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10-07.-2004, 05:15 AM
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USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - maybe someone can post a
link to the old discussion. With that said: Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe? |
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10-07.-2004, 06:30 AM
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#2 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
"J.B." <jackburns@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:yUCHc.3030$ri.888@lakeread04... > I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - maybe > someone can post a > link to the old discussion. With that said: > > Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And > if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't it > blow a huge hole in the custom frame > lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are > good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good > enough for average joe? In principle stock frames are going to be better than custom frames for the price due to the economies of scale. That's why you can buy high-performance computer for less than a thousand dollars while making one from scratch would probably cost more than a billion dollars. Of course, they don't dig fresh ore to make the frame, but the principle still applies to a degree. Shayne Wissler |
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10-07.-2004, 07:15 AM
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#3 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
On 2004-07-09, J.B. <jackburns@mailinator.com> wrote:
> I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - > maybe someone can post a link to the old discussion. > With that said: > > Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? > And if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't > it blow a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess > it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to > win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for > average joe? When I worked for Trek (quite a while ago now, admittedly), the team frames were custom designed and built in the prototype workshop. It may be different now. -- -John (john@os2.dhs.org) |
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10-07.-2004, 07:46 AM
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#4 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:05:24 -0400, "J.B." <jackburns@mailinator.com>
wrote: >I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - >maybe someone can post a link to the old discussion. >With that said: > >Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And >if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't it blow >a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess it begs the >question: If stock frames are good enough to win the Tour >De France, are they not good enough for average joe? "Stock" in this context just means "we make these all the time." It doesn't mean "this is just the crap we foist off on the duffers." Given that Trek already produces (for sale) frames light enough to build a bike that's under the minimum weight, there's probably little to be gained by betting on an experimental unit instead of going with a known design that's in production...and the image thing, about being able to buy the same bike Lance rides in the TdF, is a Marketing Tool. The fact that a frame has made it into production does not diminish its capabilities...and at this point, the law of diminishing returns is probably making frame development into an exercise in frustration. -- Typoes are a feature, not a bug. Some gardening required to reply via email. Surrealism is a pectinated ranzel. |
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10-07.-2004, 07:46 AM
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#5 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
Men of anywhere near average height and proportions don't
need custom frames for bike fit. I've seen a number of OCLV Treks from the old Saturn team, and while the basic tubes, lugs and proportins may have been stock, there were small differerences. Some or all had steel forks. Most or all had numner plate tabs under the top tube. JT |
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10-07.-2004, 10:46 AM
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#6 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
On 7/9/04 4:05 PM, in article yUCHc.3030$ri.888@lakeread04, "J.B."
<jackburns@mailinator.com> wrote: > I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - > maybe someone can post a link to the old discussion. > With that said: > > Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? > And if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't > it blow a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess > it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to > win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for > average joe? The primary point of a custom frame, unless you want particular aesthetics, is to get a frame that fits you well. If the average joe fits a stock bike that happens to fit Lance, or whoever, on USPS, then the stock frame is certainly good enough for the average joe. Baird |
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10-07.-2004, 12:15 PM
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#7 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
J.B. <jackburns@mailinator.com> wrote:
> I'm sure this question has been asked in the past - > maybe someone can post a link to the old discussion. > With that said: > > Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? > And if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't > it blow a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess > it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to > win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for > average joe? They are stock frames because Trek can't make "non-stock" frames with the lug system they have. So they have managed to turn a problem into a marketing opportunity... Boasting that "we force all our riders to ride our frames even if they don't really fit that well" doesn't sound as good. Take a look at Hincapie's stem length some time and tell me he wouldn't do better with a frame a few cm longer (that Trek doesn't make). For another example of making lemonade out of lemons, look here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/tech/?id=s- pecialized Specialized is boasting about making a custom 145mm stem for Cipo, but why did they have to? Because their new carbon frame only comes in a few sizes because the molds are so expensive, and for Mario to get his stem low enough, they put him on the 58cm frame, which was too short, so they made him a 145mm custom stem to fix the problem they created. Lots of pros ride custom frames because they ride their stems lots lower than normal humans. Petacchi rides a Pinarello that is something like a 58 TT / 54 ST just so he can get his stem really low. http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php...2004/news/may21 Since Pinarello makes thier frames out of tin cans, it's easy to make custom frames, unlike Trek who makes their fancy frames out of expensive plastic that is really expensive to make custom. What I really want to know is, since Colnago and Trek both use lugs to make their carbon frames, how can Colnago make custom C40s for their racers, but Trek can't? What is the difference in their lug construction? |
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10-07.-2004, 02:45 PM
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#8 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
> Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames??? And
