EPO and Hobby Cyclists

Steven Bornfeld

Steve wrote:
> On 4/18/04 2:22 PM, in article 1085sd5afq58b89@corp.supernews.com, "Carl
> Sundquist" <carlsun@cox-internet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
>>
>>>>>Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
>>>>>blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
>>>>>the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
>>>>>muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
>>>>
>>>>This is not true.
>>>>
>>>>Andy Coggan
>>>>
>>>
>>>Research cites to back this, please?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive east
>>to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.
>>
>>2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter whether
>>you have increased your fitness or not.
>>
>>
>
>
> Are you saying your "Gaydar" will be enhanced too?

No, the EPO was after that.

Steve

>

Andy Coggan

"NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
news:t4q58054v4updnml42ei431sal8jvsvgbg@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
> <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >"NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
> >news:9sd3805dr28n889atna8il76959rmbkh5h@4ax.com...
> >
> >> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
> >> those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
> >> capablility.
> >>
> >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
> >> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
> >> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
> >> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
> >
> >This is not true.
> >
> >Andy Coggan
> >
> Research cites to back this, please?

They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the more
modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using search terms such
"polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.

Andy Coggan

Gunny Bunny

"Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:aLDgc.20455$A_4.10421@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
> news:t4q58054v4updnml42ei431sal8jvsvgbg@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
> > <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > >"NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
> > >news:9sd3805dr28n889atna8il76959rmbkh5h@4ax.com...
> > >
> > >> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
> > >> those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen carrying
> > >> capablility.
> > >>
> > >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
> > >> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
> > >> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
> > >> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
> > >
> > >This is not true.
> > >
> > >Andy Coggan
> > >
> > Research cites to back this, please?
>
> They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the more
> modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using search terms
such
> "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.
>
> Andy Coggan

Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support your
argument if u have one

Tim Mullin

"Gunny Bunny" <none@none.com> wrote in
newstFgc.2640$CO3.225602@news20.bellglobal.com:

>
> "Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:aLDgc.20455$A_4.10421@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> "NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
>> news:t4q58054v4updnml42ei431sal8jvsvgbg@4ax.com...
>> > On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
>> > <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > >"NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
>> > >news:9sd3805dr28n889atna8il76959rmbkh5h@4ax.com...
>> > >
>> > >> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more
>> > >> of those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen
>> > >> carrying capablility.
>> > >>
>> > >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided
>> > >> in our blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level
>> > >> yet, unlike the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't
>> > >> help if you can't muscles don't max out the draw for what is
>> > >> already there.
>> > >
>> > >This is not true.
>> > >
>> > >Andy Coggan
>> > >
>> > Research cites to back this, please?
>>
>> They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the
>> more modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using
>> search terms
> such
>> "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.
>>
>> Andy Coggan
>
> Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support
> your argument if u have one

Shouldn't it be the guy claiming "The truth is...." first back up his
statement? Dr. Coggan is well known exercise physiologist, and well
respected in these parts. I tend to believe what he says, because he has
some expertise in the field. No offense, but when someone with the
esteemed moniker "NobodyMan" claims that most of us don't use all the
oxygen in out blood....well....why the fuck should I believe him? Here's
how it works, you first made the claim, Andy called bullshit, and you
really need to take a bit of your own advice and, "provide at least one
to support your argument if u have one "

trg

Gunny Bunny wrote:
> "Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:aLDgc.20455$A_4.10421@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> "NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
>> news:t4q58054v4updnml42ei431sal8jvsvgbg@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
>>> <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:9sd3805dr28n889atna8il76959rmbkh5h@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more of
>>>>> those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen
>>>>> carrying capablility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in
>>>>> our blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet,
>>>>> unlike the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if
>>>>> you can't muscles don't max out the draw for what is already
>>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>> This is not true.
>>>>
>>>> Andy Coggan
>>>>
>>> Research cites to back this, please?
>>
>> They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the
>> more modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using
>> search terms such "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory
>> capacity", etc.
>>
>> Andy Coggan
>
> Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support
> your argument if u have one

Even though it runs counter to my personal experience, Andy's word is gold
in this matter. My own experience was so far from a contriolled, quantified
study, that I assume there were other factors mitigating the effects of a
rising crit. I went from a crit of 21 to 56 in little more than a year,
stopping off at around 35 for some months. An interesting experience, but
probably useless in experimental terms.

