Planning a very long ride - 8 hrs

Jacques Moser

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:48:12 +0000, Badger_South wrote:

>
> People who do touring and stuff ride about 8 hours a day
> for like 2 weeks. 'Course they're sightseeing so it's more
> fun. It would probably require a "support crew" to bring
> food and change of clothes and stuff. If you were gonna do
> it how would you break it up?
>
> (...) I plan to start the ride early in the AM, like
> 5-ish, or first light. o 5:30-8:30 o 9:00-11:00 o 12:-
> 1 o 2-4pm
>
> TIA,
>
> -Badger

You could most certainly try your long ride now, but chances
are that you could find it a bit painful near the end. If
you are comfortable with 50 miles, you certainly don't need
to wait till october to double that; but you would be safer
trying now a 75 miles ride, and repeat that a few times
during weekends until you feel OK; then jump to 100 miles.

You probably don't need a support crew to do this. One thing
you must carry is food. You will need more than you can
carry in your jersey, but there are other ways: one is to
get a good backpack, adapted to cycling. I am not really an
adept of backpacks, (my legs are stronger than my back) but
I have found that, with the rather horizontal position you
have on a road bike, the backpack is not that heavy on the
shoulders. The other way is to get a small rack; mine is
attached to the seatpost with a quick release. Some will
find it a bit freddish-looking, but who cares ?

I would definitely not try to take showers in the middle of
the ride, as this would "soften" me too much; and if no
shower, why change clothes ?

Your timetable looks fine, but maybe you should stop a
little more often and, specially at the end, for shorter
stops. I personnally stop every 1-1/2 to 2 hours for
anything like 5 to 15 minutes, which is what is required to
eat enough. Eating and drinking enough is, I think, the most
difficult. I've managed it correctly up to 200 km (125 mi),
but got the bonk and felt real sick in the train back home
after my recent 270 km (168 mi) ride. I have to master this
by the end of the month as I've registered for my own big
challenge, which is a 310 km marathon on July 3rd.

Jacques

Badger_south

On 12 Jun 2004 15:00:02 GMT, David Reuteler <reuteler@visi.com> wrote:

>Badger_South <Badger@south.net> wrote:
>> Thanks for relating your experience. If you don't mind my
>> asking, where did you tour? Road condition - flat, gentle
>> rolling, etc.?
>
>minneapolis to cheyenne, wy to pueblo, co to missoula to
>the oregon coast to seattle and back down to los angeles.
>soo, flat, rolling and mountainous, highways and the
>occassional interstate (several hundred miles of
>interstate). if you think mountains are bad wait until you
>hit the 20-30 mph headwinds of south dakota. no joke.
>riding in the mountains is actually quite fun ..

I'm thinking rig up a jib and ride like a sailboat, eh?

-B Tackin' and Jibin': The Bikemaster. Bike-o-rama.

Badger_south

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:05:37 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>You can definitely be ready by october. I plan to do a
>century (I'm predicting 8 hours) around then too.

I did my half (53miles) in 3hrs 40 min on the 45lb beater.
I'm typically riding -at least- 30-40 sec faster per mile on
the new Trek. So by raw numbers that would be 7 hrs, 40 min
approx., for the full 100.

Add in some 'sagging' at the end, and figuring in rests and
stuff, 8-8.5 hours seems about right. But I probably will
'cheat' and stop the clock during rests. I mean, c'mon
that's fair, right? <g>

>Being 20 lbs lighter will make a HUGE difference, too. How
>much do yo weigh now?

I'm in the 220s. Down >40lbs since the end of Feb.

-B

Badger_south

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:15:34 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Badger_South wrote:
>:: On 11 Jun 2004 23:43:59 -0700, jcq9000@yahoo.com
>:: (Jonathan Quist) wrote:
>::
>::: When I do a century, I mentally break it down into four
>::: 25 mile segments, and I don't think beyond the current
>::: segment. 25 miles goes by fairly quickly, and I find
>::: that it doesn't seem too long before I'm finishing the
>::: third segment, and have only 25 miles left to go.
>::
>:: Ya know I just realized something - this is a great tip!
>:: But not only on long rides - it also can help on shorter
>:: rides, wrt the boredom, etc.
>::
>:: I think it will be a lot easier to get those 40 milers
>:: if I don't think of it as one long ride, but perhaps as
>:: three 13 milers (I have a 13 mile loop).
>
>I see no way NO to do that unless you plan to say on the
>bike continously the entire time. I just did 50.51 miles
>and recall stopping at 20, 27, 40, and 45 (I was getting
>hot and my butt/back was hurting, plus I was out water). It
>definitely helps.

