OT Where's my royalties?

Tony Raven

Jon Senior wrote:
>
> Despite this, I attempt to correct as many people as
> possible in the vain hope that one day people will understand what
> "phonetic" means.

I think most of us know what phonetic means and manage to cope.

> I can't remember what its official title is, but when
> my father learnt it in the military they didn't use "phonetic".
>

Do you really want to know? The NATO Phonetic Alphabet. Sorry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

Tony

Chris Malcolm

"Tony Raven" <junk@raven-family.com> writes:

>Dave Kahn wrote:
>> Jon Senior <jon@restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk.remove> wrote in message
>> news:<MPG.1b4504dc960721f29896ff@news.clara.net>...

>>> It's not the "phonetic" alphabet. That is the one used in dictionarys to
>>> demonstrate the "phonetics" of a word allowing pronunciation.

>> It's certainly not a phonetic alphabet in that sense but it is
>> generally known as the phonetic alphabet, and that's how it was
>> described when I had to learn ot for gliding. See:

>As you say, although its not phonetic, phonetic alphabet is what it is
>universally known as.

Language is like that. Cycling safety helmets is another example.



--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Tony Raven

Chris Malcolm wrote:
>
> Language is like that. Cycling safety helmets is another example.

I think we should start a campaign to educate people that Ordinary bicycles
are not ordinary and that Ordnance Survey maps are not a catalogue of military
supplies. Tricky stuff this language.

Tony

Keith Willoughby

Jon Senior wrote:

> In article <57db8bde.0406250201.3c2449e@posting.google.com>, dkahn400
> @yahoo.co.uk says...
>> It's certainly not a phonetic alphabet in that sense but it is
>> generally known as the phonetic alphabet, and that's how it was
>> described when I had to learn ot for gliding. See:
>
> I know this. I had the argument with a friend at university who had also
> learnt it as such. Despite this, I attempt to correct as many people as
> possible in the vain hope that one day people will understand what
> "phonetic" means.

The first definition from the 1913 Webster's Revised Unabridged
Dictionary is " 1. Of or pertaining to the voice, or its use."

The NATO Phonetic Alphabet is used to spell out words. With the voice.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"It ain't the heat, it's the humility."
- Yogi Berra

Jon Senior

In article <2k2dfoF16d4pgU1@uni-berlin.de>, junk@raven-family.com
says...
> I think most of us know what phonetic means and manage to cope.

You'd be surprised! As I said, I was involved in an argument over this
with a university student. A large number of people who encountered this
"phonetic alphabet" relatively early in life ended up thinking that that
was the meaning of phonetic.

> > I can't remember what its official title is, but when
> > my father learnt it in the military they didn't use "phonetic".
> >
>
> Do you really want to know? The NATO Phonetic Alphabet. Sorry
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

Gah! That wasn't what they called it at the time.

Jon

Richard Bates

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:07:17 +0100, in
<2k2cd1F17cigjU1@uni-berlin.de>, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-family.com>
wrote:

>As you say, although its not phonetic, phonetic alphabet is what it is
>universally known as.

A Aardvark
B Bdellium
C Csar
D Deuterium
E Euthanasia
F ??
G Gnat
H Honest
I Iaculum
J ??
K Knickers
L ??
M Mnemonic
N ??
O Oestrogen
P Psychlepath
Q ??
R ??
S ??
T Tsar
U ??
V ??
W Whore
X Xylophone
Y Yttrium (?)
Z ??

I used to know all of them. Anybody feel like filling in the gaps?

--
DISCLAIMER: My email box is private property.Email which
appears in my inbox is mine to do what I like with.
Anything which is sent to me (whether intended or not)
may, if I so desire, form a legal and binding contract.

