Calling the Campy Experts here

Mark

Hi folks, Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge of this topic, I
have a question for you all.

I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, and have a strong
desire to build this bike with nothing but hopefully Record
Components.

I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look pretty stupid on
this bike, as the Paramount has Cable housing guides on the top tube.
I'm thinking too there may be a cable routing problem with an Ergo
configuration on this type of frame.

I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube shifters,
but am considering perhaps a modern Campy record hub/freewheel in 9,
or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a double chainring 39/53 in front.

My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters have a problem
operating through the full range of movement on a modern day Record
rear Derailleur utilizing a modern day 9, or 10 Speed Cassette?"

I know there's certainly also nothing wrong with the older NOS Record
Brake Levers, and these shouldn't be a problem I imagine actuating the
newer Campy Brake Calipers?

I'm hoping my question doesn't come off as sounding stupid, and I
appreciate the advice of those in the "know" about this sort of thing.
Thank you, Mark

David L. Johnson

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:11:51 -0700, Mark wrote:

> I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look pretty stupid on
> this bike, as the Paramount has Cable housing guides on the top tube.

I really don't see that as being a problem, and IMO Ergo is very nice to
have.

> I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube shifters, but
> am considering perhaps a modern Campy record hub/freewheel in 9, or 10
> speed cassette. Most likely a double chainring 39/53 in front.
>
> My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters have a problem
> operating through the full range of movement on a modern day Record rear
> Derailleur utilizing a modern day 9, or 10 Speed Cassette?"

I used old -- very old -- campy downtube shifters with 8-speed, no
problem. The lever twists a ways around to get to the big sprockets, but
it worked fine for me. 10 speed has the same diameter cassette, so it
should work.

>
> I know there's certainly also nothing wrong with the older NOS Record
> Brake Levers, and these shouldn't be a problem I imagine actuating the
> newer Campy Brake Calipers?

Well, they will work, but the new calipers require more pull than the old
ones, so you will have to adjust them carefully to not run out of lever
travel. Ergo levers would work better, though.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. --
_`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |

Qui si parla Campagnolo

apoman-<< as the Paramount has Cable housing guides on the top tube.
I'm thinking too there may be a cable routing problem with an Ergo
configuration on this type of frame. >><BR><BR>

There wpuldn't be but-

Apoman-<< I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube shifters,
but am considering perhaps a modern Campy record hub/freewheel in 9,
or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a double chainring 39/53 in front. >><BR><BR>

<< My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters have a problem
operating through the full range of movement on a modern day Record
rear Derailleur utilizing a modern day 9, or 10 Speed Cassette?" >><BR><BR>


Using the last generation, 'big right barrell', C-Record friction shifter, and
it will, combined with a modern rear der.

The stack of 8s(what this shifter was designed for) is not that much shorter
than 9/10s.

Altho a BIG fan of friction(I use it on my Merckx), finding cogs may be
somewhat challenging, w/o noise, as these cogs are really close together. It
may be a better idea to use a modern rear hub, loose 9 or 10s cogs and black
Campag spacers, to make the cogs father apart. less cogs but easier to shift.

apoman-<< I know there's certainly also nothing wrong with the older NOS
Record
Brake Levers, and these shouldn't be a problem I imagine actuating the
newer Campy Brake Calipers? >><BR><BR>


You can use either with either. Old levers., new brakes and vice versa.

apoman-<< I'm hoping my question doesn't come off as sounding stupid, and I
appreciate the advice of those in the "know" about this sort of thing.
>><BR><BR>

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Tom Paterson

>From: "Mark":

>I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, (snip)

>I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look pretty stupid on
>this bike, as the Paramount has Cable >housing guides on the top tube.

(snip snip)
>considering perhaps a modern Campy record hub/freewheel in 9,
>or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a double chainring 39/53 in front.

[Concerns inre Record brake levers (non brifter) working with new-pattern Campy
calipers.]

My ca. '92 Tommasini SLX has interior TT cable routing, front entry right about
11:00 (from the rear, of course), a difference of a scant half inch, max,
compared to centered guides. Ergo 8sp works great on this old Tommi and no one
(who cares who cares who cares?) has ever audibly made other than complimentary
remarks about this frame/bike.

(Expanding): This is my Johnny Cash bike, parts from many years. TA cages
(pending replacement) C Record crank (165), Nuovo Record SF front hub, 8sp
Record rear, Record Carbon 8sp BB System brifters ("pointy"hoods), Chorus
Profit pedals, later front (believed to be early 9sp) derailleur, Chorus D
brakes, old Tommi panto SP (mfg. unknown), Turbo suede/steel saddle, Cinelli
1A, Top Ergo 66 deep, non-ergo bars.

Never a trace of indigestion, non-matching rims and all.