Not sure I'm following you. I've ridden 30 miles
continuously (in the flats), and I felt very fresh at the
end - and this was at the end of a high mileage week.

So I'm sure I can do 40 staying in the saddle. I'm talking
about cutting it into 13 mile segments -mentally-. You know,
like self-talk: "Ho-hum, here I am doing a 13 miler fun
ride, la-de-da...oh, there's the 13 mile mark - guess I'll
make it 26 miles...de-da-de...oh, there's the 26 mile mark -
might as well do 40." ;-p

>
>I hope to full another 50 tomorrow. We'll see.
>
>::
>:: It's amazing how it can be a stumper to start out
>:: thinking 'jeeze the schedule says I'm riding 25 miles
>:: today for the third day in a row - blech', but when I
>:: get to the 20 mile point I'm thinking 'wow, were did the
>:: time (and the miles) go?'.
>::
>:: One thing that is neat also is if you have a 'problem'
>:: you're trying to solve. I've actually ridden 10 miles at
>:: a stretch and have no memory of it at all, b/c, although
>:: I was 'there' enough to navigate, my mind was so wrapped
>:: up in the problem solving that it fugued.
>
>Now that's scary....also, how do you enjoy riding if your
>zoning out like that? I find i'm either immensely enjoying
>myself or struggling to get home
>

It only happened a few times, and I was enjoying the hell
outta my ruminations. Heck I wish I could do it more. I was
'with it' enough to follow every detail on the road at the
time, I'm sure. It's just like when you're driving and in
perfect tune, but suddenly you're 10miles down the road. So
not scary at all.

I find the best mental state to be in is one where you're
not even thinking about how far you are planning to go,
almost a 'no mind' kind of thing. This happened on my half-
cent. (thankfully), and it seemed -very- short, but still
completely enjoyable. I think it helps to be doing it very
early in the am, and you end up enthralled by the sun rising
and stuff.

Good luck on your repeat 50!

-B

Badger_south

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:28:25 +0200, "Jacques Moser"
<moser.removethe2dots.franscini@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:48:12 +0000, Badger_South wrote:
>
>>
>> People who do touring and stuff ride about 8 hours a day
>> for like 2 weeks. 'Course they're sightseeing so it's
>> more fun. It would probably require a "support crew" to
>> bring food and change of clothes and stuff. If you were
>> gonna do it how would you break it up?
>>
>> (...) I plan to start the ride early in the AM, like
>> 5-ish, or first light. o 5:30-8:30 o 9:00-11:00 o 12:-1
>> o 2-4pm
>>
>> TIA,
>>
>> -Badger
>
>You could most certainly try your long ride now, but
>chances are that you could find it a bit painful near the
>end.

Painful? No problem. I did my first 22 miler and was in a
-lot- of pain for the last 6 miles early this year. I was
moving all around in the saddle, and shaking my arms and
hands, it was excruciating, but nothing I couldn't handle.
It's not like there was anything physically wrong. It's not
like trying to walk on a broken leg - if I know I'm not
damaging anything, I just keep going.

>If you are comfortable with 50 miles, you certainly don't
>need to wait till october to double that; but you would
>be safer trying now a 75 miles ride, and repeat that a
>few times during weekends until you feel OK; then jump to
>100 miles.

Well thing is I want to see what I have 'inside' and if I
can dig deep. I really don't plan on doing anything
'partway' to 100. A few 50s and I'll be ready.

>You probably don't need a support crew to do this. One
>thing you must carry is food. You will need more than you
>can carry in your jersey, but there are other ways: one is
>to get a good backpack, adapted to cycling. I am not really
>an adept of backpacks, (my legs are stronger than my back)
>but I have found that, with the rather horizontal position
>you have on a road bike, the backpack is not that heavy on
>the shoulders. The other way is to get a small rack; mine
>is attached to the seatpost with a quick release. Some will
>find it a bit freddish-looking, but who cares ?

