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Re: published helmet research - not troll

 
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Old 06-07.-2004, 05:28 AM   #466
Just zis Guy, you know?
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Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

On 05 Jul 2004 15:56:41 EDT, Richard Adams <ackthpt@concentric.net>
wrote in message <cccbpp$9at@dispatch.concentric.net>:

>There's some great picture of Hincapie with an utterly smashed helmet in
>the TdF (IIRC) a few years back. He'd probably be in a wheelchair
>without it, considering the point of impact.


Or not, given the amount of energy polystyrene foam absorbs in brittle
failure (i.e. very little).

I'd put that down to the resilience of the Mk. 1 skull.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
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Old 06-07.-2004, 06:28 AM   #467
Bill Z.
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Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> writes:

> On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:37:57 GMT, nobody@nospam.pacbell.net (Bill Z.)
> wrote in message <m3isd2e4sn.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net>:
>
> >It is a bit harder to do an endo on a longer bike, but whether it is
> >possible or not on a tandem depends on the position of the center of
> >mass (bike plus rider) relative to where the front wheel contacts the
> >ground).

>
> So you say. But I have never achieved it, and neither havbe any of
> the other people in this thread who have ridden tandems. You have
> apparently never ridden a tandem, solo or otherwise. So you are
> posting from ignorance.


Hey moron, I described what you discover if you do the
computation. Take or review what you'd learn in a freshman physics
course, and you can calculate it too. Whether you skid or flip
depends on just what I described. If it is close, it may depend on the
rider's mass, with lighter riders being less prone to flip than
heavier ones.

You don't have to ride a tandem to do this computation (and I'd expect
you to skid rather than flip if two people are on the tandem.)

Bill

--
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Old 06-07.-2004, 06:31 AM   #468
Bill Z.
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Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:

> Bill Z. wrote:
>
> > "Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> writes:
> >
> >> On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 18:10:17 GMT, nobody@nospam.pacbell.net (Bill Z.)
> >> wrote in message <m3d63beje8.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net>:
> >>
> >> Yes, because the bike is a completely different shape.

> >
> > The shape doesn't matter. All the matters in the position of the
> > center of mass relative to where the front tire touches the ground.

>
> ... and the shape significantly affects the position of the center of mass.


No it doesn't: the predominant thing that affects the position of the
center of mass is the rider (in this case, a single one, sitting at
about the same position relative to the front wheel as on a mountain
or road bike.) The rest of the tandem is a small correction due to
the mass of the frame being far lower than the mass of the cyclist.

With two cyclists on a tandem (the normal case), the center of mass
is much further back.

Bill

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Old 06-07.-2004, 06:42 AM   #469
Bill Z.
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Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> writes:

> On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:47:22 GMT, nobody@nospam.pacbell.net (Bill Z.)
> wrote in message <m3eknqe4cw.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net>:
>
> >The shape doesn't matter. All the matters in the position of the
> >center of mass relative to where the front tire touches the ground.

>
> Correct. So look at it, and then explain why none of the people
> around here who ride tandem (including solo) agree with you. You are
> posting from ignorance, we are posting from experience.


I don't think you really tried it - you posted misleading statements
before, so I don't believe you. Also, if it is marginal (the small
extra mass at the rear is just enough to prevent you from flipping),
then a heavier rider can flip. In fact, you can show that, if the
angle from the cyclist's center of mass to the front wheel is the
same for a tandem as for a road or mountain bike, then for a sufficiently
heavy rider, it is always possible to flip when breaking hard enough.

The extra weight for the second half of the tandem moves the center
of mass back and down slightly, and the shift decreases as the
mass of the cyclist increases.

> When you are in a hole, STOP DIGGING.


Are you stupid enough to think that repeating yourself will somehow
change the laws of physics.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
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Old 06-07.-2004, 06:46 AM   #470
Bill Z.
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> writes:

> On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:09:56 GMT, nobody@nospam.pacbell.net (Bill Z.)
> wrote in message <m3acyee3bc.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net>:
>
> >What you fail to grasp is that I don't give a shit as to what sort
> >of bike you ride. The discussion was about helmets.

>
> What you fail to grasp is that by failing to read and comprehend what
> was written you made an ass of yourself.


Dude, the major "ass" in this thread is you and you alone.
> <DING!> Wrong again. I am not part of any "anti-helmet group" (as far
> as I am aware there is no such animal).


There is such an animal. Krygowski and Kunich are charter members.
Check the archives from 10 years or so ago.

