LBS reasonable markup

Bernie

Todd Kuzma wrote:

>
> So, most shops try to combine a fair price with
> convenience, expertise, service, etc. In this regard, the
> primary market for most bike shops is NOT the same market
> targeted by Performance and the like.
>
> Performance actually sells to a very small portion of the
> overall bicycle market. I'd bet that fewer than 5% of
> customers are even aware that Performance exists. Mail
> order operations are best at serving experienced customers
> who already know what they want and simply are looking for
> the best price. That is NOT the typical LBS customer.

Too right.

>
> So, many enthusiasts find their LBS lacking. That might be
> because that particular LBS is not pursuing the enthusiast
> market for the bulk of their business.
>
> Speaking for myself, selling a Heron loaded touring bike
> is a lot of fun and can be a fairly large individual sale,
> but $350 comfort bikes keep the lights on. Of course, I am
> in a rural area without any other full-line bicycle shops
> for 45 minutes in any direction. So, we need to be all
> things to all people.
>
> Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
> LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776 http://www.heronbicycles.com
> http://www.tullios.com
>
My local bike shop always charges more than the big stores.
However - they are always ready to discuss the pros and cons
of various styles and brands. They ask for feedback on items
like tires and brake pads, so they can stock what keeps
customers happy. They know their regular customers (by
name!) and will install small items at no charge. Things
like pedals, computers, a new chain... That's a treat for
the mechanically inept, like meself. Service and help is
competetive. Try to get it at a big box store.

I find the personal service extremely helpful and have never
felt like they were playing me in order to get a few more
bucks in the till. They get first shot at any bike or
accessory that I want to buy. Best regards, Bernie

Mike Jacoubowsk

> You don't have to shop around for the lowest price on
> earth, but you'd be nuts to treat your LBS like it's a
> charity and just give them extra money out of your pocket.

There needs to be some reasonable combination of price &
service for the LBS to exist. That combination will be
different for different people; no single LBS (or mail-order
outfit) is going to have all the answers for everyone.

As I previously pointed out, the shop that special ordered
the LOOK cleats for $20+ probably wasn't the right place to
be buying road bike parts from. That's not a crime, it's
just a fact. There may be somebody else in the area that
would be a better choice, just as the original shop might
have been the best place had the customer needed something
for a high-end mtn bike or perhaps BMX, who knows?

If I were choosing a shop to buy something from, the first
red flag would be that a relatively-common road bike part
(LOOK cleats) wasn't a normally-stocked item and had to be
special-ordered. Pricing would be a secondary thing.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Zoot Katz

Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:38:19 -0700, <40CCAD2B.9080806@mouse-potato.com>,
Bernie <bmcilvan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>I find the personal service extremely helpful and have
>never felt like they were playing me in order to get a few
>more bucks in the till. They get first shot at any bike or
>accessory that I want to buy.

Bike Dr.? First time I went there they sent me to another
shop that had exactly what I was looking for. I of course
went back there later to buy their stuff.

Good people. Good service. Good selection of commuter type
gear. And now they're opening a third store on Kingsway in
Burnaby. No wonder.
--
zk

Bernie

Zoot Katz wrote:

>Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:38:19 -0700, <40CCAD2B.9080806@mouse-
>potato.com>, Bernie <bmcilvan@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
>>I find the personal service extremely helpful and have
>>never felt like they were playing me in order to get a few
>>more bucks in the till. They get first shot at any bike or
>>accessory that I want to buy.
>>
>
>Bike Dr.? First time I went there they sent me to another
>shop that had exactly what I was looking for. I of course
>went back there later to buy their stuff.
>
>Good people. Good service. Good selection of commuter type
>gear. And now they're opening a third store on Kingsway in
>Burnaby. No wonder.
>
Well, no it was not Bike Dr. No slur on them tho! They are
first class, and extremely helpful. Very good inventories
too. I've spent money there with no regrets. In fact I'd
give them 100% confidence. Get it, they are ok? Alright. I
dont' like to namedrop on this group, but since you
started... I live near Edmonds Cycle on Edmonds St Burnaby.
A real old fashioned Momma Poppa operation, with couple of
hard working wrenches in the back workshop. Nice people,
good service. I just wish they carried more lines. They are
a Norco dealer, also carry a selection of near new decent
bikes at good prices. Shops like this are always struggling
to survive. Long may they prosper, I say. Best, Bernie

Pbwalther

>We sell "real" Look cleats for about $13 if I recall
>correctly (not at the shop right now so don't have the
>exact amount handy).