Nix that. I have a couple ppl who will help me. I want to be
lean and light, not lugging food. Maybe at some future time,
b/c a 'self-supported' ride is definitely a neat goal. But
this time, I'm gonna do it like a 10K race, on a loop and
have friends throw me sponges and food, heh-heh. There might
even be balloons and strippers! ;-p

>I would definitely not try to take showers in the middle of
>the ride, as this would "soften" me too much; and if no
>shower, why change clothes ?

Well, I've done a couple long runs and it definitely helped
me to jump in the lake along the route (I had fresh socks
and took off my shoes). I'll pretend it's a duathlon, like
bike-swim-bike, 'kay? ;-)

>Your timetable looks fine, but maybe you should stop a
>little more often and, specially at the end, for shorter
>stops. I personnally stop every 1-1/2 to 2 hours for
>anything like 5 to 15 minutes, which is what is required to
>eat enough. Eating and drinking enough is, I think, the
>most difficult. I've managed it correctly up to 200 km (125
>mi), but got the bonk and felt real sick in the train back
>home after my recent 270 km (168 mi) ride.

Yeah, don't wanna be sick, although I understand being a
former 1/2 marathon runner, that digestive upset can be the
biggest problem, and often the most unexpected/surprising.

>I have to master this by the end of the month as I've
>registered for my own big challenge, which is a 310 km
>marathon on July 3rd.

Good luck. Keep us informed.

Best,

-B

Jacques Moser

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:16:03 +0000, Badger_South wrote:

>
> Nix that. I have a couple ppl who will help me. I want to
> be lean and light, not lugging food. Maybe at some future
> time, b/c a 'self-supported' ride is definitely a neat
> goal. But this time, I'm gonna do it like a 10K race, on a
> loop and have friends throw me sponges and food, heh-heh.
> There might even be balloons and strippers! ;-p
>

If you tell us when and where, somebody could paint "go
Badger go !" on the road, provided you accept to throw empty
bottles for us to collect !

>>I would definitely not try to take showers in the middle
>>of the ride, as this would "soften" me too much; and if no
>>shower, why change clothes ?
>
> Well, I've done a couple long runs and it definitely
> helped me to jump in the lake along the route (I had fresh
> socks and took off my shoes). I'll pretend it's a
> duathlon, like bike-swim-bike, 'kay? ;-)
>

So you need your team to carry a full size swimming pool for
you along the road ?

Jacques

Rick Onanian

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:25:46 -0400, Badger_South <Badger@South.net>
wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:46:43 -0400, Rick Onanian
><spamsink@cox.net> wrote:
>>You're not ready.
>>
>>Work up to it. Do a 4 hour ride this weekend. Add a half
>>hour or an hour every weekend.
>
>I'm not ready, in regards to what? Are you saying I
>could -not- do this ride at my current level of training
>by, say Oct?

I'm saying that you're not ready to do this ride today. You
could do it, but it will be painful, and not worth it. Why
make biking into hard work? It should be fun and feel good.

On the +.5hr plan I suggested above, you'll be ready before
September.

>Bet me $500, and I'll do it tomorrow, big guy! ;->

Egads! I'd have to pay money, AND feel bad for making
you painful?
--
Rick Onanian

Badger_south

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 19:27:22 -0400, Rick Onanian <spamsink@cox.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:25:46 -0400, Badger_South
><Badger@South.net> wrote:
>>On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:46:43 -0400, Rick Onanian
>><spamsink@cox.net> wrote:
>>>You're not ready.
>>>
>>>Work up to it. Do a 4 hour ride this weekend. Add a half
>>>hour or an hour every weekend.
>>
>>I'm not ready, in regards to what? Are you saying I could
>>-not- do this ride at my current level of training by,
>>say Oct?
>
>I'm saying that you're not ready to do this ride today. You
>could do it, but it will be painful, and not worth it. Why
>make biking into hard work? It should be fun and feel good.
>
>On the +.5hr plan I suggested above, you'll be ready before
>September.
>
>>Bet me $500, and I'll do it tomorrow, big guy! ;->
>
>Egads! I'd have to pay money, AND feel bad for making
>you painful?

