Cleat spacing

Per ElmsäTer

Cat Dailey wrote:
> "Ken" <no@spam.no> wrote in message
> news:Xns94FF624E059D7x12@216.251.47.166...
>> "Cat Dailey" <catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote in news:acGdnYSmq-pfOlzdRVn-
>> uQ@comcast.com:
>>> Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
>>> one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
>>> feet). I am female and use
>>
>> How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk?
>> That's a good starting point. Hip sizes vary widely,
>> especially in women. People with very thin hips generally
>> walk with their feet very close together and would
>> probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as long as
>> your ankles don't bump the crank arms).
>
> Hmmm...that's a tough one to answer. If I think back to
> the last time I walked in sand or left wet footprints, my
> prints were rather close together. But what if I swing my
> feet in as I step down? I don't know if this translates to
> pedaling action or not, which is why I asked. Surely
> someone knows the answer???
>
> HOW DO YOU ALL SET UP YOUR CLEATS FOR LATERAL SPACING????
> <shouting
> over>
>
> Cat
Thank God you finally asked so we can understand you. You
know if you go back to my very first response, you'll see
that is exactly the question I answered.

SO THAT YOUR KNEES AND FEET ARE ALIGNED AS VERTICAL TO EACH
OTHER AS POSSIBLE. Besides I still think it's your saddle.

--
Perre
"Why do some people not listen until they get the answer they've been
waiting for"

Cat Dailey

"Per Elmsäter" <perDOTelmsater@telia.com> wrote in message
news:Olqwc.94721$dP1.305042@newsc.telia.net...
> Cat Dailey wrote:
> > "Ken" <no@spam.no> wrote in message
> > news:Xns94FF624E059D7x12@216.251.47.166...
> >> "Cat Dailey" <catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote in news:acGdnYSmq-pfOlzdRVn-
> >> uQ@comcast.com:
> >>> Does anyone have any info on how to tell how far apart
> >>> one's feet should be when clipped in (spacing between
> >>> feet). I am female and use
> >>
> >> How far apart (laterally) are your feet when you walk?
> >> That's a good starting point. Hip sizes vary widely,
> >> especially in women. People with very thin hips
> >> generally walk with their feet very close together and
> >> would probably benefit from a minimal cleat spacing (as
> >> long as your ankles don't bump the crank arms).
> >
> > Hmmm...that's a tough one to answer. If I think back to
> > the last time I walked in sand or left wet footprints,
> > my prints were rather close together. But what if I
> > swing my feet in as I step down? I don't know if this
> > translates to pedaling action or not, which is why I
> > asked. Surely someone knows the answer???
> >
> > HOW DO YOU ALL SET UP YOUR CLEATS FOR LATERAL
> > SPACING???? <shouting
> > over>
> >
> > Cat
> Thank God you finally asked so we can understand you. You
> know if you go back to my very first response, you'll see
> that is exactly the question I answered.
>
> SO THAT YOUR KNEES AND FEET ARE ALIGNED AS VERTICAL TO
> EACH OTHER AS POSSIBLE. Besides I still think it's
> your saddle.
>
> --
> Perre "Why do some people not listen until they get the
> answer they've been waiting for"
>
>

Oh, fer cryin' out loud and the love of pete
(smiling)...that's the most wishy washy load of whooey I've
ever heard. I can move my knees in or out relative to the
toptube, which changes whether or not my knees are aligned
as vertical as possible. That is a meaningless measurement.
No offense meant, really....

Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I want
because I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER!!!!

Dan Daniel

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:18:15 -0400, "Cat Dailey"
<catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I want
>because I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER!!!!
>

So how will have any idea what the correct answer
is???!!!!????? Why don't you just tell us what answer you
want and get done with it....

Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around.
Carry an allen wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!!
Eventually I found a place that made the knee pain go away.
Basically I listened to what my body was telling me, not
what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen unknown
situation.

