Black pro riders?

Ryan Cousineau

In article <260420042121424273%luca@ca.inter.net>,
Luke <luca@ca.inter.net> wrote:

> In article <rcousine-8DCF49.22451525042004@morgoth.sfu.ca>, Ryan
> Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
>
> > There are obvious cultural reasons for these racial disparities, like
> > the fact that there aren't that many blacks in cycling-mad Europe, and
> > aside from Major Taylor, there aren't a lot of black role models in
> > cycling.
>
> I find this emphasis on "role models" to be inflated. Was there an
> infux of hockey playing kids of Polish descent following Gretzky's
> stellar career? Will Pantani's ignominous demise result in legions of
> Italians deserting cycling? Or did OJ Simpson's fall from grace
> discourage American blacks from aspiring to careers in football?

Well no, but Gretzky was a product of a very supportive (Canadian)
culture in which to become a hockey player, not to mention having access
to a backyard rink, a tradition in the considerable swaths of Canada
that get cold enough to support such a thing (Lotusland, where I live,
not so much). And you're talking about players who were really ones of
many, culturally speaking. Gretzky yes, but also Stan Makita, and
legions of other players of Ukranian, Polish, and whatever non-British
Isles descent made up so much of the prarie and rural Ontario settlers
for so long, and then made up the rank and file of Canadian hockey
players.

> Having the means to participate in a sport - both physically and
> culturally - by culturally I mean how the greater community expresses
> itself through a particular sport , how highly it's particpants are
> esteemed, supported, etc... as well encouragement to engage at the
> local level: These play a more prominent role than those abstractions
> of the media age; 'role models'

That's true. I agree with this emphasis: growing up in a neighbourhood
that plays a lot of hockey, regardless of "role model" or racial
considerations, is a big predictor of what sport kids will try out.

> > Also, basketball has a place in Afro-American culture that
> > rivals the place of hockey in Canadian culture (as sport which, weirdly
> > enough, has a surprising (albeit small) number of black or partly black
> > players, including notables like Grant Fuhr and Jarome frigging Iginla,
> > who just about singlehandedly knocked my beloved Canucks out of the
> > playoffs with his performance as best player on the Calgary Flames (he's
> > a local boy there, having been raised in Alberta).
>
> I'd like to add economic reasons also. Enrolling and underwriting a
> child's participation in organized hockey to the point where a level of
> skill (if possible) is acquired that enables entry into the big leagues
> involves MAJOR expenses in time, money and effort. If I remember
> correctly, wasn't Grant Fuhr's father a doctor? Notwithstanding the
> racial obstacles (overt and otherwise) for a black fellow to make into
> yesteryear's NHL - see Willie O'Ree - today, I believe economics are
> the prime hurdle of aspiring big leaguers - or rather their parents.
> This regardless of lineage.

Yes, I'll agree with economics, too. I don't know Fuhr's history, but
clearly his family was prosperous enough to let him play hockey. Iginla
is the son of a prominent Edmonton lawyer, but it should be said that
Jarome's father arrived in Canada at age 18, worked his way through law
school, and generally did the Horatio Alger story in one rather
fast-moving generation:

http://colbycosh.com/old/hockey04.html#rocm
http://espn.go.com/nhl/columns/frei_terry/1397030.html

His son basically had a typical hockey-mad Edmonton upbringing, and
happened to be incredibly talented.

> luke
> P.S. The Leafs could use a forward like Jarome. Philly is rolling over
> them.

I believe there are 29 teams besides Calgary that could use a forward
like Jarome. I don't see a lot of teams saying, "no, he wouldn't fit
into our system." I'm thinking massive game-breaking goal-scoring talent
and an easygoing demeanor work well on most teams .

Back to cycling:

In general, the North American culture of cycling is relatively small,
the junior leagues are not very strong in most parts of the country, and
the equipment is expensive, making the sport into an aerobically
demanding, smelly (or is that just me?) version of golf, or an
expensively-equipped version of long-distance running. So really, there
isn't the raw exposure to racing.

