this is where the majority of (endurance) cyclists training should be aimed at. Any sprint training that needs to take place is best achieved on the bike (and by the way can't be achieved on any indoor trainers that are commercially available -- at least not that i've ever seen :-)). By completing the sprint training on the bike, it's a) specific, and b) can often be incorporated into a skill session as tactics are very important (e.g., when to come off a wheel, etc.).<br /><br />Ric<br /><br /><br />[quote author=maarten link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=20#msg24049 date=1041973249]<br />There is also talk of power beiing a limiting factor in cycling. The comparisions made are between the average power needed. Well isn't a limit important in refference with the max power needed. for recreational riding this shouldn't make a lot of difference, but when we go to racing shouldn't it maybe be important, whats the power Cipo need to do a sprint wind head on, whats the power Musseeuw needs to attack on the Muur, Bettini needs on la Redoute. Seems to me power needed here is significantly higher than the average, does anoyone has an idea of the power developped here?<br /><br />Why I made this tought is that lots of competition cyclist do power training some in fitness centra, others on there stationary trainer and other uphil or wind head on. As they and there trainers seem in to this might there not be a serious reason?<br />[/quote]

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maarten

ricstern,<br /><br />The peak power in itself is of little importance in such an attack, as by definition it only occurs for a very short period of time. On the other hand the average power that must be produced over the entire length of the hill will be important.<br /><br />I meant the actual peak, as its often decisive like with Cipo its indeed just a few secs maybe but these secs desides who's over the line first or who's with lead group over the muur and who isn't as for instant Musseeuw attacks.<br /><br />Last paragraph was just an extra question no refference to what you said earlier just whanted to know what you tought about it.<br />

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ric_stern/RST

[quote author=maarten link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=20#msg24062 date=1042018880]<br /><br /><br />I meant the actual peak, as its often decisive like with Cipo its indeed just a few secs maybe but these secs desides who's over the line first or who's with lead group over the muur and who isn't as for instant Musseeuw attacks.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Maarten,<br /><br />There's two issues there<br />1) Cipollini (or anyone else) sprinting for the finish<br />2) Bettini/Musseeuw attacking on a berg<br /><br />In the case of 1 the peak is of extreme importance. Peak power is the major determining factor in raw sprinting ability. (although, as we all know tactical importance is also very important).<br /><br />In case 2 the peak is of little importance. The peak, by definition, would be the greatest power recorded, and would thus last up to 1-sec. Although, this will move the cyclist along. such a short time period over a much longer period of time (e.g., 30+ secs) won't have that much importance. Furthermore, as an attack isn't a sprint, the power will be much less, and the average power of the climb is the important aspect here. Because power has to drop rapidly from a peak to a sustainable effort, the sustainable effort is of importance. This is simply because the physiological response follows the velocity - time curve, i.e., the longer the duration, the lower the workload, or the shorter the duration the higher the workload.<br /><br />I don't believe peak power obtained during an attack to be of importance, my feeling is that peak power in an event by someone such as Bettini etc in Liege, would be no different, to an age and sex matched individual's peak power obtained during the local RR of e.g., 3rd cats.<br /><br />Ric

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ric_stern/RST

To everyone,<br /><br />Prior to joining this thread about weight training, i'd already written an article for cyclingnews.com about these issues. It's just gone up there and hopefully, you'll find it interesting or of use.<br /><br />I'm sure it'll turn up some more queries, so feel free to give me a shout!<br /><br />http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern<br /><br />Ric

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Rhodent

Hmm, ok, how about another poser ricster ;D<br /><br />Surely with increased muscle power the output produced to go at a certain speed is a lower percentage of one's possible max, and would thus lead to an increased time for fatigue?

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What do you mean there's no granny gear? How do you go up hills? Ahh, I see, you don't have hills.

ric_stern/RST

[quote author=Rhodent link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=40#msg24068 date=1042031289]<br />Hmm, ok, how about another poser ricster ;D<br /><br />Sure!<br /><br />Surely with increased muscle power the output produced to go at a certain speed is a lower percentage of one's possible max, and would thus lead to an increased time for fatigue? <br />[/quote]<br /><br />I'm not entirely sure i understand your query, but i'll do my best! I'm assuming that when you mention speed you actually mean some form of power output, as if you want to increase your speed - u just ride down a hill :-)!<br /><br />Maximum muscle power, allows you to produce very high peak power outputs, this will generally be in the range of ~800 to ~2000 W for most healthy, adult, males.<br /><br />Track sprinters, doing a 200-m match sprint will produce their peak power in race conditions. Road sprinters (i.e., endurance based riders) won't be able to replicate their peak power at the end of a race (due to fatigue).<br /><br />The power required to ride a road race for an average sized male (i.e., ~1.75 m, 72 kg) would be around 100 - 250 W. Obviously, this mean average is already a low percentage of peak power. Furthermore, because maximum muscle power power and peak power aren't generated through aerobic pathways, it follows that peak power has no bearing on aerobic power (else, riders such as Jason Queally, Chris Hoy, etc., would be excellent roadies).<br /><br />Not sure if that answers your query or if you meant something else...?<br />Ric

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Rhodent

OK, my last little bit of nonsense richard. I'm a statistician by training and I think (though I could have forgotten a bit here) that in your cyclingnews article you have made the often mistaken link between correlation and causal effect. I notice that you mention that a number of researchers find a correlation between V02 peak and 5 minute average power output, this does not imply dependancy neccesarily (though in thius case we can probably assume that that is an ok assumption) and certainly doesn't imply sole dependancy?<br /><br />Of course I could be barking up the wrong hole given my complete lack of knowledge of all matters physiological. I just got the idea from the article of yours that it was more a statement of the benefits of endurance training and not, as much, a rebuttal (is that spelt wrong?) of the benefits of specific strength training (other than perhaps the mitochondria point which I can claim to understand to no degree whatsoever!!). <br /><br />Two points that seem to be in favour of strength training would perhaps be the ability to put out more power at V02 max and the mention at the beginning of the article of exercise economy. Is not exercise economy improved when doing an exercise at a lower percentage of max effort? this being an idea followed in weight lifting where one is told to lower the weight to improve one's form? (or in cycling, the way one trains the efficiency of one's pedal stroke at low load?)<br /><br />As I mentioned before this could all be my complete lack of knowledge and is very much a case of logic applied to &amp;quot;old wive's tales&amp;quot;<br /><br />P.s. nice article though richard, have you finished your PHD yet?

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What do you mean there's no granny gear? How do you go up hills? Ahh, I see, you don't have hills.

Rhodent

Ha Ha, all my queries shot down in flames one after the other!!... Good fun trying to find a chink in a sports science doctor's armour with no knowledge of the stuff whatsoever.... But I'll keep trying (of course, as always, it won't affect my training or lifestyle which is mostly determined by good tasting food and drink and what makes my body feel right!! and involves trying to juggle the desire to cycle, sail, play squash, gym, rock climb and be brilliant at all the above with no training and a work, sleep and party habit I'm finding hard to break :-\)

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What do you mean there's no granny gear? How do you go up hills? Ahh, I see, you don't have hills.