Cat Dailey

"Dan Daniel" <ddandan.remove@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:06m4c05lfr6rgc4fphl3nvnng5s2dlor52@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:18:15 -0400, "Cat Dailey"
> <catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I
> >want because I DON'T
KNOW
> >THE ANSWER!!!!
> >
>
> So how will have any idea what the correct answer
> is???!!!!????? Why don't you just tell us what answer you
> want and get done with it....
>
> Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around.
> Carry an allen wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!!
> Eventually I found a place that made the knee pain go
> away. Basically I listened to what my body was telling me,
> not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen unknown
> situation.

Oh, boy. You need to turn on your humor meter. Just moving
my cleats around is an inefficient and potentially damaging
way of going about this. I asked if anyone had a "REASONED"
approach or formula for determining CORRECT cleat spacing.
Why is that so hard to understand? If I wanted to merely
goof around by trial and error, I could certainly do that.
HOWEVER, there are some formulas for determining correct
saddle height, cleat placement fore/aft, etc., which while
not perfect, are a good starting point. I've never come
across any similar information regarding cleat spacing, and
wondered if anyone here had.

On a similar note, I've always wondered with the new Look
pedals that allow you to move the platform in/out and also
change the angle, how do you know
(1) whether or not you need these two features and (2) how
do you figure out how much "correction" you need?

Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements
(NOT trial and error) that one might rely upon?

And I hope my reply did not come across as too strongly
worded for you. I really mean no offense, but would like
some solid info.

Cat

Dan Daniel

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 20:06:47 -0400, "Cat Dailey"
<catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Dan Daniel" <ddandan.remove@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:06m4c05lfr6rgc4fphl3nvnng5s2dlor52@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:18:15 -0400, "Cat Dailey"
>> <catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I
>> >want because I DON'T
>KNOW
>> >THE ANSWER!!!!
>> >
>>
>> So how will have any idea what the correct answer
>> is???!!!!????? Why don't you just tell us what answer you
>> want and get done with it....
>>
>> Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around.
>> Carry an allen wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!!
>> Eventually I found a place that made the knee pain go
>> away. Basically I listened to what my body was telling
>> me, not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen
>> unknown situation.
>
>
>Oh, boy. You need to turn on your humor meter.

Likewise, I'm sure!

> Just moving my cleats around is an inefficient and
> potentially damaging way of going about this. I asked if
> anyone had a "REASONED" approach or formula for
> determining CORRECT cleat spacing. Why is that so hard to
> understand? If I wanted to merely goof around by trial and
> error, I could certainly do that. HOWEVER, there are some
> formulas for determining correct saddle height, cleat
> placement fore/aft, etc., which while not perfect, are a
> good starting point. I've never come across any similar
> information regarding cleat spacing, and wondered if
> anyone here had.
>

I was looking for this kind of thing months ago. Looking
looking looking. I never found it. There are the general
rules on knee pain, which seems to come down to two things-
saddle height and move the cleat back. Beyond that, I could
find nothing substantial.

I think that there is a reason for this- the factors are too
variable. Even in the answers here, you can see that.

You may think I was being snide, for reasons I can
understand, but I was being realistic based on my
experience. I did not ruin my knees with experiments. When
a position was better, my knees told me within a few miles.
When a position was worse, my knees told me within a few
miles. For me, it was a slow hunt, and parts of it are
still ongoing as I deal with different bikes and setup and
use issues.

One thing that has made a big difference for me is moving my
seat forward. This goes against the basic setup that is
recommended, where having the seat back gives better power.
But going forward helped eliminate the pain at the
top/inside of my knee cap. If you think about the pressure
on the upper kneecap in relation to the hip's position fore
and aft, this makes sense to me. But this is another story,
another 'try this- it worked for me' thing that is leaving
you very frustrated, I can see.

>On a similar note, I've always wondered with the new Look
>pedals that allow you to move the platform in/out and also
>change the angle, how do you know
>(1) whether or not you need these two features and (2) how
> do you figure out how much "correction" you need?
>

Uh, when it doesn't hurt you've found the right spot?
Oops, you don't like answers like that.....