NobodyMan

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:50:09 GMT, Tim Mullin <tvphotog@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>"Gunny Bunny" <none@none.com> wrote in
>newstFgc.2640$CO3.225602@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
>>
>> "Andy Coggan" <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:aLDgc.20455$A_4.10421@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> "NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
>>> news:t4q58054v4updnml42ei431sal8jvsvgbg@4ax.com...
>>> > On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:37:00 GMT, "Andy Coggan"
>>> > <acoggan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >"NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
>>> > >news:9sd3805dr28n889atna8il76959rmbkh5h@4ax.com...
>>> > >
>>> > >> EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells, pushing more
>>> > >> of those critters into the bloodstream, providing more oxygen
>>> > >> carrying capablility.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided
>>> > >> in our blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level
>>> > >> yet, unlike the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't
>>> > >> help if you can't muscles don't max out the draw for what is
>>> > >> already there.
>>> > >
>>> > >This is not true.
>>> > >
>>> > >Andy Coggan
>>> > >
>>> > Research cites to back this, please?
>>>
>>> They are too numerous to count. But if you want to read some of the
>>> more modern research, go to PubMed and search for studies using
>>> search terms
>> such
>>> "polycythemia", "VO2max", "muscle respiratory capacity", etc.
>>>
>>> Andy Coggan
>>
>> Andy, u made the statement, u should provide at least one to support
>> your argument if u have one
>
>Shouldn't it be the guy claiming "The truth is...." first back up his
>statement? Dr. Coggan is well known exercise physiologist, and well
>respected in these parts. I tend to believe what he says, because he has
>some expertise in the field. No offense, but when someone with the
>esteemed moniker "NobodyMan" claims that most of us don't use all the
>oxygen in out blood....well....why the fuck should I believe him? Here's
>how it works, you first made the claim, Andy called bullshit, and you
>really need to take a bit of your own advice and, "provide at least one
>to support your argument if u have one "
>

I was going off the research I read. I asked for cites to enlighten
my own knowledge. I'm now reading up on some of the cites that have
been thoughtfully given.

Did I say "You don't know what the #@#$#$ you are talking about so
shut the #$#$#$ up?" NO. I asked for some cites. That's all.
Otherwise all that was provided was anectdotal evidence, which is to
say, no evidence at all.

Geez, don't be so uptight.

NobodyMan

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 16:22:42 -0500, "Carl Sundquist"
<carlsun@cox-internet.com> wrote:

>
>"NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
>> >>
>> >> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
>> >> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
>> >> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
>> >> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
>> >
>> >This is not true.
>> >
>> >Andy Coggan
>> >
>> Research cites to back this, please?
>>
>>
>
>1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive east
>to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.
>
>2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter whether
>you have increased your fitness or not.
>

Anectodotal evidence, which is not evidence at all and therefore
inadmissable. Thank you please play again.

Now what Dr. Coogan provided I'll take to heart and read.

Carl Sundquist

"NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
> >
> >1. Get on an airplane. Fly to Fresno, CA. Watch out for queers. Drive
east
> >to Mt. Whitney trailhead. Hike to summit.
> >
> >2. Take some EPO. Repeat #1. Your journey will be easier, no matter
whether
> >you have increased your fitness or not.
> >
>
> Anectodotal evidence, which is not evidence at all and therefore
> inadmissable. Thank you please play again.
>
> Now what Dr. Coogan provided I'll take to heart and read.
>

If you try to do a 100 mile ride without a seat on your seatpost, do you
need more than anecdotal evidence to know that your ass will hurt?

Carl Sundquist

"NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
>
> Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
> blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
> the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
> muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
>

Research cites to back this, please?

Tom Kunich

"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:108930ngogmoid2@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
> >
> > Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
> > blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
> > the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
> > muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
> >
>
> Research cites to back this, please?

Actually he is not only right but correct as well. Blood oxygen normally
runs about 99% in a healthy individual. You'll be seeing blackout spots at
90% or lower.

Ewoud Dronkert

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:24:55 -0500, Carl Sundquist wrote:
> If you try to do a 100 mile ride without a seat on your seatpost

You know, Gert-Jan Theunisse did that for some while (but without the
post as well, presumably) after he had had an operation on the perineum.

Carl Sundquist

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Hy1hc.1354$eZ5.679@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
> news:108930ngogmoid2@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "NobodyMan" <none@none.net> wrote in message
> > >
> > > Truth is, most of us don't use all the oxygen already provided in our
> > > blood. Our muscles just aren't "trained" to that level yet, unlike
> > > the elite athletes. Increasing the capacity won't help if you can't
> > > muscles don't max out the draw for what is already there.
> > >
> >
> > Research cites to back this, please?
>
> Actually he is not only right but correct as well. Blood oxygen normally
> runs about 99% in a healthy individual. You'll be seeing blackout spots at
> 90% or lower.

So is that the premise of how an altitude tent works? Your muscles are
drawing out all the oxygen in your blood as you sleep, so therefore
the body must produce more RBCs? Sleep high, train low because you're
using more muscle and oxygen while you're sleeping?

Tom Kunich

"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:782bd281.0404200552.572aa282@posting.google.com...
>
> So is that the premise of how an altitude tent works? Your muscles are
> drawing out all the oxygen in your blood as you sleep, so therefore
> the body must produce more RBCs? Sleep high, train low because you're
> using more muscle and oxygen while you're sleeping?

When your blood oxygen runs below 96% or so it causes the body to release
more natural EPO.

Carl Sundquist

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rcbhc.2032$eZ5.324@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
> news:782bd281.0404200552.572aa282@posting.google.com...
> >
> > So is that the premise of how an altitude tent works? Your muscles are
> > drawing out all the oxygen in your blood as you sleep, so therefore
> > the body must produce more RBCs? Sleep high, train low because you're
> > using more muscle and oxygen while you're sleeping?
>
> When your blood oxygen runs below 96% or so it causes the body to release
> more natural EPO.
>

That's fine. Now go re-read what Mr. Nobody said about our muscles not being
"trained" like elite athletes, therefore we're not using all the O2 in our
blood anyway and unable to take advantage of an increased 'crit.