Jan: No Doyenne

TM

"h squared" <peckledoggyremovetoreply@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:408A85EF.4B3B3AEE@hotmail.com...
>my post was about one (only one, and probably not the
> correct one, but it's interesting to me) of the ways that question could
> be answered.

No, I agreed with you on that point.

> if it's not interesting to you,

It is. That is why I posted. I think you're confused because you're looking
for the way in which I was slamming you and I'm not. I was saying granted,
but how do we account for this?

I was merely stating my opinion that sometimes commentators do a disservice
to athletes by stating that their physical failures are because they aren't
champion material mentally. How do we know from the couch who wrung every
last bit of talent and effort out of their ability and came up short to a
better man? How do we know that the better man isn't stronger physically
because he is a basket case psychologically?

I was trying to lift it out of the LA/Jan conflict and talk about mental
toughness in general, but like you imply, this is difficult at best.

Carl Sundquist

"h squared" <peckledoggyremovetoreply@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:408A85EF.4B3B3AEE@hotmail.com...
>
> if it's not interesting to you, that's ok. there's never a lot of stuff
> on this group on how to get mentally tougher so i figure people don't
> want to talk about it.
>

How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there were only a
couple of instances where a sports psychologist was brought in to work with
us. Most of that focused on how deal with external distractions, such as
security.

On my own, I met with a sports psych., but it was for improving focus and
motivation. I don't consider that to be the same as mental toughness,
though.

First, we would need to define mental toughness.

Nev Shea

h squared <peckledoggyremovetoreply@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:408A7033.81CE089A@hotmail.com:

> a long time ago i was reading about the mental aspects of racing and
> there was one thing that interested me that makes me think of jan
> (although i'm not saying it's his problem, don't know anything about
> him really).
>
> the problem was that even though someone wanted to win, they always
> managed to sabotage their efforts somehow, eg, didn't train enough
> even though they knew better, partied the night before the big race,
> etc. and the solution proposed was that they were doing these things,
> maybe without realizing why, but so that if they did lose, they always
> had an out. what they were really afraid of was that if they did their
> very very best and made no mistakes, what if they still lost? they
> would have to face up to the fact that even their best wasn't good
> enough.
>
> also, being *so* good at something that not getting first is a failure
> can't be a great place to be for some people.


One time that I recall Ullrich giving himself an excuse for losing in
advance was when he went to the '98 Vuelta saying he was using it to
train for World's . . . but he won that Vuelta anyway.

NS

Jeff Jones

"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:108l6srh5eetqcb@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there were only a
> couple of instances where a sports psychologist was brought in to work
with
> us. Most of that focused on how deal with external distractions, such as
> security.
>
I thought "mental toughness" was something that's part of your make up from
a young age, or maybe something you get in your teens. I dunno, to be
honest. I do know that although I'm paid (and ride) a hell of a lot less
than Jan and I'm not a pro cyclist, I still have no problems maintaining my
weight at a reasonable level for cycling. Of course I'm not the only one.

I guess the funny thing is that you have to be mentally tough to ride a
three week grand tour, not to mention finish first or second in it. You also
have to have the discipline to train yourself to be ready at that level. So
why is it so hard to keep your weight down?

OK, I'd better not write him off yet as he has a good track record in the
Tour. But Ullrich was in better shape and seemed to be better mentally with
the Coast/Bianchi chaos last year than he is with the old crowd in Telekom
this year.

Jeff

h squared

TM wrote:
>
>
> I was trying to lift it out of the LA/Jan conflict and talk about mental
> toughness in general, but like you imply, this is difficult at best.

lol! that's what i was trying to do too. i'm sorry, i really didn't
understand what you were saying in your last post. i asked my boyfriend
to help, but he wasn't sure either. thanks for explaining.

heather

h squared

Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> "h squared" <peckledoggyremovetoreply@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:408A85EF.4B3B3AEE@hotmail.com...
> >
> > if it's not interesting to you, that's ok. there's never a lot of stuff
> > on this group on how to get mentally tougher so i figure people don't
> > want to talk about it.
> >
>
> How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there were only a
> couple of instances where a sports psychologist was brought in to work with
> us. Most of that focused on how deal with external distractions, such as
> security.

i don't know how trainable it is. if that's all you got on the us team,
maybe not much at all (assuming they knew what the heck they were
doing). but i would think at least recognizing one's weakness/es would
help somewhat.