Look, I have been very worried about long term damage.
Worried that a position that felt ok was actually chewing up
my knee from the inside and that I would never recover from
the damage. But it hasn't turned out this way. Positions
that have felt better have not come back to haunt me.

>Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements
>(NOT trial and error) that one might rely upon?
>

You might ask in rec.bicycles.racing or rec.bicycles.tech
Maybe people in one of those groups will be better informed.
Or at least have more sophisticated knowledge of sports
physiology information and resources on the web or
elsewhere.

>And I hope my reply did not come across as too strongly
>worded for you. I really mean no offense, but would like
>some solid info.

So would I, but I never found any. The closest I came was
looking into knee problems, and the focus was on runners.
Maybe there is a hidden mother lode of cleat position info
and studies out there, but no one here would ever let me in
on the secret

I would suggest r.b.racing or some other forum for racers to
find out if such information and studies exist.

Curt

> Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements
> (NOT trial and error) that one might rely upon?

> Cat

No there is not. I don't know if you understand this whole
process. You use a formula to get in the ballpark and then
ride to see how the bicycle feels. For example, if you knees
hurt the first thing to do is see if the saddle height is
high enough. I don't care how many measurements you took.
They mean nothing now. If it isn't the saddle (I think it
is), then take a look at pedal position. You have a pedal
that has free float, so you have an advantage and this also
makes me think it is the saddle height due to that fact.

If your knees still hurt, maybe you need to go to a really
good bicycle shop and have them take a look. Your knees are
worth the money you may have to spend. Maybe it is in your
form. It is really hard to tell if you are unwilling to
check the saddle at all, because you are so convinced of
some number. Do you know Lance A has changed his saddle
height around and is continually dialing in his bicycles. He
has access to all sorts of formulas and knows he can't use
them to get it dialed in properly.

I know, I know, you don't want to hear this, but I just
can't help myself.

Enjoy, Curt

Bernie

Dan Daniel wrote:

>>>
>>>Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around.
>>>Carry an allen wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!!
>>>Eventually I found a place that made the knee pain go
>>>away. Basically I listened to what my body was telling
>>>me, not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen
>>>unknown situation.
>>>
Fit is so personal. What you did is basically what I have
done with two bikes. One a hybrid, the other a drop bar
touring. The fit job at the bike shop only gets you close to
perfect in my experience, then you do the little tweaks to
dial the fit in.

>
>You may think I was being snide, for reasons I can
>understand, but I was being realistic based on my
>experience. I did not ruin my knees with experiments. When
>a position was better, my knees told me within a few miles.
>When a position was worse, my knees told me within a few
>miles. For me, it was a slow hunt, and parts of it are
>still ongoing as I deal with different bikes and setup and
>use issues.
>
exactly

>ne thing that has made a big difference for me is moving my
>seat forward. This goes against the basic setup that is
>recommended, where having the seat back gives better power.
>But going forward helped eliminate the pain at the
>top/inside of my knee cap. If you think about the pressure
>on the upper kneecap in relation to the hip's position fore
>and aft, this makes sense to me. But this is another story,
>another 'try this- it worked for me' thing that is leaving
>you very frustrated, I can see.
>
Getting very well fitted is frustrating - at least it was
for me. It's worth the time though. I agree with carrying
your allen key set and doing the adjustments one at a
time, so you can keep track of the changes you make. Your
body tells you when you are getting close to what is
right for you.