I'm probably classic proof of that: I sorta liked riding my bike as a
kid, and even rode a fair distance (10 km or so, with a serious hill on
the way) to high school on a regular basis, but it wasn't like there was
a group of kid cyclists prominently showing me what could be done if I
rode really hard, or joined the school team, or whatever. So I played
soccer badly for several years, played baseball very badly for a year,
nursed bad knees, a bad back, and a family-encouraged devotion to clumsy
recreational water-skiing through my teenage years, and kept my mountain
bike around for very rare usage.

And then I got on my bike three years ago, and found out that I was
remarkably fast for someone who just rode to work and back. Had I
discovered this in high school, or had a local team to look up to, or
basically any exposure to organized bike racing, I might have become a
half-decent racer by now, maybe a fast Cat 3 or a slow Cat 2. Instead,
it took me until my 30th year to hit a normal BMI, and now I'm going to
spend a year getting faster and work my way from Cat 5 to Cat 4. It's my
parents' fault! .

Ahem.

I suspect that in large parts of Western Europe, I would have figured
out fast that I was no good at footy, skipped the embarrassing baseball
interlude altogether, and gone to watch the local bike races during the
Spring and Summer. And maybe tried to ride my bike as fast as I could,
and pretty soon realize I was outracing all the kids on my block, and
then I would have known it was time to work a paper route (or whatever
it is little French kids do to pay for their bikes) so I could join the
local cadet league.

Pardon my self-indulgent alternate-history fantasies here. The point is
that you're quite right, most athletes come from places that are
hotspots for their particular sport because that's a good indicator that
you're going to test your ability in that sport (why are so great
runners Kenyan? Because everybody in Kenya runs long distances. See
Hockey, Canadians).

Why aren't there many fast black cyclists? Because there aren't many
cycling hotspots on the globe with significant black populations. See
also Cricketers, South American.

-RjC.
--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Ryan Cousineau

In article <408D9518.C297543F@dentaltwins.com>,
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS <bornfeldmung@dentaltwins.com> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > In article <408D5BB0.37B0D12D@dentaltwins.com>,
> > Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS <bornfeldmung@dentaltwins.com> wrote:

> > > Correct me if I'm wrong. I recall Tiger being asked this, and his
> > > response
> > > is that he feels he is African-American. I don't know what this says
> > > about
> > > his
> > > relationship to his mother.
> >
> > It says that you are either misremembering or have not heard his
> > once-and-never-again statement on his race:
> >
> > http://www.nationalreview.com/nordl...inger090602.asp
>
> It may also mean I hear one of his other "once and never again
> statements".
> I am willing to accept his public statements. I think he bears no
> responsibility to make them.
> I don't know that I would have made the choices he has in this regard,
> but they are his to make.

I think a lot of it has to do with the dual problem Woods has: he
doesn't want to answer a lot of questions about his race, and when he
first became a famous golfer he got asked a lot of questions about his
race, largely because it was an easy (lazy?) hook on which to hang a
Tiger story ("he's a black golfer! That's like being a white boxer!
Well, at least, we think he's black. Well he's sorta black. He meets the
one-drop criteria, so he must be black right? So what if he's part
Scottish. Cablinasian? What the hell is that?").

In our lifetimes there may well be an elite cyclist who becomes
Sports-Illustrated-famous and I'm sure for the first several years of
his (or her) career, every story about him will reference Major Taylor,
racial identity, and the athlete's groundbreaking status. Just like
everybody should be proud that Lance Armstrong broke the Texan barrier,
or the single-parent barrier, or the Republican cyclist barrier, or
whatever.

Oh right, it's the cancer-survivor barrier. Actually, that is an
interesting story, since cancer usually kills and weakens athletes
instead of just making them more determined and aggressive. As obstacles
go, that's a real one.

Well, I'm making less sense than usual, so I'll stop now.
--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Howard Kveck

In article <etdr80drdilqe83i6p0siftnpi72gkb9su@4ax.com>,
elzinator <callofthewest@nospam.net> wrote:

> For more information on genes and populations, folks should read Luigi
> Luca Cavalli-Sforza. He's pioneered the field in many ways.

