bicycle for horses

Dennis Farr

I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some
good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to
power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the
treadmill.

I have since found out that horses operated stationary
treadmills for powering machines and ferryboats, but that
was almost 200 years ago.

I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that
would enable an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance
Armstrong and/or Smarty Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively
flat miles at 35 mph would be a good goal, better than
anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and rider.) Basic
data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate up
to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably
have to be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of
automatic transmission to keep the horse operating at it's
best speed and keep it from falling off either end on a
hilly road.

On a more practical level, if there are some of you who
DON'T think it would be worthwhile to do this just to see if
it could be done, this could magnify the output of a horse
just as a bike magnifies the output of a human, and in parts
of the world where animal power is still used, it could make
peoples' lives better.

I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any
money. Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot
and let me know if it works.

There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and
engineering.

Badger_south

On 21 Jun 2004 12:03:45 -0700, dfarr@comcast.net (Dennis Farr) wrote:

>I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some
>good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used
>to power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the
>treadmill.
>
>I have since found out that horses operated stationary
>treadmills for powering machines and ferryboats, but that
>was almost 200 years ago.
>
>I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that
>would enable an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance
>Armstrong and/or Smarty Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively
>flat miles at 35 mph would be a good goal, better than
>anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and rider.) Basic
>data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate up
>to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably
>have to be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of
>automatic transmission to keep the horse operating at it's
>best speed and keep it from falling off either end on a
>hilly road.
>
>On a more practical level, if there are some of you who
>DON'T think it would be worthwhile to do this just to see
>if it could be done, this could magnify the output of a
>horse just as a bike magnifies the output of a human, and
>in parts of the world where animal power is still used, it
>could make peoples' lives better.
>
>I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any
>money. Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot
>and let me know if it works.
>
>There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and
>engineering.

Won't work for two reasons that I can think of.

1. too much weight for the apparatus;
2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but
also their midsection at the gallop, which functions like
an additional leg or similar. The mid section contracts
and extends adding a lot to the power and it would be
difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;
3. lack of proper fit and friction to transfer as much power
from the horse's feet to the treadmill.

OK, that's three reasons... ;-p

-Badger Oh, and you'd have to change horses well before 100
miles. I think the pony express riders changed up at like 30
miles or 50 miles, IIRC.

David Kerber

In article
<c9962ece.0406211103.72eea9db@posting.google.com>,
dfarr@comcast.net says...
> I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some
> good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used
> to power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the
> treadmill.
>
> I have since found out that horses operated stationary
> treadmills for powering machines and ferryboats, but that
> was almost 200 years ago.
>
> I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that
> would enable an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance
> Armstrong and/or Smarty Jones. (I'm thinking 100
> relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a good goal,
> better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and
> rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and
> can generate up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill
> would probably have to be around 10-12 feet long, would
> need some sort of automatic transmission to keep the horse
> operating at it's best speed and keep it from falling off
> either end on a hilly road.
>
> On a more practical level, if there are some of you who
> DON'T think it would be worthwhile to do this just to see
> if it could be done, this could magnify the output of a
> horse just as a bike magnifies the output of a human, and
> in parts of the world where animal power is still used, it
> could make peoples' lives better.

I think it could work, but don't think you'd get 35 mph out
of it for any length of time. Do some of the math, and
figure out how much power it would take to move 1200 lbs at
35 mph over a typical road, and then compare that to how
much power a horse can put out for 3 hours. I don't think
those numbers will be consistent with each other.

Consider a bicycle: a top human sprinter (Cipo, etc) can put
out a little over 2 hp for a few seconds, and that gets him
up to around 50 mph, with a total weight of bike and rider
of less than 200 lb. I don't think you'll get a horse and
carriage to 35 for very long, even without carrying any
useful payload.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

Kyler Laird

Badger_South <Badger@South.net> writes:

>2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but
> also their midsection at the gallop, which functions
> like an additional leg or similar. The mid section
> contracts and extends adding a lot to the power and it
> would be difficult to transfer this power to a
> treadmill, IMO;

O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a
treadmill? Where would it go?

--kyler

Leo Lichtman

"Kyler Laird" <Kyler@news.Lairds.org> wrote: O.k., I give.
How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill? Where
would it go? ^^^^^^^^^^^^ A horse walking on a treadmill
could transfer full power to the propulsion system. But a
horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full
gallop) would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of
the time. So, to keep him from running off the front of the
system, you would have to tether him, and he would end up
pulling on a harness. That is what draft horses already do,
except they push against the ground. I believe that is the
most efficient method of drawing power from a horse. And, I
believe a rider on the back of a horse would be using the
horsepower more efficiently than any contrivance you could
rig up. A rider at full gallop could surely beat Lance
Armstrong.

Pete

"Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net> wrote

> A rider at full gallop could surely beat Lance Armstrong.