I like brifters so much better than DT levers that I wouldn't dream of going
back, except maybe for a total period-correct bike. --TP

Mark

"David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.04.22.05.31.45.856706@lehigh.edu>...
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:11:51 -0700, Mark wrote:

> Hi David, Thank you for your post. I gather what you mean, is that the width of the cassettes are all about the same regardless of whether they are 8, 9, or 10 speed, as they all have to fit within the dropouts on a frame, correct? So then in this case, the rear derailleur travels the same amount of distance/travel in, and out, regardless of the number of cassette cogs, right?

Doing a bit of reading about Campagnolo Modern Brake Calipers, namely
the Record Dual Pivot Units, I understand that these use bearings,
versus the less expensive models which I believe use bushings instead.

I don't really know that this may have been a problem?, but I would
have thought that with these Top of the line Record Calipers, and all
new high grade Cables, and Housings on board that Brake actuation
should be virtually effortless? Is it the return spring tension that
would be the problem?

I can't forsee how lets say perhaps a pair of Vintage Modolo Levers
(Or Campy) would have trouble actuating a pair of the more modern dual
pivot calipers? I'm trying to learn though, and please understand that
I'm not saying you are incorrect about this. Just want to learn the
facts, and head off possible problems that might lie ahead with this
particular frame build-up. Thank you, Mark



> I used old -- very old -- campy downtube shifters with 8-speed, no
> problem. The lever twists a ways around to get to the big sprockets, but
> it worked fine for me. 10 speed has the same diameter cassette, so it
> should work.

> Well, they will work, but the new calipers require more pull than the old
> ones, so you will have to adjust them carefully to not run out of lever
> travel. Ergo levers would work better, though.

Mark

Hi David, re-reading your reply, I understand now what you are
stating, in that the more modern dual pivot calipers require more
"travel" at the Brake Lever to actuate, correct?

I also agree with your opinion, that the Campy Ergo levers are very
nice. My Bianchi has the Veloce Ergos on board. I'm thinking though,
that it doesn't make sense to have Ergo Levers, with downtube shifters
on this frame.
>
you said:

Well, they will work, but the new calipers require more pull than the
old
> ones, so you will have to adjust them carefully to not run out of lever
> travel. Ergo levers would work better, though.

Sheldon Brown

Mark wrote:

> Hi folks, Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge of this topic, I
> have a question for you all.
>
> I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, and have a strong
> desire to build this bike with nothing but hopefully Record
> Components.
>
> I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look pretty stupid on
> this bike,

So looks are more important than function to you?

> as the Paramount has Cable housing guides on the top tube.

Huh? That has nothing to do with the choice of Ergo. Most bikes have
such guides, and there's no compatibility issue at all.

> I'm thinking too there may be a cable routing problem with an Ergo
> configuration on this type of frame.

Nope, that's your imagination.

> I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube shifters,
> but am considering perhaps a modern Campy record hub/freewheel in 9,
> or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a double chainring 39/53 in front.
>
> My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters have a problem
> operating through the full range of movement on a modern day Record
> rear Derailleur utilizing a modern day 9, or 10 Speed Cassette?"

Maybe, but in any case friction shifting a 9- or 10-sprocket cassette
will likely be a maddening exercise, because the lever movement will be
so small. My very strong advice is to go with Erto.

Sheldon "Cogito Ergo Ergo" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+
| A ship in the harbor is safe, but |
| that is not what ships are built for. |
| --John A. Shedd |
+-----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Jay Beattie

"Sheldon Brown" <captbike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
news:4087EC05.8010804@sheldonbrown.com...
> Mark wrote:

(snip-a-roo)

>> Maybe, but in any case friction shifting a 9- or 10-sprocket
cassette
> will likely be a maddening exercise, because the lever movement
will be
> so small. My very strong advice is to go with Erto.

Or Ergo. Or Pergo, the new system where you push the chain from
sprocket to sprocket with a wood-grain vinyl stick. I mean
really, why would anyone go friction on a 9 or 10 speed drive
train. If the OP is trying to achieve historical accuracy, then
he should use Nuovo Record, Brooks saddle, nail-on cleats and
wooly shorts. I think he can still get Tressostar tape
somewhere. I like it when it gets all slimey, and your bars look
like The Mummy. What I miss are the open-back mesh gloves that
would give you that cool tan pattern. -- Jay Beattie.

Donald Gillies

apoman60612@yahoo.com (Mark) writes:

>I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube shifters
>(with campy 10-speed derailleurs) but am considering perhaps a modern
>Campy record hub/freewheel in 9, or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a
>double chainring 39/53 in front.