As an aside, the person generally credited with the creation of the
concept of 'race' is Carl Linnaeus, who created the taxonomic system used
to describe plants and animals. But his proposal was given a significant
tweak by Johann Friedrich Blumenbach:
"By moving from the Linnaean four-race system to his own five-race
scheme, Blumenbach radically changed the geometry of human order from a
geographically based model without explicit ranking to a hierarchy of
worth, oddly based upon perceived beauty, and fanning out in two directions
from a Caucasian ideal."
(From Stephen Jay Gould:
<http://www.greeninformation.com/The%20Geometer%20of%20Race.htm>)

It is interesting to consider what differences determine what is a
species, in taxonomic terms. For example, domesticated dogs are all one
species; note the differences between an Irish Wolfhound and a Chihuahua.
Then look at the differences between the various subspecies of Asian Water
Monitors: huge differences vs. fairly small differences.

--
tanx,
Howard

Q: Can we call it a quagmire yet?

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Ryan Cousineau

In article <iShjc.26038$0u6.4648453@attbi_s03>,
"Shayne Wissler" <thalesNOSPAM000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Kurt" <brainofkgs1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:e1d6e71a.0404261556.6467ad2d@posting.google.com...
>
> > The ONLY reason there aren't many black pros is cultural.
>
> True. I spoke imprecisely. Regardless of whether there's a race-specific
> difference that limits cycling ability on the average (and who knows,
> perhaps blacks would be better than whites on average if they cared for the
> sport), it's not going to be enough to keep someone from being a pro racer
> if they want to be one.
>
> None of this speculation on average genetics really matters anyway, because
> whatever the genetic differences are on average, individual differences are
> highly variable--even if on average blacks are better at basketball, it
> doesn't mean you can't be white and be the best in the world.

Yes and no, but consider the uncontroversial and interesting case of
female athletes.

Elite female cyclists are very, very fast. Take for example Cristina
Begy, World Champion 24-hour mountain biker. At the 2003 24 Hours of
Adrenalin, she not only won the race, she would have finished 10th in
the men's race. Take me, for example. I may be a man, but there are
many, many local female cyclists who could metaphorically hand me my ass
in a road race of any description.

But for all that, the very best women aren't even close to the very best
men, performance-wise. Begy did 18 laps in less than 24 hours. Men's
winner Eatough did 22 laps in almost the same time. That isn't because
there's a cultural difference, since it's repeated in every sport where
power, strength, or endurance matter. Serena and Venus Williams learned
this to their chagrin in exhibition sets against 203rd-best man in the
world Karsten Braasch:

http://www.tennis-x.com/story/2004-01-24/c.php

6-1 versus Serena, 6-2 versus Venus. Maybe he did worse against Venus
because he's a doubles specialist, and by the end of the second set his
smoking habit was probably catching up to him.

Now, back to racial physiological differences. The bell curves of
athletic performance for any racial groups you care to pair will surely
differ far, far less than male-female divisions. In other words, Yao
Ming can jump, and someday, if he works really hard, a white man could
be good at table tennis (could happen: there's a Canadian who is a
world-class squash player). But there are just enough that, for example,
there are a few genetic anomalies that hew quite closely to certain
racial groups. The classic example is Africans, Arabs, and
Mediterraneans and sickle-cell anemia, but less mentioned is their
concommitant resistance to malaria:

http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0626011.htm

Of course, that this genetic mutation favors three "races" that we think
of as being completely different suggest that phenotypes don't tell us
as much about geneotypes as most people think; women really are quite
different from men; and the women are right: men are all alike.

Oh, and I just thought of another good example of phenotypes and
cultural issues in sport: nobody in their right mind thinks the Japanese
have a monopoly on high BMI, flexibility, or explosive fast-twitch leg
power. And yet almost every sumo wrestler in the world is Japanese. And
yet, as a counterexample, there have been some very, very successful
non-Japanese wrestlers. And all seem to find the Japanese culture one of
the hardest barriers to overcome in becoming a sumo wrestler.

ObBike: someday soon a forward-looking bike racing impresario is going
to take a cartload of old bikes to Kenya, give them away to as many fast
runners as he can find, do a year or so of training, and take the
individual time-trial championships by storm. South Africa already has a
significant cycling culture. Maybe they will be the nucleus of a boom in
African cycling.

What was the question?