Just messin' witcha.

-B

Badger_south

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:34:14 +0200, "Jacques Moser"
<moser.removethe2dots.franscini@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:16:03 +0000, Badger_South wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Nix that. I have a couple ppl who will help me. I want to
>> be lean and light, not lugging food. Maybe at some future
>> time, b/c a 'self-supported' ride is definitely a neat
>> goal. But this time, I'm gonna do it like a 10K race, on
>> a loop and have friends throw me sponges and food, heh-
>> heh. There might even be balloons and strippers! ;-p
>>
>
>If you tell us when and where, somebody could paint "go
>Badger go !" on the road, provided you accept to throw
>empty bottles for us to collect !
>
>>>I would definitely not try to take showers in the middle
>>>of the ride, as this would "soften" me too much; and if
>>>no shower, why change clothes ?
>>
>> Well, I've done a couple long runs and it definitely
>> helped me to jump in the lake along the route (I had
>> fresh socks and took off my shoes). I'll pretend it's a
>> duathlon, like bike-swim-bike, 'kay? ;-)
>>
>
>So you need your team to carry a full size swimming pool
>for you along the road ?
>
>Jacques

Yeah, they're gonna run along side, just in case!

-B (actually I live near a river, and have a pool in my
backyard. So there's options)

Rick Onanian

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:39:08 -0400, Badger_South <Badger@South.net>
wrote:
>I think it will be a lot easier to get those 40 milers if I
>don't think of it as one long ride, but perhaps as three 13
>milers (I have a 13 mile loop).
>
>It's amazing how it can be a stumper to start out
>thinking 'jeeze the schedule says I'm riding 25 miles
>today for the third day in a row - blech', but when I get
>to the 20 mile point I'm thinking 'wow, were did the time
>(and the miles) go?'.

Another thing that helps is to drop the schedule, drop the
map, and just ride without a plan. I did that today. My
intention was to ride in the general direction of a bike
path that I haven't ridden since last year, and see how far
it goes now. I ended up finding my way onto it via a
shortcut through the woods. Rode it to it's end, which had
only been extended a half mile or so (lame!). On the way
back, met up with a guy who was riding about my speed, and
rode with him the whole length of the path. Total ride
distance: 40.5 miles.

I haven't been riding much at all lately, and am out of
shape as a result; everything hurts just a little bit.

Empty bike paths are nice.
--
Rick Onanian

Booker C . Bens

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <o1ojc05qfqndt3piisbmfg36rrlok6jeg0@4ax.com>,
Badger_South <Badger@South.net> wrote:
>
>I'm toying with the idea of doing a long ride this fall,
>after a summer of 400 mile/months, and I'm interested in
>some ideas as to pacing. Here's something I've been
>thinking about:
>
>Ride for three hours, then 30 min rest (and take a
>shower?), eat, then ride for 2 hours, repeat rest, then
>ride for an hour, repeat rest, then ride final 2 hours.
>Does that seem like a good scheme? 3-2-1-2?
>
>People who do touring and stuff ride about 8 hours a day
>for like 2 weeks. 'Course they're sightseeing so it's more
>fun. It would probably require a "support crew" to bring
>food and change of clothes and stuff. If you were gonna do
>it how would you break it up?
>
>I'm thinking the mental aspect would be the most
>difficult. Gonna try and get the family interested in it
>to help with that.
>
>I'm sure some here would say 'just ride for the 8 hours,
>what's the big deal', but that would be OK for those who
>have ridden a lot (like frequent 3-4 hour rides), but my
>longest ride has been 3.5 hours, and only did that once.
>I'm hoping to get some posts on others who have done
>something like this, and their experiences vs the initial
>expectations.
>
>I plan to start the ride early in the AM, like 5-ish, or
>first light. o 5:30-8:30 o 9:00-11:00

_ I suspect you won't leave the house after this break. A
steady effort with short breaks is much easier on the body.
If you take an hour off and eat, that's pretty much a
recipe for cramps and upset. Also, with the schedule of
"breaks" it would be easy to over exert yourself in the
early efforts. If you're going to take a long break, 2-3
hours is much better.