First of all, campy downtube levers shift just fine on a 126 mm bike,
such as an old raleigh pro (have one in my garage) - with a nuovo
record mech. They would also work with a 130 mm rear spacing. On the
other hand, some other types of derailleurs such as suntour VGT have a
longer "throw" meaning you have to pull more cable to get it to go
through the full travel on the rear sprockets. For example, I ran
campy nuovo record levers with a suntour VGT, and the lever went from
almost 9 oclock to the 2 oclock position, so not possible with this
combo to put a VGT and these levers on 126 mm or 130 mm rear axle.

You could always borrow or temporarily buy some campy downtube
shifters on ebay and if they don't work, sell them and get something
fatter. fatter choices include modern ergo barcons (
www.branfordbike.com sells a conversion kit from canada / "LeTour"
that can turn modern ergo barcons into downtube shifters ), or get
perhaps suntour ratcheting downtube shifters with the bigger barrels.

By the way, a nice "period correct" replacement for your campy
downtube shifters would be suntour ratcheting barcon shifters, still
available as reprints from the original molds from www.rivendell.com
or from ebay all the time, maybe slightly used.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Mark

Ouch Sheldon, That hurt! Naw, just kidding my friend, you can slap me
around anytime! lol I've lurked here awhile, and I do know you're
one of the folks who would be giving straight up, right-on no BS
advice, Thank you!

Thinking about what you have said now makes perfect sense to me....
you are 100% right.

The only difference between a Paramount frame, and the newer frames of
today, is that on the Paramount the Rear Brake Cable guides are at
about the 11, or 12 oclock position on the top tube, versus most
modern frames having them at around 7 oclock, and like you say, I too
now agree, this should be no compatibility problem at all with the
Ergo Cable routing from the shifters to the brake calipers, either
front, or back.

I must have been 1/2 asleep when I first posted, as I couldn't at
first visualize the Ergos working with this older frameset. Please
forgive me.

Yes. Looks are important to me as well as function, but while we're on
the subject of function, what you mention about functionality trying
to find gears in desperation with an 8, 9, or 10 speed cassette makes
perfect sense also.

Thinking now about it, I do understand what you're telling me about
just how sensitive getting a very thin chain to track correctly on any
given cog on a 8, 9, or 10 speed cassette is. Trying to do this with
friction shifters I now clearly see would be an excersize in utter
futility. I'd have to remane the bike to "Cuss", because no doubt,
that would be all I'd be doing while riding.

Having Campy Ergos on my Bianchi, I can visualize exactly what you're
telling me. I have found that perfect adjustment with ergos doesn't
take much turning on the cable adjusters at all.

Thanks again Sheldon for enlightening me, and helping me come to my
senses!
Your advice has put me on the right path. Mark D.


Sheldon Brown <captbike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message news:<4087EC05.8010804@sheldonbrown.com>...
> Mark wrote:
>
> > Hi folks, Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge of this topic, I
> > have a question for you all.
> >
> > I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, and have a strong
> > desire to build this bike with nothing but hopefully Record
> > Components.
> >
> > I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look pretty stupid on
> > this bike,
>
> So looks are more important than function to you?
>
> > as the Paramount has Cable housing guides on the top tube.
>
> Huh? That has nothing to do with the choice of Ergo. Most bikes have
> such guides, and there's no compatibility issue at all.
>
> > I'm thinking too there may be a cable routing problem with an Ergo
> > configuration on this type of frame.
>
> Nope, that's your imagination.
>
> > I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube shifters,
> > but am considering perhaps a modern Campy record hub/freewheel in 9,
> > or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a double chainring 39/53 in front.
> >
> > My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters have a problem
> > operating through the full range of movement on a modern day Record
> > rear Derailleur utilizing a modern day 9, or 10 Speed Cassette?"
>
> Maybe, but in any case friction shifting a 9- or 10-sprocket cassette
> will likely be a maddening exercise, because the lever movement will be
> so small. My very strong advice is to go with Erto.
>
> Sheldon "Cogito Ergo Ergo" Brown
> +-----------------------------------------+
> | A ship in the harbor is safe, but |
> | that is not what ships are built for. |
> | --John A. Shedd |
> +-----------------------------------------+
> Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
> Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
> http://harriscyclery.com
> Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
> http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

David L. Johnson

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:10:36 -0700, Jay Beattie wrote:

> train. If the OP is trying to achieve historical accuracy, then
> he should use Nuovo Record, Brooks saddle, nail-on cleats and
> wooly shorts. I think he can still get Tressostar tape
> somewhere. I like it when it gets all slimey, and your bars look
> like The Mummy. What I miss are the open-back mesh gloves that
> would give you that cool tan pattern. -- Jay Beattie.

I recently found real-live Tressostar tape at REI, of all places. I don't
much care for the strands flying in the breeze, though. I do like the
old-style gloves, though, "velo-noma" and all.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | I don't believe you, you've got the whole damn thing all wrong.
_`\(,_ | He's not the kind you have to wind-up on Sundays. --Ian Anderson
(_)/ (_) |

Mark

Hi Jay, It was part of the reason I had wondered, and asked these
questions, as I was at first considering a "Somewhat" time-correct
build up at first.