Jon Senior

In article <873c4jzzf5.fsf@flat222.dyndns.org>, keith@flat222.org=20
says...
> The first definition from the 1913 Webster's Revised Unabridged
> Dictionary is " 1. Of or pertaining to the voice, or its use."
>=20
> The NATO Phonetic Alphabet is used to spell out words. With the voice.

pho=B7net=B7ic

1 Of or relating to phonetics.=20
2 Representing the sounds of speech with a set of distinct symbols, each=20
designating a single sound: phonetic spelling.=20
3 Of, relating to, or being features of pronunciation that are not=20
phonemically distinctive in a language, as aspiration of consonants or=20
vowel length in English.=20

[American Heritage Dictionary] - I don't have a copy of the OED to hand!

The significant points here are that it relates to the sound of speech,=20
not the spelling of words.

The NATO p* Alpahabet is a system for spelling words without ambiguity.=20
A phonetic alphabet is a way of describing the sound of a word without=20
ambiguity.

The former cannot tell you how to pronounce a word. Which is where=20
phonetics comes from:

Hence:

New Latin phnticus, representing speech sounds, from Greek phntikos,=20
vocal, from phntos, to be spoken, from phnein, to produce a sound, from=20
phn, sound, voice. (The symbols got munched... check out=20
www.dictionary.com to see what it should look like!).

It boils down to this. By no definition of phonetic does the NATO=20
"Phonetic" Alphabet make a good description. This is why I rant about=20
it. Phonetic already has a perfectly good meaning.

Jon

Jon Senior

In article <602od0pi3hprj2k0041109da0roosndkc3@4ax.com>, usenet01
@artybee.net says...
> A Aardvark
> B Bdellium
> C Csar
> D Deuterium
> E Euthanasia
> F ??
> G Gnat
> H Honest
> I Iaculum
> J ??
> K Knickers
> L ??
> M Mnemonic
> N ??
> O Oestrogen
> P Psychlepath
> Q ??
> R ??
> S ??
> T Tsar
> U ??
> V ??
> W Whore
> X Xylophone
> Y Yttrium (?)
> Z ??

That's a good one. How about "hoar" for H. Let's not make it too
difficult!

Jon

Keith Willoughby

Jon Senior wrote:

> In article <873c4jzzf5.fsf@flat222.dyndns.org>, keith@flat222.org
> says...
>> The first definition from the 1913 Webster's Revised Unabridged
>> Dictionary is " 1. Of or pertaining to the voice, or its use."
>>
>> The NATO Phonetic Alphabet is used to spell out words. With the voice.
>
> pho·net·ic

[...]

> It boils down to this. By no definition of phonetic does the NATO
> "Phonetic" Alphabet make a good description. This is why I rant about
> it. Phonetic already has a perfectly good meaning.

I gave you an older definition above that does exactly that. In USA in
1913, at least, the *primary* definition of 'phonetic' was "Of or
pertaining to the voice, or its use" - unsurprisingly, given the root of
the word. It seems you're railing against people using a proper noun
derived from the original meaning of a word instead of its more recent
technical meaning.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"New songs and true songs and songs to bring you"

Colin Blackburn

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:22:22 +0100, Jon Senior
<jon@restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk.remove> wrote:

> In article <602od0pi3hprj2k0041109da0roosndkc3@4ax.com>, usenet01
> @artybee.net says...
....
>> H Honest
....
>
> That's a good one. How about "hoar" for H. Let's not make it too
> difficult!

But hoar has a sounded aitch in normal pronunciation, honest doesn't
(along with honour, hour, heir, and their derivatives.)

Colin

Jon Senior

In article <87n02ryiy6.fsf@flat222.dyndns.org>, keith@flat222.org
says...
> I gave you an older definition above that does exactly that. In USA in
> 1913, at least, the *primary* definition of 'phonetic' was "Of or
> pertaining to the voice, or its use"

Which does not include spelling. *That* is pertaining to the written
word.

> - unsurprisingly, given the root of
> the word.