--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Benjamin Weiner

Shayne Wissler <thalesNOSPAM000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Benjamin Weiner" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
> > Shayne Wissler <thalesNOSPAM000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Whatever the case may be for cycling, that "population geneticist" does not
> > > know everything about physiology and genetics. And when he says that
> > > Americans of African descent are closer genetically to Americans of European
> > > descent than they are to Africans we have good reason to question his
> > > understanding of genetics and/or statistics.

> > Why do we have reason to question it?

> To point out what is painfully obvious to everyone except you and this
> "population geneticist": Neither geographical location nor citizenship is
> not a determinant of genetic material.

English, please?


You implicitly made a claim. I'm just asking for a reference.

Luke

<snip>

In article <rcousine-9E0A51.19523626042004@morgoth.sfu.ca>, Ryan
Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:

>
> I believe there are 29 teams besides Calgary that could use a forward
> like Jarome. I don't see a lot of teams saying, "no, he wouldn't fit
> into our system." I'm thinking massive game-breaking goal-scoring talent
> and an easygoing demeanor work well on most teams .
>
> Back to cycling:
>
> In general, the North American culture of cycling is relatively small,
> the junior leagues are not very strong in most parts of the country, and
> the equipment is expensive, making the sport into an aerobically
> demanding, smelly (or is that just me?) version of golf,

lol

> or an
> expensively-equipped version of long-distance running. So really, there
> isn't the raw exposure to racing.
>
> I'm probably classic proof of that: I sorta liked riding my bike as a
> kid, and even rode a fair distance (10 km or so, with a serious hill on
> the way) to high school on a regular basis, but it wasn't like there was
> a group of kid cyclists prominently showing me what could be done if I
> rode really hard, or joined the school team, or whatever. So I played
> soccer badly for several years, played baseball very badly for a year,
> nursed bad knees, a bad back, and a family-encouraged devotion to clumsy
> recreational water-skiing through my teenage years, and kept my mountain
> bike around for very rare usage.
>
> And then I got on my bike three years ago, and found out that I was
> remarkably fast for someone who just rode to work and back. Had I
> discovered this in high school, or had a local team to look up to, or
> basically any exposure to organized bike racing, I might have become a
> half-decent racer by now, maybe a fast Cat 3 or a slow Cat 2. Instead,
> it took me until my 30th year to hit a normal BMI, and now I'm going to
> spend a year getting faster and work my way from Cat 5 to Cat 4. It's my
> parents' fault! .
>
> Ahem.
>
> I suspect that in large parts of Western Europe, I would have figured
> out fast that I was no good at footy, skipped the embarrassing baseball
> interlude altogether, and gone to watch the local bike races during the
> Spring and Summer. And maybe tried to ride my bike as fast as I could,
> and pretty soon realize I was outracing all the kids on my block, and
> then I would have known it was time to work a paper route (or whatever
> it is little French kids do to pay for their bikes) so I could join the
> local cadet league.
>
> Pardon my self-indulgent alternate-history fantasies here. The point is
> that you're quite right, most athletes come from places that are
> hotspots for their particular sport because that's a good indicator that
> you're going to test your ability in that sport (why are so great
> runners Kenyan? Because everybody in Kenya runs long distances. See
> Hockey, Canadians).
>

True. I remember Steve Bauer and Olympic medallist Curt Harnett. Their
exploits were to inspire a generation of budding Canadian Armstrongs.
Well the seeds didn't germinate. A local fellow, Michael Barry Jr.
(USPS), is now competing in Europe and elsewhere but (if I read his
history correctly) his love of cycling - and the means to pursue it -
stemmed from the cultural and sporting sensibilities of his father; a
British emigrant that operated a succession of bicycle shops in Toronto
and now builds custom frames <http://www.bikespecialties.com/>.

Your story is similar to mine in many respects and to a large degree
reveals why the sport is not as popular in North America (in my
estimation) as it should be. The bicycle in North America is a mode of
conveyance that's afforded a status that's only slightly superior to
that of a toy.

There's a symbiosis between the popularity and perception of a
recreational or utilitarian activity and it's organization and
presentation as a 'professional' pursuit. In North America, the bicycle
is just not taken seriously. Until that changes, pro bicycle sports
will languish.


