**** Breaking News: Hamilton Tested Positive? ***

Brunswick_kate

In recognition of the fact that internet flame wars take 2 participants, I deleted my original posts which is the closest I can come to withdrawing remarks that shouldn't have been commented on in the first place.

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Lonnie Utah

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gntlmn

Ok. I guess this thread ought to be entitled "riddle me this". I have no idea what you're talking about.

philoakley

Neither you or I are in a position to put percentages on the doping issue. Is David millar in your 1% or 5%? How many Festina riders in 1998 tested positive?. Yes, I do speak in generalities because the problem cannot be quantified accurately as you seem to claim. Incidents such as Festina and David Millar show that potentially large numbers of doping riders are slipping through the net. The fact that the Tour is faster today than in 1998 when it was openly acknowledged that there was a doping problem doesn't seem to ring any bells with you does it? Can training account for the improvement in 6 years? I don't think so.

philoakley

Jus to help you to understand this a little better. I think that Eddy Merckx would have to be doped to increase his speed by 2-3kmh over the Tour de France. In my opinion, whilst Hinault was not as good a rider as Merckx, he wasn't far behind. He just did not have the same desire to win every race.

gntlmn

That's kind of what I'm talking about--that little extra deep down. I call it the dog in you. What makes you keep coming back for more when you get knocked to the canvas--never wanting to quit. That's the way Merckx was. And I don't think he even had a heart rate monitor or power meter or hypoxic tent.

Oh, I see what you're doing. You are comparing average speeds over the whole course. Well, that can be explained by the size of the peloton. If you draft near the back of the peloton, your heart rate hardly gets going at all even if the speed of the peloton is 2-3 km faster than it was then. In Merckx' time, there weren't as many riders to draft behind simply because there weren't as many in the race. This is also why it was easier to mount a successful breakaway then. Now, it's so much tougher to do that. A larger peloton doesn't get as tired unless it makes up for the difference by going faster.

sportzgurl

I don't want to go "off thread" but it seems it is anyway lol. People go on and on about LA and doping. Why does he keep winning and getting these huge advantages over other wise winning riders. If he isn't doping then what? It has alot to do with his heart or his ''dog'' if you like. If you have read his books which im sure most of you have you cannot argue with the fact that he has alot of fuel in his heart and thats what makes those huge margins, and what would make the Tour get faster. Just a thought.

Also I just heard on our news in New Zealand that 6 riders are going to face a Belgium doping committee. Not just New Zealanders some others aswell (it didn't mention who). The one NZer who is in that six competed in the Olympics I think, so perhaps they have got more than just Tyler?? Man, news agencies shouldn't just publish a little bit of the story cos it leaves you guessing the rest!!

gntlmn

Well, you haven't considered that I may have overestimated the problem at 1% non compliance, did you? But think about it. The 1% is the amount of riders busted each year for doping. After that, they aren't in the game anymore. We're not talking about a representative sample of the population of current pro riders. We are talking about the entire population of pros. They all get tested. And they are all tested clean if they are riding. If they come up positive, they are not in the game anymore.

Festina's whole team added with David Millar don't add up to much in relation to the total number of pros.

What you say about doping reminds me of the times of the gold rush. All someone had to do was put a few gold nuggets in a stream and spread a few rumors about finding some. Once someone finds one of those planted nuggets, everyone has gold fever. They think the stream is flowing over with gold, and they buy the mining claims at outrageous prices. The crooks come off with a huge haul for just a few nuggets of gold and a few rumors.

Well, that's what's going on with the dopers. There's a very few of them, and you are not willing to consider that that is all there is--just a few. But what year have the pros had more than 50% annual noncompliance? Or 40%? Or 30%? Or 20%? Or 10%? Or 5%? I can keep asking the same question and get a "never" answer for quite a while, decreasing the percentage. The difference between you and me is that I am looking at the numbers, and you are using a gut feeling which has no basis in reality.

Watch out for the puffed up mining claims. There might not be more gold than is in front of your eyes.

gntlmn

I noticed you're from New Zealand. Well, an Aussie is going to get the bronze in the road race TT if Tyler is gone.

I wonder how many riders are pro in New Zealand. In the Olympics, they also include the amateurs, if there still are any more of those in olympic cycling. I'm curious about how many other riders there are in relation to these six who are the focus of a drug investigation. Actually, I guess only one of them is from New Zealand.

gntlmn

If you are going to make the claim that it is faster today than in 1998, you better put up the numbers. Then we can examine it, and take it apart, piece by piece. This kind of generalized, hazy, vague approach just doesn't set well with me. It's too easy to come up with the wrong conclusions.

noonievut

I'm a fan of cycling but I don't care if he doped and if he got caught. It won't affect my daily rides, equipment buying (yes long-term this could be an issue if doping was out of hand, but come on) and enjoyment of the activity.

To me this isn't like following a major sports team and finding out the captain is getting the boot for doping.

I understand there are competitive pressures with pro cycling and that people who can't do it on their own look for unfair advantages, but I know that these people will regret this in life and I find joy in knowing that cheats will one day pay for it in their own humble way.

What's more important in this story is Tyler knowing deep down what his intentions were, and living with them.

sportzgurl

New Zealanders are very compedetive (i cant spell) with the aussies so im not sure if i want an aussie to get the bronze. But he deserves it if he gets it thats for sure.
All they said was 6 riders. The only name the mentioned was the NZ guy, Jeremy Yates was his name. It looked like he was wearing a quickstep top in the picture i saw but I doubt it. I think Julian Dean is the only NZer with a BIG NAME contract so it cant have been a Quickstep top! This guy Yates, i dont think that he does much elite cycling in terms of over seas ( i dont think) so the only place i can think of him getting pinged would be at the Olympics. But im sure we would have heard that more riders were caught if that was the case. Anyway, why would a NZer cheat??? lol

antoineg

gntlmn you certainly are prolific. What are we to make then of the numerous pro cyclists (or team types like Voet) who have come out over the last few years and commented how pervasive and universal the doping problem is in cycling?

Are they all liars? Or are you intentionally avoiding their various testimonies?

sportzgurl

I have read the book that Willy Voet wrote and the lengths that some of the riders in his book went to to cheat seem to be a bit extreme for today. Although blood doping is extreme. It also seems that the riders back in the Festina time could get away with doping easy. Im sure times have changed in terms of collecting the sample etc so perhaps he is wrong and over estimating the situation. Mind you, he and probably you know alot more about this topic than me!!!