Indeed, "of the voice". Not "of the hand". If you examine the true roots
of the word, namely its Greek origins of "sounds" then you'll see why I
have issues here.

> It seems you're railing against people using a proper noun
> derived from the original meaning of a word instead of its more recent
> technical meaning.

No I'm railing against people using a proper noun derived from a
misunderstanding of its meaning. The technical meaning you refer to
derives from the word's roots. The incorrect usage in the context of
spelling has no origin in the word "phonetic".

1. Of or pertaining to the voice, or its use.

Note "voice" not "hand".

One more time:

The incorrectly named "NATO Phonetic Alphabet" is a method for accurate
spelling without ambiguity. It does not relate to pronunciation or word
sounds which is the meaning of (and always has been the meaning of)
"phonetic".

Jon

Robert Bruce

mae <jon@restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk.remove> wedi ysgrifennu:

> I don't have a copy of the OED to
> hand!

I do (the underscores in the original are non-ascii phonetic characters ;-):

phonetic (_________), a. and n.
[ad. mod.L. phonetic-us (Zoega 1797), a. Gr. _________ adj., f. _______ to
be spoken, f. ______ to utter voice, speak. In F. phonétique (Dict. Acad.
1878).]
A. adj.
1. Representing vocal sounds: applied to signs or characters which represent
the sounds, esp. the individual or elementary sounds, of speech, or which
express the pronunciation of words.
Applied spec.
a. to characters in ancient writing (orig. Egyptian) representing sounds,
opposed to the ideographic or pictorial; and
b. to systems of spelling in which each letter represents invariably the
same spoken sound, e.g. to systems proposed for reform of English spelling,
as opposed to the traditional (historical or etymological) method.
a.
[1797 G. Zoega De Origine et Usu Obeliscorum 454 Superest quinta classis
notarum phoneticarum, quem ad aenigmaticam referri posse jam monui.]
1826 Edin. Rev. XLV. 104 The picture-writers, seeking for the first time to
express sounds, and so to render their work Phonetic.
1831 M. Russell Egypt xi. (1853) 434 To George Zoega also belongs the merit
of employing (1797) the term phonetic.
1851 D. Wilson Preh. Ann. (1863) II. iv. iv. 285 The derivation of_phonetic
symbols from a primitive system of pictorial writing.
1879 P. Le P. Renouf Orig. Relig. 16 The key to hieroglyphic decipherment
[consists] in the knowledge of the simultaneous use of both phonetic and
ideographic signs.
b.
1848 A. J. Ellis (title) A Plea for Phonetic Spelling.
1848 ---- Esen_alz ov F_netics p. ii, Key to the Phonetic spelling employed
in this work._ A copious account of the English phonetic alphabet is
furnished_pp. 87_105.
1864 Max Müller Sci. Lang. II. iii. 108 A new system of _Brief Writing and
True Spelling', best known under the name of the Phonetic Reform.
1864 Soc. Sci. Rev. 223 The Phonetic alphabet_consists of thirty-four
letters, twenty_two being consonants and twelve vowels. These_fairly
represent every important sound in our language.
2. a. Of, pertaining or relating to the sounds of spoken language;
consisting of vocal sounds.
1861 Max Müller Sc. Lang. i. ii. 40 Two processes which should be carefully
distinguished._---1. Dialectical Regeneration. 2. Phonetic Decay.
1867 R. Broughton As a Flower xiii. 125 A whistle, from which unfeminine
phonetic exercise she however refrained.
1875 Whitney Life Lang. iv. 53 This_is itself an example of phonetic change.
1884 J. Tait Mind in Matter (1892) 183 Advanced languages are _evolved'
chiefly by plagiarism and by phonetic corruption.
b. Involving vibration of the vocal cords (as opp. to mere breath or
whisper). Cf. phonate.
1880 M. Mackenzie Dis. Throat & Nose I. 443 His voice was weak, but
phonetic.
c. Comb. (= phonetico-), as