>
>Uh, when it doesn't hurt you've found the right spot?
>Oops, you don't like answers like that.....
>
>Look, I have been very worried about long term damage.
>Worried that a position that felt ok was actually chewing
>up my knee from the inside and that I would never recover
>from the damage. But it hasn't turned out this way.
>Positions that have felt better have not come back to
>haunt me.
>
If you are just trying new postiions, you will soon know if
you are close to your target or not. It won't be something
extrteme that will damage you. I mean, you won't be riding
in the wrong position for months or days, just as part of a
ride. My answer is no better than Dan's, so sorry if it is
redundant. Keep riding, remain aware of yourself and how you
feel. If you have a decent bike you will end up in the
"sweet spot" as far as fit goes, and will ride in comfort
for many a mile. Bernie

Cat Dailey

"curt" <nospam@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:zZuwc.8301$321.1877@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
>
> > Surely there are biomechanical/physiological
> > measurements (NOT trial and error) that one might
> > rely upon?
>
> > Cat
>
> No there is not. I don't know if you understand this
> whole process. You use a formula to get in the ballpark
> and then ride to see how the bicycle feels. For example,
> if you knees hurt the first thing to do is see if the
> saddle height is high enough. I don't care how many
> measurements you
took.
> They mean nothing now. If it isn't the saddle (I think it
> is), then take
a
> look at pedal position. You have a pedal that has free
> float, so you have an advantage and this also makes me
> think it is the saddle height due to that fact.

I understand quite well, actually, and my position feels
great...that's the trouble. I spent a lot of time this
spring dialing in my position, and I really feel good on the
bike, except for this one niggling little pain that I get. I
raised my saddle a bit and also moved it forward a bit this
spring. If you were to look at my fit on the bike, I know
you wouldn't advise me to raise my saddle any further
because I would definitely start rocking.

The pain in a peculiar spot, also. I don't know if you read
my first post, but the pain is at the top of my kneecap on
the inside edge, just around where the VMO inserts. I have
also tried moving my cleats slightly inboard and slightly
outboard (trial and error), but nothing changes the feeling.
That might be due to my high mileage, high intensity style
of riding. It's hard to go with trial and error when you are
riding 250-350 miles a week at 18mph average. There just
isn't time on a ride to stop and fiddle with cleats.

>
> If your knees still hurt, maybe you need to go to a really
> good bicycle
shop
> and have them take a look. Your knees are worth the money
> you may have to spend. Maybe it is in your form. It is
> really hard to tell if you are unwilling to check the
> saddle at all, because you are so convinced of some
> number. Do you know Lance A has changed his saddle height
> around and is continually dialing in his bicycles. He has
> access to all sorts of
formulas
> and knows he can't use them to get it dialed in properly.
>
> I know, I know, you don't want to hear this, but I just
> can't help myself.
>

Yeah, I know the routine. My husband actually gives me a lot
of grief about messing with my saddle so much, but as your
fitness/flexibility changes, so does your bike fit. I might
have to find somewhere to take it to see what the "pros"
think. A Carmichael training center just opened near me and
maybe they'd have some sort of pedal action measurement that
would indicate how far apart your feet should be. One thing
that always gets me, though, is that most of the information
out there pertains to men, not women.

Thanks, Cat

Terry Morse

Cat Dailey wrote:

> The pain in a peculiar spot, also. I don't know if you
> read my first post, but the pain is at the top of my
> kneecap on the inside edge, just around where the VMO
> inserts.

Hmm. That almost sounds like a kneecap tracking error. I've
had that before, and it was caused by an inbalance of
strength in the quad muscles. Strengthening the VM (vastus
medialis, the muscle on the inside of the leg) solved the
problem for me. A sports doctor would be able to tell
immediately if you have a strength imbalance.

> That might be due to my high mileage, high intensity style
> of riding. It's hard to go with trial and error when you
> are riding 250-350 miles a week at 18mph average.