> On my own, I met with a sports psych., but it was for improving focus and
> motivation. I don't consider that to be the same as mental toughness,
> though.
>
> First, we would need to define mental toughness.

that's true. i might include focus and motivation in the definition, but
that wouldn't be the entirety. i'm not actually sure how i would define
it.

i thought the following was interesting, but i don't really know that
much about the subject so don't hurt me if it's wrong.
http://wings.avkids.com/Tennis/Features/loehr-01.html

-There is a link between mental and physical performance. "Emotions
cause biochemical changes in your body. The chemistry of fear causes
muscles to tighten, when what you need to achieve peak performance is
relaxed muscles." But choking is a normal human response, everyone is
afraid sometime. What's important is to learn how to deal with fear.
Coping with fear head-on demonstrates mental strength, while tanking and
anger are two inappropriate methods of dealing with fear.

"Mentally tough athletes have a different response to stress. They are
challenged and can mobilize all their talents in a positive way that
creates enjoyment and fun."-

hh

Robert Chung

Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there were only a
> couple of instances where a sports psychologist was brought in to work
> with us.

I suspect that there's some selection bias in that situation. One probably
doesn't get onto the US national team unless there is already at least a
fair amount of mental toughness. The question is whether "a fair amount"
is enough to make it to the top rung.

I think that it can also be the case that getting to the top rung is
easier than staying on the top rung.

Stewart Fleming

Carl Sundquist wrote:


> How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there were only a
> couple of instances where a sports psychologist was brought in to work with
> us. Most of that focused on how deal with external distractions, such as
> security.

A Sports Psych guru (aka "Mind Giant") is/was a semi-permanent feature
on the Australian men's hockey team the last few years.

Carl Sundquist

"h squared" <peckledoggyremovetoreply@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> -There is a link between mental and physical performance. "Emotions
> cause biochemical changes in your body. The chemistry of fear causes
> muscles to tighten, when what you need to achieve peak performance is
> relaxed muscles."

I can think of a few fight-or-flight moments where I established new
personal records.

Tim Mullin

"Jeff Jones" <jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com> wrote in
news:408aa489$0$10896$a0ced6e1@news.skynet.be:

> OK, I'd better not write him off yet as he has a good track record in
> the Tour. But Ullrich was in better shape and seemed to be better
> mentally with the Coast/Bianchi chaos last year than he is with the
> old crowd in Telekom this year.

Perhaps the difference is that Ullrich is looking for results beyond the
Tour? Armstrong can afford to be at peak form earlier, because after the
TdF, his season is over. IIRC, Ullrich has stated a desire to target the
Olympics and Worlds as well. With those additional goals in mind, perhaps
he's not that far off schedule?

Just thinking out loud here....

Tim Mullin

"Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox-internet.com> wrote in
news:108l6srh5eetqcb@corp.supernews.com:

> Most of that focused on how deal with external
> distractions, such as security.

Does having once dropped out of a race to check out a really good yard sale
along the course qualify as a lack of focus?

Carl Sundquist

"Tim Mullin" <tvphotog@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94D5C913E254Btvphotogearthlinknet@207.69.154.202...
> "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox-internet.com> wrote in
> news:108l6srh5eetqcb@corp.supernews.com:
>
> > Most of that focused on how deal with external
> > distractions, such as security.
>
> Does having once dropped out of a race to check out a really good yard
sale
> along the course qualify as a lack of focus?

That depends on your priorities.

h squared

Carl Sundquist wrote:
>

> I can think of a few fight-or-flight moments where I established new
> personal records.


what, like that time on the recumbent when you saw some "normal" bike
riders that you knew and were worried they would recognize you if they
caught up to you? (well yeah, a dumb remark, but you should have
provided more details in your post if you didn't want me to write that...)

also that same article says that anger is a poor way to respond to fear,
but don't people always say not to make LANCE mad?

heather

Carl Sundquist

"h squared" <peckledoggyremovetoreply@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:408B16AA.97913321@hotmail.com...
>
>
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
> >
>
> > I can think of a few fight-or-flight moments where I established new
> > personal records.
>
>
> what, like that time on the recumbent when you saw some "normal" bike
> riders that you knew and were worried they would recognize you if they
> caught up to you?

Even if they had caught up, they would have had a hard time seeing who it
was.

http://www.lightningbikes.com/racing1.htm