> o 12:-1 o 2-4pm
>

_ I'm not sure I see the point of this effort, but whatever
floats your boat. If you can ride for 3 hours, you can ride
for 8 if you eat, drink and set a reasonable pace. It's not
as hard as you're making it. The hardest part about such a
long ride is getting the bike comfortable and learning how
to drink enough.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Bill

You get my vote. 41 posts so far. Troll of the month for
sure. Or, to anal to ride with others. Quit posting and
write when you've got your hundred out of the way. If you
are riding two or three times a day, 100 or more miles a
week then a hundred is no big deal. "Just Do It'".

Bill - top posted on purpose

"Badger_South" <Badger@South.net> wrote in endless messages

Tanya

Badger_South <Badger@South.net> wrote in message news:<o1ojc05qfqndt3piisbmfg36rrlok6jeg0@4ax.com>...
> I'm toying with the idea of doing a long ride this fall,
> after a summer of 400 mile/months, and I'm interested in
> some ideas as to pacing. Here's something I've been
> thinking about:

With 400 mile months you should probably be in good shape
for a long ride.

> Ride for three hours, then 30 min rest (and take a
> shower?), eat, then ride for 2 hours, repeat rest, then
> ride for an hour, repeat rest, then ride final 2 hours.
> Does that seem like a good scheme? 3-2-1-2?

I would nix the shower, far too disruptive to the whole
idea. I would also take shorter rest breaks but perhaps more
often. Your body will let you know when it wants to rest.
Just make sure to eat enough food that you aren't hungry.

> People who do touring and stuff ride about 8 hours a day
> for like 2 weeks. 'Course they're sightseeing so it's more
> fun. It would probably require a "support crew" to bring
> food and change of clothes and stuff. If you were gonna do
> it how would you break it up?

I did a ride last summer - one 8 hour day (hoping now to try
some multi-day touring this summer!) I had a start point and
a destination point I wanted to get to that was about 80
miles away. (I obviously didn't spend the whole 8 hours on
the bike!) To me, the whole fun was doing it solo. I
wouldn't worry about bringing changes of clothes etc
- just wear something with wicking fabric so if you sweat a
lot you won't be drenched. You can carry your food with
you or buy it on the road.

My background previous to the ride was mostly short rides
(5 mile one way commutes) and the odd 1 to 3 hour long fun
ride, but really I hadn't had much mileage before that
ride. I rode on my clunky mountain bike with slicks
commuter, and had a pannier with a bit of stuff in it on
the rack (clothes since I was staying overnight at my
destination, and a bit of fruit and power bars. I stopped
to buy food along the way although made a mistake at
bypassing the last major place to buy something and was
pretty hungry for the last 20 miles of the ride.

If you don't have a rack/panniers you could get a camelback-
style water pack that also has a bit of room to stuff a
spare shirt (if you think you might want one) and a power
bar or two. You could also have sandwiches etc. in a
handlebar bag.

> I plan to start the ride early in the AM, like 5-ish, or
> first light. o 5:30-8:30 o 9:00-11:00 o 12:-1 o 2-4pm

I started at around 8 a.m. (I'm not a morning person so
starting at first light would have been torturous). I tried
not to stop until having gone a decent distance - otherwise
too many stops its hard to maintain momentum. Though I
stopped often enough looking for bathrooms with the amount
of water I consumed. Anywhere particularly scenic I stopped
to enjoy the scenery briefly and have a snack. I stopped a
bit longer where I planned to have lunch but found out when
I got there it was only a snack bar so had to make do with
muffins and fruit, and I stopped for maybe half an hour
close to the end of my ride just to rest my sit bones. (you
really don't want to get up again once you've done this so
don't do it too often) I arrived at the end around 4 pm.
With less rest stops and a more efficient bike you could do
100 miles in about the same time.

My only real gripe with the ride was a lack of hand
positions - I just had one with flat bars and no bar ends,
so I was a bit stiff in the shoulders, hands by the end. And
I would have a more substantial lunch.