Well, it certainly could be caused by overuse. If you're
averaging 18mph, you're doing tempo rides. Splitting up the
tempo rides with zone 2 days may be helpful. And it's a good
training idea, any way.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Badger_south

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:50:51 -0400, "Cat Dailey" <catdailey@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>> May I suggest the OP get a friend with a camera and
>> tripod to take pics of her spacing from the front, side
>> and especially the rear (and maybe from above,
>> i.e. the cyclists POV, and another further forward
>> aligning and framing the feet and knee positions
>> relative to the crank, in the exposure.
>>
>> Cat may be able to spot things related to alignment that
>> will allow some slight adaptive experimentation.
>>
>> I would think the aim would be to take into account the
>> normal seated 'hang' of the legs, and use of minimal
>> orthotics or adjustments to allow the most trim, plum and
>> level "neutral" position. It's all about wear on the
>> joints and the alignment of the spine.
>>
>>I've even been thinking about making a couple visits to a
>> good chiro., see
>> if there's anything that I can work on aligning better
>> with exercises, etc.
>>
>> -B
>
>That's not a bad suggestion (pics, I mean), but I don't
>know how to interpret the information.
>
>Cat

Well, if you get the pics, you will most likely see
something that will help you, even if it's not strictly
scientific. Perhaps you'll just see a 'non-symmetry' that
you can correct.

Just as having yourself filmed to help you critique an
athletic performance, video and pics can really clue you in
to things you're doing on the bike that are not obvious.

Snapshots are good, but IMO, video is better. I've corrected
a lot of minor and some major faults in my martial arts
performance, bag work, sparring, etc. I'm pretty sure if you
got your biking on video, you would instinctively see what
is good and what may be ripe for improvement.

At any rate good luck. There can't be a lot for you to
improve with the kind of performances you're relating,
though, eh? ;-)

-B

-Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

Badger_south

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 20:06:47 -0400, "Cat Dailey" <catdailey@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"Dan Daniel" <ddandan.remove@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:06m4c05lfr6rgc4fphl3nvnng5s2dlor52@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:18:15 -0400, "Cat Dailey"
>> <catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I
>> >want because I DON'T
>KNOW
>> >THE ANSWER!!!!
>> >
>>
>> So how will have any idea what the correct answer
>> is???!!!!????? Why don't you just tell us what answer you
>> want and get done with it....
>>
>> Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around.
>> Carry an allen wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!!
>> Eventually I found a place that made the knee pain go
>> away. Basically I listened to what my body was telling
>> me, not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen
>> unknown situation.
>
>
>Oh, boy. You need to turn on your humor meter. Just moving
>my cleats around is an inefficient and potentially damaging
>way of going about this. I asked if anyone had a "REASONED"
>approach or formula for determining CORRECT cleat spacing.
>Why is that so hard to understand? If I wanted to merely
>goof around by trial and error, I could certainly do that.
>HOWEVER, there are some formulas for determining correct
>saddle height, cleat placement fore/aft, etc., which while
>not perfect, are a good starting point. I've never come
>across any similar information regarding cleat spacing, and
>wondered if anyone here had.
>
>On a similar note, I've always wondered with the new Look
>pedals that allow you to move the platform in/out and also
>change the angle, how do you know
>(1) whether or not you need these two features and (2) how
> do you figure out how much "correction" you need?
>
>Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements
>(NOT trial and error) that one might rely upon?
>
>And I hope my reply did not come across as too strongly
>worded for you. I really mean no offense, but would like
>some solid info.
>
>Cat

Why not try and contact someone at a local University, or a
teaching hospital with an active sports medicine program?

With the kind of performances you're putting in, I think
there might be a chance that a local coach would be
intrigued enough to let you glom onto their cycling
biomechanics program, b/c you could probably teach them a
thing or two in return.

Check out the local resources and make some phone calls.
Find out if anyone is using equipment to check performance.
I believe more and more runners are getting checked on
equipment.

Just a thought.

-B -Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"