phonetic-linguistic, -morphological, -phonemic, -semantic adjs.
1961 L. F. Brosnahan Sounds of Language v. 101 The criteria_are of
phonetic-linguistic nature.
1921 E. Sapir Language viii. 185 In other words, on this particular point it
took German at least three hundred years to catch up with a
phonetic-morphological drift that had long been under way in English.
1966 M. Pei Gloss. Linguistic Terminol. p. ix, A specialist in descriptive
linguistics and phonetic-phonemic description.
1931 L. Bloomfield in Language VII. 205 Some linguistic forms bear no
partial phonetic-semantic resemblance to other forms.
1966 M. Pei Gloss. Linguistic Terminol. 204 There is a partial
phonetic-semantic resemblance in all forms containing a particular
phonestheme.
_ 3. Entom. Applied to the collar or prothorax of hymenopterous insects when
its posterior angles cover the mesothoracic or so-called vocal spiracles.
1826 Kirby & Sp. Entomol. IV. 331 Collar._ 5. Phonetic_When its posterior
angles approaching the wings, cover the vocal spiracles. Ex. Hymenoptera.
B. n. An element of a Chinese character which is itself the character for
another word, adopted as part of the new character because of the words'
identity or similarity of sound. = primitive n. 6.
1842 J.-M. Callery Encycl. Chinese Lang. 3 The phonetic is in itself one of
the characters of primitive formation, which cannot be annexed to any of the
preceding orders, and which must therefore be looked on as indivisible.
1874 S. W. Williams Syllabic Dict. Chinese Lang. p. lvi/1 That part of a
character which is not the radical, has no name among the Chinese, but
foreigners have termed it the primitive or phonetic.
1907 W. Hillier Chinese Lang. i. 6 It is possible_by learning these
phonetics, or primitives as they are sometimes called, to make a very close
guess at the sound of any Chinese character.
1948 R. A. D. Forrest Chinese Lang. ii. 38 In many cases the connection of
the phonetic element, whether in sound or shape, with a word still existing
independently, or with the same phonetic in other characters, has become
much more obscure through changes in sound or in written form.
1968 P. Kratochvíl Chinese Lang. Today v. 151 The former was the borrowed
phonetic_and the latter the radical added as an indication that the whole
form was borrowed and denoting something connected with manual action.
1973 Sci. Amer. Feb. 54/2 There are characters that are not pronounced like
their phonetic, often for reasons of historical change.
Hence
pho_netical a. (rare), phonetic;
pho_netically adv., in a phonetic manner; in relation to vocal sound;
according to sound or pronunciation;
phonetician (___________), one versed in speech-sounds, a phonetist;
phoneticism (_______________),
(a) phonetic quality, or the phonetic system, of writing or spelling;
(b) phonetic spelling; an example of this;
(c) use of the criterion of phonetic similarity to determine the phonemes of
a language;
pho_neticist (_____),
(a) an advocate of phonetic spelling;
(b) = phonetician;
phoneticization (___________), phonetic spelling; an example of this;
(greater) correlation of symbol and sound (in a writing system);
pho_neticize (_____) v. trans., to render phonetic, to write phonetically.
1845 Ellis Plea Phonotypy & Phonography 4 note, In this pamphlet, we only
recommend Phonography upon the score of its giving a correct *phonetical
representation of the English language.
1867 Burton Hist. Scot. (1873) I. v. 188 By a distinct phonetical and
grammatical pedigree.
1826 Edin. Rev. XLV. 120 Characters employed by the Egyptians_*phonetically
in representing foreign combinations of sound.
1876 T. Hill Order Studies 108 Bad spelling_usually arises from an attempt
to spell phonetically with the common alphabet.
1848 A. J. Ellis Esen_alz ov F_netics 88 A practist *f_neti_an.