Gee Mike, that is very similar to the price they charge at
the bike shops around here. I have found that the LBS prices
are very close to Performance on most common items like
tires, chains, cleats and so on. I get some things from
Performance because of the ease of purchase and availability
but given the shipping costs, I generally do not save much
money ordering mail order.

On quite a few things, I buy them from the LBS because if
something goes wrong with my bike mechanically that I can
not cope with, they will. Performance won't do that.

Gs

Seems most people here are in favour of supporting the
local shop - some regardless of price, and others within
reason. Even though my post wasn't well liked, I assure the
group that I too shop at the LBS more often than mail
order. I've never made a major purchase, such as a bike,
through mail order.

The whole topic got me wondering... how many on this group
who are gung-ho on supporting the LBS don't support the
local guy in other areas of their consumerism? I'll bet some
of you here are on a Dell computer - bought through
mailorder. Why not go to the local computer guy? You
would've gotten much better service. Some of you probably
buy your books and CDs on Amazon. Why not spend full-price
at the mom and pop book store down on Main Street? Ever send
flowers or candy through 1-800-Flowers.com, or FTD.com? Why
not go personally to the local florist or candy shop? Even
when you're not using mail order, sometimes your shopping
patterns have just as much impact. Ever notice how the local
hardware shop is now almost extinct? Yet we all willingly go
to Home Depot because we know that their prices will always
be the best and we can get everything we need in one
shopping trip. How many of us go to Starbucks instead of the
small, privately owned coffee shop? The list goes on and on.

"Keith Vetter" <keithv@clover.net> wrote in message
news:b811ab79.0406110833.7d35fc62@posting.google.com...
> I'm all in favor of supporting local bike shops (LBS) but
> what do people consider a fair markup?
>
> Last year I needed some Look-type bike cleats. I went to a
> bike shop, and, while they didn't have any in stock, the
> owner just happened to be on the phone to the supplier and
> he added it to their order. When they came in, the store
> wanted $27 for them--that seemed expensive but not knowing
> better and since they were ordered explicitly for me, I
> bought them.
>
> Later I saw that Performance was selling Look cleats (not
> clones) for half that price.
>
> Last month, I needed another pair and I went to a
> different bike shop. Again they didn't have them in stock,
> but they looked it up in the catalog. The catalog price
> was $13 and they said they could sell it to me for $21.
> This time I declined.
>
> So what to people consider a reasonable markup? My first
> example I feel is clearly too high. The second one seems
> to high but by how much?
>
> Keith

Cathy Kearns

"GS" <xLuckyStrike21@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:UTjzc.12$0z6.7@fed1read07...
> Seems most people here are in favour of supporting the
> local shop - some regardless of price, and others within
> reason. Even though my post wasn't well liked, I assure
> the group that I too shop at the LBS more often than mail
> order. I've never made a major purchase, such as a bike,
> through mail order.
>
> The whole topic got me wondering... how many on this group
> who are gung-ho on supporting the LBS don't support the
> local guy in other areas of their consumerism? I'll bet
> some of you here are on a Dell computer - bought through
mailorder.
> Why not go to the local computer guy? You would've gotten
> much better service. Some of you probably buy your books
> and CDs on Amazon. Why not spend full-price at the mom and
> pop book store down on Main Street? Ever send flowers or
> candy through 1-800-Flowers.com, or FTD.com? Why not
go
> personally to the local florist or candy shop? Even when
> you're not using mail order, sometimes your shopping
> patterns
have
> just as much impact. Ever notice how the local hardware
> shop is now almost extinct? Yet we all willingly go to
> Home Depot because we know that their prices will always
> be the best and we can get everything we need in one
> shopping trip. How many of us go to Starbucks instead of
> the small, privately owned
coffee
> shop? The list goes on and on.