The frame I speak of building up is an NOS 50th Anniversary Paramount.

Perhaps as Sheldon has suggested, go with the new goodies,(I'd like
all Record) and never look back. Mark

"Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote in message news:<108gd6f7tlu57a1@corp.supernews.com>...
> "Sheldon Brown" <captbike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
> news:4087EC05.8010804@sheldonbrown.com...
> > Mark wrote:
>
> (snip-a-roo)
>
> >> Maybe, but in any case friction shifting a 9- or 10-sprocket
> cassette
> > will likely be a maddening exercise, because the lever movement
> will be
> > so small. My very strong advice is to go with Erto.
>
> Or Ergo. Or Pergo, the new system where you push the chain from
> sprocket to sprocket with a wood-grain vinyl stick. I mean
> really, why would anyone go friction on a 9 or 10 speed drive
> train. If the OP is trying to achieve historical accuracy, then
> he should use Nuovo Record, Brooks saddle, nail-on cleats and
> wooly shorts. I think he can still get Tressostar tape
> somewhere. I like it when it gets all slimey, and your bars look
> like The Mummy. What I miss are the open-back mesh gloves that
> would give you that cool tan pattern. -- Jay Beattie.

A Muzi

Mark wrote:

> Hi folks, Please forgive me on my lack of knowledge of this topic, I
> have a question for you all.
>
> I'm going to be building up an NOS Paramount frame, and have a strong
> desire to build this bike with nothing but hopefully Record
> Components.
>
> I'm thinking that Campy Ergo Levers are going to look pretty stupid on
> this bike, as the Paramount has Cable housing guides on the top tube.
> I'm thinking too there may be a cable routing problem with an Ergo
> configuration on this type of frame.
>
> I would prefer to use a pair of Campy NOS Record Downtube shifters,
> but am considering perhaps a modern Campy record hub/freewheel in 9,
> or 10 speed cassette. Most likely a double chainring 39/53 in front.
>
> My question is: "Will the old style Downtube shifters have a problem
> operating through the full range of movement on a modern day Record
> rear Derailleur utilizing a modern day 9, or 10 Speed Cassette?"
>
> I know there's certainly also nothing wrong with the older NOS Record
> Brake Levers, and these shouldn't be a problem I imagine actuating the
> newer Campy Brake Calipers?
>
> I'm hoping my question doesn't come off as sounding stupid, and I
> appreciate the advice of those in the "know" about this sort of thing.


The classic 1013/1 levers are barely able to reach ten
gears. Guys have done it but you'll be at 180 degrees in low
gear and the shift is finicky in friction. If you must go
DT, get the current Ten bar con shifters and the downtube
mounting kit.

Why not just use the Ergo levers? I didn't understand your
problem with them

And classic brake levers work fine with modern brakes, both
Record DP and SP.

Really. Ride an Ergo bike. They are really nice.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

William Holiday

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:10:36 -0700, "Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com>
wrote:

<
<"Sheldon Brown" <captbike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
<news:4087EC05.8010804@sheldonbrown.com...
<> Mark wrote:
<
<(snip-a-roo)
<
<>> Maybe, but in any case friction shifting a 9- or 10-sprocket
<cassette
<> will likely be a maddening exercise, because the lever movement
<will be
<> so small. My very strong advice is to go with Erto.
<
<Or Ergo. Or Pergo, the new system where you push the chain from
<sprocket to sprocket with a wood-grain vinyl stick. I mean
<really, why would anyone go friction on a 9 or 10 speed drive

I don't know, it just happened. I was upgrading parts as I was wearing them out.
Started with 7sp dt shifters. When I needed to replace wheels, I shifted<gr> to
cassette from freewheel w a 105 8sp(9sp compatible) hub and 7sp cassette with a
spacer. I ride in winter and when the indexing would screw up, I would go
friction. So I thought it was plausible to just get a 9 sp Ultegra casette this
year and just keep the friction. And it was, but had all thing gone according to
hoyle, I probably would have upped to 9sp ft or barcons.

Unfortunately, the story doesn't end there. I was getting very poor front ring
shifts and was generally cleaning up the bike after the winter season a couple
days back, and there were clean cracks in the seat stays just below the seat
tube welds. A shade under 12k miles on that frame for me, lots of it in New
England winter.

That's my story and I'm

Billy Holiday 8-)

<train. If the OP is trying to achieve historical accuracy, then
<he should use Nuovo Record, Brooks saddle, nail-on cleats and
<wooly shorts. I think he can still get Tressostar tape
<somewhere. I like it when it gets all slimey, and your bars look
<like The Mummy. What I miss are the open-back mesh gloves that
<would give you that cool tan pattern. -- Jay Beattie.
<
<
<