My underlying point was that
> these blanket laws fail to take account of the different types of bike
> and styles of riding - which you went on to prove better than I ever
> could have done.
>


> <url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3132026352d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=38ord0950bott7gni8cqvad8uk1mot93ja%404ax.com>
>
> Wrong again. And in the message to which I replied you used the word
> "you" (meaning me) and made absolutely no stiplulations about the type
> of bike.


I know what I meant far better than you ever possibly could.


> 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University


Well, that sort of nonsense is why I consider you to be in the anti-helmet
camp.

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Old 06-07.-2004, 07:04 AM   #471
Bill Z.
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Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:

> Bill Z. wrote:
>
> > What I find even more curious is that a short, obscure paper written
> > by three guys is the only thing that ever gets mentioned by the
> > anti-helmet camp,

>
> That's because it's pretty much the only statistic quoted by the anti-choice
> camp. Or if it isn't, what other study shows this "85%" figure that I keep
> seeing?
>
> The "anti-helmet" camp, as you call it, also frequently mentions a number
> of other studies, e.g. New Zealand & Australia.


I should have said that it is the only study showing a positive result
for helmet use that they mention.

The New Zealand one did not measure a benefit to helmet use by looking
at injuries, but the study could not track which injured cyclists wore
helmets and which didn't (someone emailed the author and asked about
that, and posted a summary of the response on rec.bicycles.soc.)
Instead they used independent surveys of cyclists that counted the
number who used helmets versus the number who didn't.

Helmet usage went up substantially after New Zealand passed a helmet
law, but this is not the same as "cyclist-miles" for those using
helmets and those who don't. Also, New Zealand has a tiny population,
which limits the accuracy of the results. The study that was on the
Snell site reported a factor of two or three difference in helmet
effectiveness based on how well the helmet fit the rider (including
strap adjustment.) The New Zealand study didn't control for that. It
showed that merely passing a helmet law doesn't help.

--
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Old 06-07.-2004, 07:11 AM   #472
Bill Z.
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> writes:

> On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:04:04 GMT, nobody@nospam.pacbell.net (Bill Z.)
> wrote in message <m3k6xicm8n.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net>:
>
> >> whenever helmet laws are debated the helmet advocates
> >> circulate as fact the TR&T findings that helmets prevent 85% of head
> >> injuries and 88% of brain inhuries, both of which claims are bogus and
> >> even the original authors no longer make them.

>
> >What I find even more curious is that a short, obscure paper written
> >by three guys is the only thing that ever gets mentioned by the
> >anti-helmet camp, treating it as the greatest threat to western
> >civilation since Atilla the Hun. Are they going to blame Osama next?

>
> You are evidently even more ill-informed than Tom makes out.
>
> This is not an "obscure" paper, it is the single most widely quoted
> and influential piece of helmet research there is. I cannot recall a
> subsequent paper or literature review which does not reference it, and
> helmet campaigners almost always quote the 85% / 88% figures when
> arguing for compulsion, presumably because they are so much bigger and
> more impressive than the other studies.


Oh come off it. It gets cited because it was the first paper out
there, and it is customary to cite previous work in an area. If it was
viewed by other researchers as the definitive word on this topic, the
others wouldn't have published anything.

In the scheme of things, though, it *is* obscure. The whole subject
area is obscure. There are who knows how many gizmos out there with
safety implications. This is just one more study of one more gizmo.

Bill

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Old 06-07.-2004, 07:14 AM   #473
Bill Z.
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Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> writes:

> On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 03:00:12 GMT, Joe Riel <joer@k-online.com> wrote
> in message <0v3Gc.30150$Fy.16473@twister.socal.rr.com>:
>
> >"If I lock the front brake, the front wheel will skid.
> >The only time I've gone over the bars was when something got lodged in
> >the front wheel..."

>
> Don't forget the bit about if I hit a car I hit feet-first. Feet
> first only really happens on a recumbent :-)


No imagnation, I take it? To avoid a crash you can brake or turn, and
if you blow it and fall off your bike, you could go in feet first.

> 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University


Repeating it doesn't make it true.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
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Old 06-07.-2004, 07:21 AM   #474
Bill Z.
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Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> writes:

> On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:50:47 GMT, nobody@nospam.pacbell.net (Bill Z.)
> wrote in message <m36592ck1n.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net>:
>
> >And where is the proof of this assertion???? You know, from an
> >impartial, independent source.

>
> You want to be careful about using words like "impartial" and
> "independent" - or don't you know where TR&T get their money from?


We were talking about a claim from a certain Ms. Robinson, not TR&T,
were we not????