Okay, I have no idea where this computer came from, but I
can tell you I have never found anyone here in the silicon
valley that can take care of my computer as well as my
husband. But I do hit the downtown bookstores first before
Amazon, just because then I can bring them home. I like the
little downtown area near my house and buy from the local
stores any thing I can. I hate going to Home Depot, and much
prefer the local hardware store owned by one of the parents
at my kids school because they can help you find stuff, even
if they have less inventory. So actually, my order of
shopping preference is 1) any store I can walk or bike to 2)
internet shopping 3) Nice malls 4) big box stores.

That said, for really good service I've been known to drive
to little local stores. But the service and products have to
be really good. And they need to have plentiful, easy
parking. I hate searching for parking, that's up there on
one of the reasons I ride a bike.

David Kerber

In article <UTjzc.12$0z6.7@fed1read07>,
xLuckyStrike21@Yahoo.com says...
> Seems most people here are in favour of supporting the
> local shop - some regardless of price, and others within
> reason. Even though my post wasn't well liked, I assure
> the group that I too shop at the LBS more often than mail
> order. I've never made a major purchase, such as a bike,
> through mail order.
>
> The whole topic got me wondering... how many on this group
> who are gung-ho on supporting the LBS don't support the
> local guy in other areas of their consumerism?

IMO, the reason for supporting your LBS is so that they
will be there later on when you need them to answer
questions, touch up your wheel, or figure out what that
strange noise is.

> I'll bet some of you here are on a Dell computer - bought
> through mailorder. Why not go to the local computer guy?
> You would've gotten much better service.

Buying a computer doesn't need the level of personal
attention that buying a bike does. We all know that the most
important part of buying a bike (after deciding what general
type you want) is to get the correct fit. Sizing and
adjusting a bike needs personal interaction. Getting a
computer with the specs you want does not (usually).

> Some of you probably buy your books and CDs on Amazon. Why
> not spend full-price at the mom and pop book store down on
> Main Street?

Actually, I go to the Barnes and Noble down on West Main St.

> Ever send flowers or candy through 1-800-Flowers.com, or
> FTD.com? Why not go personally to the local florist or
> candy shop? Even when you're not using mail order,
> sometimes your shopping patterns have just as much impact.
> Ever notice how the local hardware shop is now almost
> extinct? Yet we all willingly go to Home Depot because we
> know that their prices will always be the best and we can
> get everything we need in one shopping trip. How many of
> us go to Starbucks instead of the small, privately owned
> coffee shop? The list goes on and on.

The Starbucks is still a local shop, hiring people from the
local area. The same applies to the Home Depot.

....

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

Kantspel

tcmedara wrote:
> kantspel <prefer@nomail.com> wrote:
>
>>A sucessful shop owner once told me "if no one complains
>>about the price then you're not charging enough". As a
>>customer you don't want to hear that (I was a little
>>stunned when I heard it), but the guy ran a great shop.
>
>
> That's a great way to look at it! And if enough customers
> don't like it, they will seek alternatives. The shop will
> then lower prices, find ways to cut costs, or go out of
> business. That's the system! I'm new to this group, but
> recently kicked off a flame-a-thon in alt.mountain-bike
> for posting letter to an LBS where I complained about a
> mickey mouse charge and crappy customer service. You'd
> think I'd insulted the Pope while visiting Rome!
>
> Ironically, I support both sides on this one. Shops should
> charge as much as they think they can get away with, and
> customers shouldn't let 'em get away with it! That's why
> competition -- in bike parts, airlines, or breakfast
> cereal -- is good. If forces innovation and gives buyers
> options.
>
> Tom
>
>
you got flamed because in your original post you made it
look like you assumed you should get something for nothing.

Reid Priedhorsk

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:37:43 -0400, David Kerber wrote:

> The Starbucks is still a local shop, hiring people from
> the local area. The same applies to the Home Depot.

But the profits depart for the pockets of distant
shareholders and extravagantly paid senior management. If
you patronize a local shop, more money stays in your
community and improves the health of the local economy.

Reid

David Kerber

In article <pan.2004.06.14.19.55.10.277485@reidster.net>,
reid@reidster.net says...
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:37:43 -0400, David Kerber wrote:
>
> > The Starbucks is still a local shop, hiring people from
> > the local area. The same applies to the Home Depot.
>
> But the profits depart for the pockets of distant
> shareholders and extravagantly paid senior management. If
> you patronize a local shop, more money stays in your
> community and improves the health of the local economy.