Every day for 3 weeks?

Pete

Badger_south

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:10:11 GMT, Kyler Laird <Kyler@news.Lairds.org>
wrote:

>Badger_South <Badger@South.net> writes:
>
>>2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but
>> also their midsection at the gallop, which functions
>> like an additional leg or similar. The mid section
>> contracts and extends adding a lot to the power and it
>> would be difficult to transfer this power to a
>> treadmill, IMO;
>
>O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a
> treadmill? Where would it go?
>
>--kyler

Because the horse would run off the treadmill, being in the
air during that time.

-B

Mike Kruger

"Pete" <ptr@usaf.com> wrote in message
news:OXMBc.4021$Il1.3484@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
>
> "Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>
> > A rider at full gallop could surely beat Lance
> > Armstrong.
>
> Every day for 3 weeks?
>
How long can a horse sustain a gallop?

Secretariat's time in the Belmont was 2:24 for 1.5 miles,
which is about
37.5 miles per hour. (He won by 31 lengths, and it's one of
those records that may stand for a long time.)

But even Secretariat couldn't maintain anywhere near that
pace for many miles.

Kyler Laird

"Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net> writes:

>"Kyler Laird" <Kyler@news.Lairds.org> wrote: O.k., I give.
>How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill? Where
>would it go? ^^^^^^^^^^^^ A horse walking on a treadmill
>could transfer full power to the propulsion system. But a
>horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full
>gallop) would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of
>the time.

Uh, yeah. But the ground/treadmill is still the only thing
against which the horse can push. The force doesn't go
anywhere else.

>So, to keep him from running off the front of the system,
>you would have to tether him, and he would end up pulling
>on a harness.

Or use an incline to offset the resistance of the system,
but I suspect that if you rigged such a device you'd want a
harness anyway.

--kyler

Marty Wallace

"Dennis Farr" <dfarr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c9962ece.0406211103.72eea9db@posting.google.com...
> I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some
> good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used
> to power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the
> treadmill.
>
> I have since found out that horses operated stationary
> treadmills for powering machines and ferryboats, but that
> was almost 200 years ago.
>
> I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that
> would enable an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance
> Armstrong and/or Smarty Jones. (I'm thinking 100
> relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a good goal,
> better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and
> rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and
> can generate up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill
> would probably have to be around 10-12 feet long, would
> need some sort of automatic transmission to keep the horse
> operating at it's best speed and keep it from falling off
> either end on a hilly road.
>
> On a more practical level, if there are some of you who
> DON'T think it would be worthwhile to do this just to see
> if it could be done, this could magnify the output of a
> horse just as a bike magnifies the output of a human, and
> in parts of the world where animal power is still used, it
> could make peoples' lives better.
>
> I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any
> money. Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot
> and let me know if it works.
>
> There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and
> engineering.

The horse has evolved to cover long distances efficiently.
It's one of the most efficent animals on land. Anything you
do to change it's energy transfer system only detracts from
the horses performance.

Marty

Curtis L . Russ

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:33:16 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
<l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>A horse walking on a treadmill could transfer full power to
>the propulsion system. But a horse, developing full power
>(picture a horse at full gallop) would be out of contact
>with the treadmill a lot of the time. So, to keep him from
>running off the front of the system, you would have to
>tether him, and he would end up pulling on a harness.

So I'm thinking lots of hamsters or gerbils. Little arows so
they know which way to run. And maybe a whip.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...

David Kerber

In article <beujq1-thb.ln1@lairds.us>,
Kyler@news.Lairds.org says...
> Badger_South <Badger@South.net> writes:
>
> >2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but
> > also their midsection at the gallop, which functions
> > like an additional leg or similar. The mid section
> > contracts and extends adding a lot to the power and it
> > would be difficult to transfer this power to a
> > treadmill, IMO;
>
> O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a
> treadmill? Where would it go?

I think he's saying that their hooves would likely slip on
the treadmill belt, causing inefficient power transfer.

>
> --kyler
>

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

David Kerber

In article <MTMBc.112096$Gx4.3316@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net says...

...

> contrivance you could rig up. A rider at full gallop could
> surely beat Lance Armstrong.

Not for 100 miles, he couldn't.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

Jeff

dfarr@comcast.net (Dennis Farr) wrote in message news:<c9962ece.0406211103.72eea9db@posting.google.com>...
> I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some
> good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used
> to power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the
> treadmill.
>

I think a lot of the discussion on this is missing a basic
point... A horse on a running on a treadmill is using the
exact same motion as a horse running on the ground. All the
treadmill and wagon can do is add friction and slow down the
horse. The reason a bicycle is more efficient than running
is that the weight is supported and the power is transferred
directly to the wheels.

If you could design a wheeled contraption to support the
horses weight and let it transfer power directly to the
wheels, you would have something that would go very well.
Also people would pay to see it

Jeff