Badger_south

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 17:32:03 -0700, Dan Daniel <ddandan.remove@pacbell.net>
wrote:
>
>I was looking for this kind of thing months ago. Looking
>looking looking. I never found it. There are the general
>rules on knee pain, which seems to come down to two things-
>saddle height and move the cleat back. Beyond that, I could
>find nothing substantial.
>
>I think that there is a reason for this- the factors are
>too variable. Even in the answers here, you can see that.
>
>You may think I was being snide, for reasons I can
>understand, but I was being realistic based on my
>experience. I did not ruin my knees with experiments. When
>a position was better, my knees told me within a few miles.
>When a position was worse, my knees told me within a few
>miles. For me, it was a slow hunt, and parts of it are
>still ongoing as I deal with different bikes and setup and
>use issues.
>
>One thing that has made a big difference for me is moving
>my seat forward. This goes against the basic setup that is
>recommended, where having the seat back gives better power.
>But going forward helped eliminate the pain at the
>top/inside of my knee cap. If you think about the pressure
>on the upper kneecap in relation to the hip's position fore
>and aft, this makes sense to me. But this is another story,
>another 'try this- it worked for me' thing that is leaving
>you very frustrated, I can see.
>
>>On a similar note, I've always wondered with the new Look
>>pedals that allow you to move the platform in/out and also
>>change the angle, how do you know
>>(1) whether or not you need these two features and (2) how
>> do you figure out how much "correction" you need?
>>
>
>Uh, when it doesn't hurt you've found the right spot?
>Oops, you don't like answers like that.....
>
>Look, I have been very worried about long term damage.
>Worried that a position that felt ok was actually chewing
>up my knee from the inside and that I would never recover
>from the damage. But it hasn't turned out this way.
>Positions that have felt better have not come back to
>haunt me.
>
>>Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements
>>(NOT trial and error) that one might rely upon?
>>
>
>You might ask in rec.bicycles.racing or rec.bicycles.tech
>Maybe people in one of those groups will be better
>informed. Or at least have more sophisticated knowledge of
>sports physiology information and resources on the web or
>elsewhere.
>
>>And I hope my reply did not come across as too strongly
>>worded for you. I really mean no offense, but would like
>>some solid info.
>
>So would I, but I never found any. The closest I came was
>looking into knee problems, and the focus was on runners.
>Maybe there is a hidden mother lode of cleat position info
>and studies out there, but no one here would ever let me in
>on the secret
>
>I would suggest r.b.racing or some other forum for racers
>to find out if such information and studies exist.

This is a really great answer, Dan. In fact the whole thread
is a gem, IMO.

The thing is, ISTM, that the biomechanics and variables for
getting a good fit on the bike could be -very- complex, such
that moving the seat, or cleats or bar 3mm one way or
another could have a big effect on performance or on pain in
the knee, etc.

It's just not a straightforward thing, b/c you're dealing
with multi-joint and multi-facetted angles and positions,
such that if you tweak one thing, you might get another
thing out of adjustment. Heh, much like the bike itself.

Just raising the seat would seem to be a simple thing, but
when we did this, my brother ended up raising the
handlebars, which changed the front brakes, and so on...

Anyway, thanks for the info - I think it does take
experimentation to get those last few tweaks right, and
cessation of pain has got to be on the right track.

It's tough, b/c biking can be prone to overuse injury, even
though it's not load-bearing. It's a constant process of
change and adaptation.

-Badger -Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path
Rider"

Cat Dailey

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote in message
news:9ha6c0lj5a3utm5nju1eh7coag48mmpbvc@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:50:51 -0400, "Cat Dailey"
> <catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> May I suggest the OP get a friend with a camera and
> >> tripod to take pics
of
> >> her spacing from the front, side and especially the
> >> rear (and maybe
from above,
> >> i.e. the cyclists POV, and another further forward
> >> aligning and framing
the feet
> >> and knee positions relative to the crank, in the
> >> exposure.
> >>
> >> Cat may be able to spot things related to alignment
> >> that will allow
some slight
> >> adaptive experimentation.
> >>
> >> I would think the aim would be to take into account the
> >> normal seated 'hang' of the legs, and use of minimal
> >> orthotics or adjustments to
allow the
> >> most trim, plum and level "neutral" position. It's all
> >> about wear on
the
> >>joints and the alignment of the spine.
> >>
> >> I've even been thinking about making a couple visits to
> >> a good chiro.,
see
> >>if there's anything that I can work on aligning better
> >>with exercises,
etc.
> >>
> >> -B
> >
> >That's not a bad suggestion (pics, I mean), but I don't
> >know how to interpret the information.
> >
> >Cat
>
> Well, if you get the pics, you will most likely see
> something that will help you, even if it's not strictly
> scientific. Perhaps you'll just see a 'non-symmetry' that
> you can correct.
>
> Just as having yourself filmed to help you critique an
> athletic performance, video and pics can really clue you
> in to things you're doing on the bike that are not
> obvious.
>
> Snapshots are good, but IMO, video is better. I've
> corrected a lot of
minor
> and some major faults in my martial arts performance, bag
> work, sparring, etc. I'm pretty sure if you got your
> biking on video, you would instinctively see what is good
> and what may be ripe for improvement.
>
> At any rate good luck. There can't be a lot for you to
> improve with the kind of performances you're relating,
> though, eh? ;-)