> if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't it > blow a huge hole in the custom frame > lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are > good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good > enough for average joe? Yes, the team rides completely stock frames... with the exception that Lance & two others are riding a new version of the Madone called the SSL, which is built from 50 & 110- weight carbon, as opposed to the all-110-weight carbon of the standard Madone or 5900. However, this frame will become available as a limited-edition sometime in the next six months. The way TREK builds carbon frames, the majority of the expense is front-loaded. The first frame costs a fortune to build, but all after that cost much less. So you amortize the cost out by building as many as practical... so unless TREK were to entirely change how they make frames, building non-production bikes for the team is out of the question. The good thing about all this is that it gives us a better "floor" bike to sell, since it's all about technology rather than uniqueness. By the way, if anybody needs proof that TREK doesn't build custom frames for the team, check out George Hincapie. It would be difficult for me to believe that what he rides is an ideal fit! However, it's still interesting to note that of the two areas one might want to change (lengthening the top tube and making it taller), at least one doesn't appear to be an issue, since he rides his stem as low as it can get. Pretty amazing how much drop (from seat to bars) on his bike! --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com |
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10-07.-2004, 06:15 PM
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#9 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:42:04 -0400, jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse
Thompson) wrote: >Take a look at Hincapie's stem length some time and tell me >he wouldn't do better with a frame a few cm longer (that >Trek doesn't make). Guys his size should be riding 13 or 14 cms stems, which he is. Or are you saying he should have longer reach than he currently does? I'm not so sure about that considering how flat his back is on the bike. JT |
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10-07.-2004, 10:00 PM
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#10 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
jack-<< Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock"
frames??? And if that's true, being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge hole in the custom frame lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good enough for average joe? >><BR><BR> Well, being good enough to win, doesn't really take into account the huge van riding along with the riders full of spares, including framesets. And they may be a size that fits a rider, and that becomes the 'stock size', for Trek. Lance's framesets are not 'stock'. Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302 (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene" |
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11-07.-2004, 03:47 AM
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#11 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:42:04 -0400, jesseth@removethis_gwi.net (Jesse
Thompson) wrote: >They are stock frames because Trek can't make "non-stock" >frames with the lug system they have. Could be; but it's hard to imagine there's not at least a little wiggle room. After all, the tubes have to be assembled onto the lugs. Also, a smart engineer could consider mixing and matching tubes and lugs from different frame sizes to achieve custom geometry. And now that OCLV is available in WSD, there are even more to choose from. I don't see why it should be too hard to have made a slightly shorter top tube for, say, Roberto Heras as an example. >So they have managed to turn a problem into a marketing >opportunity... That's for sure. Just as I would have done! ;-) >What I really want to know is, since Colnago and Trek both >use lugs to make their carbon frames, how can Colnago make >custom C40s for their racers, but Trek can't? Good question. Could it be a different problem besides technical that keeps Trek from offering custom geometry? I'm thinking logistics, but that seems unlikely given that Project One has so many different color combinations available. >What is the difference in their lug construction? Looks like Trek is internal and Colnago external, but I don't know enough to guess what other differences might come into it. |
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11-07.-2004, 03:47 AM
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#12 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:43:08 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote: >Men of anywhere near average height and proportions don't >need custom frames for bike fit. True. >I've seen a number of OCLV Treks from the old Saturn team, >and while the basic tubes, lugs and proportins may have >been stock, there were small differerences. Some or all had >steel forks. That might have been in the days when Trek sold the "Classic" fork, pretty flexible fork. I wonder if Trek developed the "Air Rail" in response to some riders using steel forks? > Most or all had numner plate tabs under the top tube. The Treks for sale at my LBS don't have those. ;-) |
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11-07.-2004, 05:01 AM
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#13 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:39:58 -0500, dianne_1234
<dianne_1234@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote: > >I don't see why it should be too hard to have made a >slightly shorter top tube for, say, Roberto Heras as >an example. > What makes you think he requires a short toptube for a man his height? JT |
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11-07.-2004, 05:15 AM
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#14 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <vecchio51@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040710084925.29866.00001102@mb-m18.aol.com... > jack-<< Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" > frames??? And if that's > true, being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge > hole in the custom frame > lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are > good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good > enough for average joe? >><BR><BR> > > > Lance's framesets are not 'stock'. > I have to disagree with this statement in part. I believe Trek makes its 58cm bike to "fit" Lance and that anybody else who rides a 58cm will have to adjust to that specific frame! |
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11-07.-2004, 06:31 AM
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#15 |
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Re: USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" frames????
> Lance's framesets are not 'stock'.
Peter: Could you elaborate on that one? I've seen the production lines; there's nothing whatsoever special about what Lance rides, aside from the fact that he'll sometimes be on a production bike that the public doesn't get for a couple of months. The Madone SL will very shortly be available (end of this month perhaps), and the Madone SSL a bit later. The bike he's using for many of the flat sections is a standard Madone, but being the weight-weenie that he is, anything with the slightest grade and he goes to the 50 gram lighter "SL" without the flared (aero) seat tube & downtube. As mentioned, that will shortly be available at your local dealer. OK, because Lance's bike has a glued-on number plate hanger, I suppose that could qualify it as non-stock? That might be stretching things just a bit. Frame geometry? Absolutely untouched. Truth? If Lance demanded a 1cm longer top tube, he'd have it.. and so would the rest of us. Fortunately, Lance just happens to fit very nicely on a stock 58cm geometry. No customization whatsoever. More truth? For some of the mountain bike riders, they *did* tweak the frames a bit, with slightly- longer top tubes, a couple of years ago. But not for any of the bikes Lance rides. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member "Qui si parla Campagnolo " <vecchio51@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040710084925.29866.00001102@mb-m18.aol.com... > jack-<< Are the USPS TREK bikes really just "stock" > frames??? And if that's > true, being completely objective, doesn't it blow a huge > hole in the custom frame > lobby? I guess it begs the question: If stock frames are > good enough to win the Tour De France, are they not good > enough for average joe? >><BR><BR> > > Well, being good enough to win, doesn't really take into > account the huge van > riding along with the riders full of spares, including > framesets. > > And they may be a size that fits a rider, and that becomes > the 'stock size', > for Trek. > > Lance's framesets are not 'stock'. > > Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. > Boulder, CO, 80302 > (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali > costruite eccezionalmente bene" |
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