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
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Old 06-07.-2004, 07:25 AM   #475
Bill Z.
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Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <outlook.bugs@microsoft.com> writes:

> On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:26:59 GMT, nobody@nospam.pacbell.net (Bill Z.)
> wrote in message <m3eknqcl5c.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net>:
>


> And I can track the visits in depth, the inside pages get many more
> hits than the homepage. But whatever. At least it is a site which
> some peopel find useful, mainly because I have done quite a bit of
> work on understanding the helmet issue, which is a complex one.


Or you have a site with search/navigation so poor that people are
bouncing around all over the place trying to find something before
giving up, as one of a number of other explanations.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
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Old 06-07.-2004, 08:09 AM   #476
Benjamin Lewis
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

Bill Z. wrote:

> Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:
>
>> Bill Z. wrote:
>>>
>>> The shape doesn't matter. All the matters in the position of the
>>> center of mass relative to where the front tire touches the ground.

>>
>> ... and the shape significantly affects the position of the center of
>> mass.

>
> No it doesn't: the predominant thing that affects the position of the
> center of mass is the rider (in this case, a single one, sitting at
> about the same position relative to the front wheel as on a mountain
> or road bike.) The rest of the tandem is a small correction due to
> the mass of the frame being far lower than the mass of the cyclist.


How small?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
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Old 06-07.-2004, 08:11 AM   #477
Benjamin Lewis
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Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

Bill Z. wrote:

> Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:
>
>> Bill Z. wrote:
>>
>>> What I find even more curious is that a short, obscure paper written
>>> by three guys is the only thing that ever gets mentioned by the
>>> anti-helmet camp,

>>
>> That's because it's pretty much the only statistic quoted by the
>> anti-choice camp. Or if it isn't, what other study shows this "85%"
>> figure that I keep seeing?
>>
>> The "anti-helmet" camp, as you call it, also frequently mentions a
>> number of other studies, e.g. New Zealand & Australia.

>
> I should have said that it is the only study showing a positive result
> for helmet use that they mention.


Which other ones should they mention?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
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Old 06-07.-2004, 09:02 AM   #478
Dan Becker
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

In article <m3acyeck5c.fsf@nospam.pacbell.net>, Bill Z.
<nobody@nospam.pacbell.net> wrote:

> It wasn't clear if the line of cars was in a lane parallel to Dan's or
> if it was on the cross street, nor was it clear if the left-turning
> car was turning from the cross street or from an opposing lane on the
> street Dan was riding on. I'll let Dan fill in the details if he
> chooses.


Line of cars was in the left lane parallel to my movement in the right
lane of a four lane road (two lanes each way). The turning car was
turning left from the left lane of the opposite direction traffic
across my two lanes into a driveway on my right. A driver in a van
waved him through (when I do that to folks, I'm saying "I'm not going
to pull up, you can come in front of me"; the left-turning driver
thought he meant "the coast is clear, you can barrel through without
looking at all"), and with the van obscuring my view, he just appeared
in front of me. It was a small, low, foreign sedan.

The driver was cited for not seeing the way clear for a safe turning
movement.

Condescending comments or not, my riding style is different now, and
this situation would not reoccur for me. I thought I was safe by owning
the lane, but the confluence of factors demonstrated that I was not.

Dan
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Old 06-07.-2004, 09:05 AM   #479
Dan Becker
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

In article <bJhGc.5832$R36.2793@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dan what are the chances that had you not been wearing a helmet that your
> head would have missed the ground since cracking indicates only a slight
> grazing?


That is unknowable for certain, but judging from the skid marks on the
outer shell, I'd have had at the very minimum some serious headburn and
lost hair to go with my lost skin. The condition of the helmet
suggested to me that my head most certainly would have contacted the
pavement.

Dan
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Old 06-07.-2004, 09:12 AM   #480
Bill Z.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: published helmet research - not troll

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:

> Bill Z. wrote:
>
> > Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:
> >
> >> Bill Z. wrote:
> >>
> >>> What I find even more curious is that a short, obscure paper written
> >>> by three guys is the only thing that ever gets mentioned by the
> >>> anti-helmet camp,
> >>
> >> That's because it's pretty much the only statistic quoted by the
> >> anti-choice camp. Or if it isn't, what other study shows this "85%"
> >> figure that I keep seeing?
> >>
> >> The "anti-helmet" camp, as you call it, also frequently mentions a
> >> number of other studies, e.g. New Zealand & Australia.

> >
> > I should have said that it is the only study showing a positive result
> > for helmet use that they mention.

>
> Which other ones should they mention?


See <http://www.bhsi.org/henderso.htm> (the report itself is a high
level summary and not that interesting as a result), but it contains
a long bibliography. I've pasted that part in below:

======================

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Swedish National Testing and Research Institute, SP Report, 1993
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Lane J C, Helmets for child bicyclists: some biomedical
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