That is true to some extent, but many locals are also likely
to be shareholders.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

Dick Durbin

Todd Kuzma <tullio@TheRamp.net> wrote in message news:<40CA2CF3.9060905@TheRamp.net>...
> Still, for small parts, a keystone margin (50%) is pretty
> common in retail.

I spent 20 years working in retail and understand that
retailers like to call keystone markup 50%. If you pay $5
for an item and sell it for $10, I think most people will
call that 100% markup.

My big concern is how much markup the wholesaler adds. I am
not entirely sure that wholesalers are all that necessary
any more. They add nothing to the value of the product.

Dick Durbin

Daniel Crispin

Well I am not a big fan of only buying.

I am a member of Columbia House for both CDs and DVDs and I
have trouble completing my membership dues because I can
always find locally for about half the price. When you take
shipping and handling into account the deals are usually
not as sweet.

I purchased my bike from a sports chain and I regret it. I
am sure I would have had a lot less trouble if I purchased
it from a LBS... of course it would have cost more but now I
have to pay for the problems I am having so in the end it
would have costed about the same but without the headaches.

And being a regular customer means that sometimes you go in
for minor adjustments and it's done free of charge. So you
save a little on that. The place I go for repairs know me
because once a week I am there, on saturday for some minor
purchases and some adjustments. Funny too, they are now
saying "Ah there you are, we were wondering if you would
come by today" Hehheeh

"GS" <xLuckyStrike21@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:UTjzc.12$0z6.7@fed1read07...
> Seems most people here are in favour of supporting the
> local shop - some regardless of price, and others within
> reason. Even though my post wasn't well liked, I assure
> the group that I too shop at the LBS more often than mail
> order. I've never made a major purchase, such as a bike,
> through mail order.
>
> The whole topic got me wondering... how many on this group
> who are gung-ho on supporting the LBS don't support the
> local guy in other areas of their consumerism? I'll bet
> some of you here are on a Dell computer - bought through
mailorder.
> Why not go to the local computer guy? You would've gotten
> much better service. Some of you probably buy your books
> and CDs on Amazon. Why not spend full-price at the mom and
> pop book store down on Main Street? Ever send flowers or
> candy through 1-800-Flowers.com, or FTD.com? Why not
go
> personally to the local florist or candy shop? Even when
> you're not using mail order, sometimes your shopping
> patterns
have
> just as much impact. Ever notice how the local hardware
> shop is now almost extinct? Yet we all willingly go to
> Home Depot because we know that their prices will always
> be the best and we can get everything we need in one
> shopping trip. How many of us go to Starbucks instead of
> the small, privately owned
coffee
> shop? The list goes on and on.
>
>
> "Keith Vetter" <keithv@clover.net> wrote in message
> news:b811ab79.0406110833.7d35fc62@posting.google.com...
> > I'm all in favor of supporting local bike shops (LBS)
> > but what do people consider a fair markup?
> >
> > Last year I needed some Look-type bike cleats. I went to
> > a bike shop, and, while they didn't have any in stock,
> > the owner just happened to be on the phone to the
> > supplier and he added it to their order. When they came
> > in, the store wanted $27 for them--that seemed expensive
> > but not knowing better and since they were ordered
> > explicitly for me, I bought them.
> >
> > Later I saw that Performance was selling Look cleats
> > (not clones) for half that price.
> >
> > Last month, I needed another pair and I went to a
> > different bike shop. Again they didn't have them in
> > stock, but they looked it up in the catalog. The catalog
> > price was $13 and they said they could sell it to me for
> > $21. This time I declined.
> >
> > So what to people consider a reasonable markup? My first
> > example I feel is clearly too high. The second one seems
> > to high but by how much?
> >
> > Keith

Bob

On 14 Jun 2004 14:01:26 -0700, ddurbin@tfn.net (Dick Durbin) wrote:

>
>My big concern is how much markup the wholesaler adds. I am
>not entirely sure that wholesalers are all that necessary
>any more. They add nothing to the value of the product.

Wholesalers exist to serve the manufacturer. Manufacturers
do not want to deal with a slew customers - they want to
sell to a wholesaler or volume retailer who will pick up the
detail load.