> Why aren't there many fast black cyclists? Because there aren't many
> cycling hotspots on the globe with significant black populations. See
> also Cricketers, South American.
>
> -RjC.
> --

And China as well. More bicycles there than anywhere. But I suppose the
absence of Chinese nationals in the Pro Peleton is a matter for another
thread...

Just a last observation. Frequently in Toronto I pass by the housing
project of "Regent Park." On it's southern periphery is an outdoor ice
rink. It's a winter sight in Canada that's taken for granted: Kids
playing hockey. But in this case, the number of rosy cheeked white
complexions among those swinging lumber constitute a minority. Most of
the hackers trace their lineage to the Indian subcontinent, the
Caribbean and the middle east.

But, of course, most don the obligatory Leaf jerseys; Sundin 13, Domi
28, Belfour 20 etc.. They don't care that Matts is a Swede, Domi's
parents originated from Albania or that Belfour's from Manitoba. They
just want to play.


luke

DZ

elzinator <callofthewest@nospam.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:28:03 +0000, Helgi Briem wrote:
>>Yes, people vary a lot genetically. They are probably the
>>most genetically heterogeneous species of animal. They
>>can not be divided into 'races' in any non-subjective way
>>because the variation is continuous and not discrete.
>>About 85% of the variation is within Africa anyway, since
>>humans originated there and only small sub-groups
>>migrated out of Africa.
>
> Yes, you are right. Most people don't realize that the main genetic
> differences are between people, not between populations, or 'races.'
> Genetic differences between the latter are mostly superficial and
> attributable to their environmental conditions, which determines their
> phenotype, even though responses may differ.

Genetic differences as studied in human population genetics are
measured from almost 100% neutral variations. The extent of these
differences and the between/within population ratio is a simple
reflection of effective population sizes and history, and has almost
nothing to do with anything on the level of phenotype.

Races can well be social construct but you cannot argue for or against
it by appealing to the extent of neutral variability ("neutral" as in
Motoo Kimura). Cichlids is one example of very unusual between/within
species variability distribution. One could argue that two randomly
chosen individuals from two different species are more similar than
two random individuals from the same species.

DZ

> But talking about 'race' and 'ethnic groups' prompts emotive responses
> more than objective consideration. 'Race' is a human construct that
> allow us to categorize differences because some of these differences
> appear in certain subpopulations. It provides clear boxes to put
> people in. But it does not predicate or justify differential
> treatment.
>
> For more information on genes and populations, folks should read Luigi
> Luca Cavalli-Sforza. He's pioneered the field in many ways.
>
>
> Bioinformatics:
> "What is a sheep; only millions of little bits of sheepness
> whirling around and doing intricate convolutions inside the
> sheep? What else is it but that?"
> -Flann O'Brien, "The Third Policeman"

Ryan Cousineau

In article <270420040335536925%luca@ca.inter.net>,
Luke <luca@ca.inter.net> wrote:

> <snip>
>
> In article <rcousine-9E0A51.19523626042004@morgoth.sfu.ca>, Ryan
> Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> > I believe there are 29 teams besides Calgary that could use a forward
> > like Jarome. I don't see a lot of teams saying, "no, he wouldn't fit
> > into our system." I'm thinking massive game-breaking goal-scoring talent
> > and an easygoing demeanor work well on most teams .
> >
> > Back to cycling:
> >
> > In general, the North American culture of cycling is relatively small,
> > the junior leagues are not very strong in most parts of the country, and
> > the equipment is expensive, making the sport into an aerobically
> > demanding, smelly (or is that just me?) version of golf,
>
> lol
>
> > or an
> > expensively-equipped version of long-distance running. So really, there
> > isn't the raw exposure to racing.
> >
> > I'm probably classic proof of that: I sorta liked riding my bike as a
> > kid, and even rode a fair distance (10 km or so, with a serious hill on
> > the way) to high school on a regular basis, but it wasn't like there was
> > a group of kid cyclists prominently showing me what could be done if I
> > rode really hard, or joined the school team, or whatever. So I played
> > soccer badly for several years, played baseball very badly for a year,
> > nursed bad knees, a bad back, and a family-encouraged devotion to clumsy
> > recreational water-skiing through my teenage years, and kept my mountain
> > bike around for very rare usage.
> >
> > And then I got on my bike three years ago, and found out that I was
> > remarkably fast for someone who just rode to work and back. Had I
> > discovered this in high school, or had a local team to look up to, or
> > basically any exposure to organized bike racing, I might have become a
> > half-decent racer by now, maybe a fast Cat 3 or a slow Cat 2. Instead,
> > it took me until my 30th year to hit a normal BMI, and now I'm going to
> > spend a year getting faster and work my way from Cat 5 to Cat 4. It's my
> > parents' fault! .
> >
> > Ahem.
> >
> > I suspect that in large parts of Western Europe, I would have figured
> > out fast that I was no good at footy, skipped the embarrassing baseball
> > interlude altogether, and gone to watch the local bike races during the
> > Spring and Summer. And maybe tried to ride my bike as fast as I could,
> > and pretty soon realize I was outracing all the kids on my block, and
> > then I would have known it was time to work a paper route (or whatever
> > it is little French kids do to pay for their bikes) so I could join the
> > local cadet league.
> >
> > Pardon my self-indulgent alternate-history fantasies here. The point is
> > that you're quite right, most athletes come from places that are
> > hotspots for their particular sport because that's a good indicator that
> > you're going to test your ability in that sport (why are so great
> > runners Kenyan? Because everybody in Kenya runs long distances. See
> > Hockey, Canadians).
> >
>
> True. I remember Steve Bauer and Olympic medallist Curt Harnett. Their
> exploits were to inspire a generation of budding Canadian Armstrongs.
> Well the seeds didn't germinate. A local fellow, Michael Barry Jr.
> (USPS), is now competing in Europe and elsewhere but

But, but, grassroots efforts starting with kids may work wonders.
Locally, there is a pretty big BMX racing scene and a very lively high
school mountain-bike racing league. Those mountain biking high-schoolers
don't realize it, but they're doing perfect preparation not only for XC
racing but also to become roadies. And since a lot of these high school
programs are organized by roadie parents, they then tell the kids "hey,
you should get involved with dEVo" (or other young-rider programs).
Result: a pretty active young-racer culture in Vancouver.

> Your story is similar to mine in many respects and to a large degree
> reveals why the sport is not as popular in North America (in my
> estimation) as it should be. The bicycle in North America is a mode of
> conveyance that's afforded a status that's only slightly superior to
> that of a toy.

> And China as well. More bicycles there than anywhere. But I suppose the
> absence of Chinese nationals in the Pro Peleton is a matter for another
> thread...

It's quite simple: in China, the bike is transportation, and not
sporting equipment. Same goes for Taiwan. Both countries look down on
bikes as a sort of developing-nation transition to cars, unlike the
Netherlands or Japan, where they are still pretty standard middle-class
transportation, even for car-owners. One of the most impressive sights
on my short Sunday-morning tour of Amsterdam was the huge numbers of
bike racks outside the train stations. They were empty for the weekend,
but were quite necessary for the commuting cyclists during the week.

> Just a last observation. Frequently in Toronto I pass by the housing
> project of "Regent Park." On it's southern periphery is an outdoor ice
> rink. It's a winter sight in Canada that's taken for granted: Kids
> playing hockey. But in this case, the number of rosy cheeked white
> complexions among those swinging lumber constitute a minority. Most of
> the hackers trace their lineage to the Indian subcontinent, the
> Caribbean and the middle east.
>
> But, of course, most don the obligatory Leaf jerseys; Sundin 13, Domi
> 28, Belfour 20 etc.. They don't care that Matts is a Swede, Domi's
> parents originated from Albania or that Belfour's from Manitoba. They
> just want to play.

Hee hee. As Colby Cosh put it in one of his articles (I'm paraphrasing
from memory), Canadians are rather color-blind when it comes to kids
with good puck-handling skills and a wicked shot. And clearly, the local
immigrants in your area are assimilating nicely .