Bernie

Tanya wrote:

>Badger_South <Badger@South.net> wrote in message
>news:<o1ojc05qfqndt3piisbmfg36rrlok6jeg0@4ax.com>...
>
>>I'm toying with the idea of doing a long ride this fall,
>>after a summer of 400 mile/months, and I'm interested in
>>some ideas as to pacing. Here's something I've been
>>thinking about:
>>
>
>With 400 mile months you should probably be in good shape
>for a long ride.
>
>
>>Ride for three hours, then 30 min rest (and take a
>>shower?), eat, then ride for 2 hours, repeat rest, then
>>ride for an hour, repeat rest, then ride final 2 hours.
>>Does that seem like a good scheme? 3-2-1-2?
>>
>
>I would nix the shower, far too disruptive to the whole
>idea. I would also take shorter rest breaks but perhaps
>more often. Your body will let you know when it wants
>to rest. Just make sure to eat enough food that you
>aren't hungry.
>
>
>>People who do touring and stuff ride about 8 hours a day
>>for like 2 weeks. 'Course they're sightseeing so it's more
>>fun. It would probably require a "support crew" to bring
>>food and change of clothes and stuff. If you were gonna do
>>it how would you break it up?
>>
>
>I did a ride last summer - one 8 hour day (hoping now to
>try some multi-day touring this summer!) I had a start
>point and a destination point I wanted to get to that was
>about 80 miles away. (I obviously didn't spend the whole 8
>hours on the bike!) To me, the whole fun was doing it solo.
>I wouldn't worry about bringing changes of clothes etc
>- just wear something with wicking fabric so if you sweat a
> lot you won't be drenched. You can carry your food with
> you or buy it on the road.
>
>My background previous to the ride was mostly short rides
>(5 mile one way commutes) and the odd 1 to 3 hour long fun
>ride, but really I hadn't had much mileage before that
>ride. I rode on my clunky mountain bike with slicks
>commuter, and had a pannier with a bit of stuff in it on
>the rack (clothes since I was staying overnight at my
>destination, and a bit of fruit and power bars. I stopped
>to buy food along the way although made a mistake at
>bypassing the last major place to buy something and was
>pretty hungry for the last 20 miles of the ride.
>
>If you don't have a rack/panniers you could get a camelback-
>style water pack that also has a bit of room to stuff a
>spare shirt (if you think you might want one) and a power
>bar or two. You could also have sandwiches etc. in a
>handlebar bag.
>
>>I plan to start the ride early in the AM, like 5-ish, or
>>first light. o 5:30-8:30 o 9:00-11:00 o 12:-1 o 2-4pm
>>
>
>I started at around 8 a.m. (I'm not a morning person so
>starting at first light would have been torturous). I tried
>not to stop until having gone a decent distance - otherwise
>too many stops its hard to maintain momentum. Though I
>stopped often enough looking for bathrooms with the amount
>of water I consumed. Anywhere particularly scenic I stopped
>to enjoy the scenery briefly and have a snack. I stopped a
>bit longer where I planned to have lunch but found out when
>I got there it was only a snack bar so had to make do with
>muffins and fruit, and I stopped for maybe half an hour
>close to the end of my ride just to rest my sit bones. (you
>really don't want to get up again once you've done this so
>don't do it too often) I arrived at the end around 4 pm.
>With less rest stops and a more efficient bike you could do
>100 miles in about the same time.
>
>My only real gripe with the ride was a lack of hand
>positions - I just had one with flat bars and no bar ends,
>so I was a bit stiff in the shoulders, hands by the end.
>And I would have a more substantial lunch.
>
Hey Tanya Nice ride report. I am a commuter too, do about 25
kms round trip daily. Now and then I feel the desire to tune
up the body a bit and take a nice ride. Last Saturday I did
a 87 km ride with lots of hills. It worked out fine. I've
been a slug lately, too many life pressures getting me down
maybe. So I took a handful of granola bars, couple water
bottles, rain jacket and poly long johns and hit the
blacktop. The ride was a scenic trip. I must agree with
stopping long enough tp enjoy the scenery! The rain became a
bit of a bore, but not bad once I found a Johnny on the Spot
where I could put my longies on. A fruit stand in the Fraser
Valley sold me the most vivid snack of fresh picked
raspberries! Just fabulous.. If you've been riding
regularly, it's not hard to now and then dramatically extend
your range harmlessly. Next week, who knows? Best , Bernie