Are you kidding? The pros were in Philly all week for the
USPro series, and they make everything I do look amateurish
by comparison;< They are so amazing, the men and the women.
They just have a totally different gear than the rest of us
mere mortals <sigh>.

Cat

Cat Dailey

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote in message
news:0ua6c09tlrmoj39scvn3tvsjo3q1rn4sim@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 20:06:47 -0400, "Cat Dailey"
> <catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dan Daniel" <ddandan.remove@pacbell.net> wrote in
> >message
> >news:06m4c05lfr6rgc4fphl3nvnng5s2dlor52@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:18:15 -0400, "Cat Dailey"
> >> <catdailey@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >Cat who is not not listening until I get the answer I
> >> >want because I DON'T
> >KNOW
> >> >THE ANSWER!!!!
> >> >
> >>
> >> So how will have any idea what the correct answer
> >> is???!!!!????? Why don't you just tell us what answer
> >> you want and get done with it....
> >>
> >> Look, what I have done is simply move my cleats around.
> >> Carry an allen wrench and KEEP TRYING NEW POSITIONS!!!
> >> Eventually I found a place that made the knee pain go
> >> away. Basically I listened to what my body was telling
> >> me, not what some newsgroup had to say about an unseen
> >> unknown situation.
> >
> >
> >Oh, boy. You need to turn on your humor meter. Just
> >moving my cleats around is an inefficient and potentially
> >damaging way of going about
this.
> >I asked if anyone had a "REASONED" approach or formula
> >for determining CORRECT cleat spacing. Why is that so
> >hard to understand? If I wanted
to
> >merely goof around by trial and error, I could certainly
> >do that.
HOWEVER,
> >there are some formulas for determining correct saddle
> >height, cleat placement fore/aft, etc., which while not
> >perfect, are a good starting point. I've never come
> >across any similar information regarding cleat spacing,
> >and wondered if anyone here had.
> >
> >On a similar note, I've always wondered with the new Look
> >pedals that
allow
> >you to move the platform in/out and also change the
> >angle, how do you
know
> >(1) whether or not you need these two features and (2)
> > how do you figure
out
> >how much "correction" you need?
> >
> >Surely there are biomechanical/physiological measurements
> >(NOT trial and error) that one might rely upon?
> >
> >And I hope my reply did not come across as too strongly
> >worded for you.
I
> >really mean no offense, but would like some solid info.
> >
> >Cat
>
> Why not try and contact someone at a local University, or
> a teaching hospital with an active sports medicine
> program?
>
> With the kind of performances you're putting in, I think
> there might be a chance that a local coach would be
> intrigued enough to let you glom onto their cycling
> biomechanics program, b/c you could probably teach them a
> thing or two in return.
>
> Check out the local resources and make some phone calls.
> Find out if
anyone
> is using equipment to check performance. I believe more
> and more runners are getting checked on equipment.
>
> Just a thought.

That's a great thought and one I will follow up on. The
last time I tried to glom my way into a physical
performance study at Penn, I was told they only wanted male
subjects <sigh>.

Cat who thinks it must be easier to be male ;>

>
> -B -Badger "World's most dangerous City Bike Path Rider"