--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Shayne Wissler

"Benjamin Weiner" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
news:408dcec2$1@darkstar...
> Shayne Wissler <thalesNOSPAM000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "Benjamin Weiner" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
> > > Shayne Wissler <thalesNOSPAM000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Whatever the case may be for cycling, that "population geneticist"
does not
> > > > know everything about physiology and genetics. And when he says that
> > > > Americans of African descent are closer genetically to Americans of
European
> > > > descent than they are to Africans we have good reason to question
his
> > > > understanding of genetics and/or statistics.
>
> > > Why do we have reason to question it?
>
> > To point out what is painfully obvious to everyone except you and this
> > "population geneticist": Neither geographical location nor citizenship
is
> > not a determinant of genetic material.
>
> English, please?

You don't look like your mommy and daddy because you grew up in their house.

Proton Soup

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:38:17 GMT, DZ <n3t2s11nk@n23c2.r3r95.c0m>
wrote:

>elzinator <callofthewest@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:28:03 +0000, Helgi Briem wrote:
>>>Yes, people vary a lot genetically. They are probably the
>>>most genetically heterogeneous species of animal. They
>>>can not be divided into 'races' in any non-subjective way
>>>because the variation is continuous and not discrete.
>>>About 85% of the variation is within Africa anyway, since
>>>humans originated there and only small sub-groups
>>>migrated out of Africa.
>>
>> Yes, you are right. Most people don't realize that the main genetic
>> differences are between people, not between populations, or 'races.'
>> Genetic differences between the latter are mostly superficial and
>> attributable to their environmental conditions, which determines their
>> phenotype, even though responses may differ.
>
>Genetic differences as studied in human population genetics are
>measured from almost 100% neutral variations. The extent of these
>differences and the between/within population ratio is a simple
>reflection of effective population sizes and history, and has almost
>nothing to do with anything on the level of phenotype.
>
>Races can well be social construct but you cannot argue for or against
>it by appealing to the extent of neutral variability ("neutral" as in
>Motoo Kimura). Cichlids is one example of very unusual between/within
>species variability distribution. One could argue that two randomly
>chosen individuals from two different species are more similar than
>two random individuals from the same species.

I'm calling bullshit on this. Perhaps some "species" are very close,
but there's quite a bit of variability in cichlids. Most are
aggressive, but there are some that can even be kept in a community
tank. Differences in physical characteristics can be striking as
well. I'm getting the impression that geneticists must really be
dropping the ball somewhere in how genetic %-similarity is measured.

Proton Soup

>DZ
>
>> But talking about 'race' and 'ethnic groups' prompts emotive responses
>> more than objective consideration. 'Race' is a human construct that
>> allow us to categorize differences because some of these differences
>> appear in certain subpopulations. It provides clear boxes to put
>> people in. But it does not predicate or justify differential
>> treatment.
>>
>> For more information on genes and populations, folks should read Luigi
>> Luca Cavalli-Sforza. He's pioneered the field in many ways.
>>
>>
>> Bioinformatics:
>> "What is a sheep; only millions of little bits of sheepness
>> whirling around and doing intricate convolutions inside the
>> sheep? What else is it but that?"
>> -Flann O'Brien, "The Third Policeman"

DZ

Proton Soup <> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 14:38:17 GMT, DZ <n3t2s11nk@n23c2.r3r95.c0m> wrote:
>>Genetic differences as studied in human population genetics are
>>measured from almost 100% neutral variations. The extent of these
>>differences and the between/within population ratio is a simple
>>reflection of effective population sizes and history, and has almost
>>nothing to do with anything on the level of phenotype.
>>
>>Races can well be social construct but you cannot argue for or against
>>it by appealing to the extent of neutral variability ("neutral" as in
>>Motoo Kimura). Cichlids is one example of very unusual between/within
>>species variability distribution. One could argue that two randomly
>>chosen individuals from two different species are more similar than
>>two random individuals from the same species.
>
> I'm calling bullshit on this. Perhaps some "species" are very close,
> but there's quite a bit of variability in cichlids. Most are
> aggressive, but there are some that can even be kept in a community
> tank.

It is *neutral* variability on the DNA level that is similar. Of
course even a single mutation can have drastic effect on
appearance. Nevertheless, genome variation averaged across many
polymorphisms (or as measured by a bunch of randomly picked ones) is
not changed by that.