1859 A. Holbrook Normal Meth. 34 The most approved views of Phoneticians
have been made subservient.
1877 Sweet Handbk. Phonetics 20 The first and indispensable qualification of
the phonetician is a thorough practical knowledge of the formation of the
vowels.
1933 L. Bloomfield Language v. 75 The phonetician can study either the
sound-producing movements of the speaker_or the resulting sound-waves.
1964 D. Abercrombie Eng. Phonetic Texts 14 It is not, in the nature of
things, possible for a _standard' mode of transcription of English, suitable
for all purposes and all audiences, to be agreed on by phoneticians.
1975 Amer. Speech 1973 XLVIII. 111 To do so is perfectly sound phonemically,
though Phoneticians use a modified symbol (with hook) for the r-colored
vowel.
1885 G. L. Gomme Hist. T. Hickathrift p. iv, There are too few *phoneticisms
and dialect words to make it probable that the print in the Pepysian
collection is the one directly derived from popular tradition.
1938 Better English Nov. 44/1 Phoneticism is not a noble progressive
movement. It is only an annoying attack on a superior language which will
never give up its proud fundamental structure.
1939 Amer. Speech XIV. 148/1 The author condemns phoneticism as contrary to
language structure.
1952 A. Cohen Phonemes of Eng. ii. 24 The same objection to phoneticism in
phonemic analysis can be raised against Trubetzkoy's handling of the problem
how to decide whether we have to do with one or more phonemes.
1977 Daily Tel. 24 Feb. 18 Probably the most bizarre example of phoneticism
I have ever come across was an 11-year-old's spelling of the word
_usual'---_yousyouall'.
1849 Fraser's Mag. XL. 423 To the consistent *phoneticist, we need only
observe that the new code_would be as arbitrary as the old.
1932 G. K. Zipf Sel. Stud. Princ. Relative Frequency in Lang. i. 4 All
phoneticists agree about it; it is at once evident to anyone listening to a
native of Peking speak.
1935 ---- Psycho-Biol. of Lang. (1936) 96 The highly important work of the
experimental phoneticist.
1954 Pei & Gaynor Dict. Linguistics 168 Phoneticist, a person who studies or
is skilled in phonetics.
1915 Spectator 21 Aug. 235/1 To turn the Russian genitive plural termination
into _off', as is sometimes done, is to go in for an exaggerated
*phoneticization.
1959 Brno Studies in English I. 14 Voices demanding reforms of traditional
spellings usually regard _phoneticization' of such spellings as the only
effective remedy.
1970 Language XLVI. 959 For a primitive logographic system can develop into
a full system of writing only if it succeeds in attaching to a sign a
phonetic value independent of the meaning which this sign has as a _word';
this is phoneticization.
1975 Daily Colonist (Victoria, B.C.) 22 Aug. 5/1 The common direction of
phoneticization for all written languages in the world must be followed.
1848 A. J. Ellis Esen_alz ov F_netics Pref., Mr. Isaac Pitman first
propounded the idea_of *phoneticizing the English language.
1881 J. Fryer in Nature XXIV. 54/2 [To] phoneticise the foreign term, using
the sounds of the Mandarin dialect.

--
Rob

Please keep conversations in the newsgroup so that all may contribute
and benefit.

Jon Senior

In article <2k2h0lF17fbbpU1@uni-berlin.de>,
willbedeletedoffserver@analytical-dynamics.co.uk says...
> mae <jon@restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk.remove> wedi ysgrifennu:
>
> > I don't have a copy of the OED to
> > hand!
>
> I do (the underscores in the original are non-ascii phonetic characters ;-):
<snip>

Thanks. I take it you have an online copy. If you typed all that in then
you truly deserve a pint.

Jon

David Martin

On 25/6/04 12:14 pm, in article 602od0pi3hprj2k0041109da0roosndkc3@4ax.com,
"Richard Bates" <usenet01@artybee.net> wrote:

> A Aardvark
or Aisle
Q Quay
Z zheng