> Differences in physical characteristics can be striking as
> well. I'm getting the impression that geneticists must really be
> dropping the ball somewhere in how genetic %-similarity is measured.

Not so. This variation is very useful for studying population
characteristics and history. You seem to have the impression that all
of the geneticists are those cute people in white coats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutra...cular_evolution

DZ

Amit

Luke <luca@ca.inter.net> wrote in message news:<270420040335536925%
>
> True. I remember Steve Bauer and Olympic medallist Curt Harnett. Their
> exploits were to inspire a generation of budding Canadian Armstrongs.
> Well the seeds didn't germinate.

The local fields were very large at that time (early 90s). One might
argue triathlon and mtn. bike split the sport. At the time both of
those were considered off-shoots of road cycling.

> A local fellow, Michael Barry Jr.
> (USPS), is now competing in Europe and elsewhere but (if I read his
> history correctly) his love of cycling - and the means to pursue it -
> stemmed from the cultural and sporting sensibilities of his father; a
> British emigrant that operated a succession of bicycle shops in Toronto
> and now builds custom frames <http://www.bikespecialties.com/>.
>

This year the participation numbers are up quite a bit in Ontario. I
don't know what the reason is. The profile of Lance Armstrong ? the
Worlds ? Stagnation in the mtn. bike scene ?

Development at the top levels needs a talent pool. Mtn. bike is still
popular and a lot of the young road talent is coming (and will come)
from that scene. Plus, in cycling, elites can develop at a later age.
Wohlberg for example rode Sr 3 (ie. not an elite junior).

> > Why aren't there many fast black cyclists? Because there aren't many
> > cycling hotspots on the globe with significant black populations. See
> > also Cricketers, South American.
> >

> Just a last observation. Frequently in Toronto I pass by the housing
> project of "Regent Park." On it's southern periphery is an outdoor ice
> rink. It's a winter sight in Canada that's taken for granted: Kids
> playing hockey. But in this case, the number of rosy cheeked white
> complexions among those swinging lumber constitute a minority. Most of
> the hackers trace their lineage to the Indian subcontinent, the
> Caribbean and the middle east.
>

Except in Toronto there is a large west-indian cycling community that
brought over the sporting culture from the islands. Many of them are
the older generation though.

I think the biggest problem facing the growth of the sport is the
ability to put on accessible (cost, location) events.

-Amit

TM

"Amit" <amit@physics.utoronto.ca> wrote in message
news:df5bdaa0.0404270926.13b30ac8@posting.google.com...
> I think the biggest problem facing the growth of the sport is the
> ability to put on accessible (cost, location) events.
>
I'd back it up one step further. I have noticed that biking seems to exist
in pockets where there is comfortable access to the sport by novices. Areas
with rail trails, bike lanes, novice mtb trails always seem to have clubs
where places without those facilities do not.

Training is 90% of the sport. Take away a place to train and the reason for
owning a bike disappears for you whether you're black, white, red or orange.

Cathar

"erik saunders" <eriksaun@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040426123909.13709.00000397@mb-m21.aol.com...
> calling the sky blue and the grass green may not be subjective but it is a
> huge
> generalization in the same way that we tend to categorize race... grass
> has
> many shades of green and can also be brown, purple or red or blue if you
> want
> to get really specific... neither is the sky always blue...
>
> the grass and sky point is really interesting... we people are all GRASS
> or all
> SKY but not both... from a scientific point of view race is totally made
> up...
> for the reasons already stated earlier... and to some extent we all go
> along
> with it... that is where the power is - in the perception of race... we
> can
> easily generalize that the grass is green and that the sky is blue seeing
> the
> variations of those colors as unimportant, but it seems much harder to do
> with
> people whose differences are non-existent when compared to the gulf
> between
> grass and sky... race is almost like religion, it is bordering on being
> faith-based... if you believe a thing then that makes it true even if it
> is
> irrational...
>
> i am only black because i say so and people seem to agree, not because i
> am so
> different genticly that i must be classified in some other way from so
> called
> "white" people...

The true test of race is if it can be determined by an examination of skull
and skeletal remains.

Elementary my dear Watson!

Cathar