Turning without countersteering: photographs and test results

Simon Brooke

This morning is glorious. And given that it is glorious I thought it was
an appropriate time to take the photographs I promised James.

Firstly: can you ride a bicycle with locked steering? Having tried to
set this up, the answer, against my intuition, is that I think you can.
My test rig involved tying taut lines from the seatpost to the
handlebar ends. I wasn't able to totally lock the steering by this
means and the bars could still be moved, with strength, through about
one degree either way. It was hard to get started on this rig, and it
felt very scarey, but once the bike got up to about 8mph freewheeling
down a slight incline it was OK. I didn't try any faster than that
because this was clearly not very safe, but it was a lot less hard than
I'd expected. However, the bars weren't totally locked so I wouldn't
call this conclusive.

Second, can you ride a bike which _cannot_ counter-steer? Yes, it's
easy. I tied just one handlebar so that the steering could be turned
freely in one direction, but its absolute limit in the other direction
was straight ahead. This rig was only slightly more difficult to ride
than a normal bike. However as all course corrections were to one side
and the only means of straightening up or turning the other way was
bunny-hopping it wasn't easy to ride straight.

Thirdly, how tight a turn can you make on a conventional bike without
countersteering? On smooth tarmac with the aid of a slope I was able to
make 180 degree turns within a 2 metre radius circle, but as the tarmac
is still wet I wasn't able to get convincing photographs of this. In
order to get photographs I went down onto the beach. The sand was soft
- very far from an ideal surface - and the tightest turn radius I
achieved was about 2.2 metres. Counter-steering didn't help in the
least, as I suspected - I wasn't able to turn as tightly with
counter-steering as without it (although I'm not saying no-one else
could do better).

So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on this
picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG> and
point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

I've plenty more photographs if you _really_ want to make a fool of
yourself.


--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Our modern industrial economy takes a mountain covered with trees,
;; lakes, running streams and transforms it into a mountain of junk,
;; garbage, slime pits, and debris. -- Edward Abbey

Simonb

Simon Brooke wrote:

> I've plenty more photographs if you _really_ want to make a fool of
> yourself.

TBPH, I'm not at all interested in your research, but can you post some nice
pics of the views up there. It is a particularly dull and mild winter's day
down here on the English south coast (this weather pattern is
interminable -- I'd even prefer rain) and I could do with some scenery.

Just zis Guy, you know?

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:45:36 +0000, Simon Brooke
<simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

>So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
>counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on this
>picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG> and
>point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

Yebbut which wheel is which? ;-)

TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Pete Biggs

Simon, would you mind posting or x-posting a copy of your message to
rec.bicycles.tech ? The replies are bound to be interesting and fun.

~PB

James Annan

Simon Brooke wrote:

[cluelessness deleted]

> So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
> counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on this
> picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG> and
> point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

Right under your nose, you dullard. Just where the rear tyre (heavy
track) turns left, the lighter track (front tyre) turns briefly but
clearly to the right! I'm talking about the section from where the
tracks separate, until the front wheel goes over some mark in the sand
(maybe a foot, hard to tell with no scale). Put a straight edge up
agains the screen and it is pretty obvious. Of course the front wheel
got to that separation point first, proving that this countersteering
action was the source of the turn.

> I've plenty more photographs if you _really_ want to make a fool of
> yourself.

Feel free. I suggest you use thinner tyres on a firm surface next time,
I'm sure it never crossed your mind but using fat tyres on a soft
surface substantially alters the situation - make the sand soft enough,
and of course anyone can "balance" even a stationary bike, but that is
hardly relevant to the original point. Your trick of using a beach gives
yourself something like a 3" wide contact patch with sloping edges which
may change the difficulty of balancing a non-steering bike from a circus
trick to something within the realm of a normal cyclist. Nevertheless,
the countersteer is still there.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

James Annan

Ok, since you went to all that trouble, I'll write a more detailed reply.

Simon Brooke wrote:

> This morning is glorious. And given that it is glorious I thought it was
> an appropriate time to take the photographs I promised James.
>
> Firstly: can you ride a bicycle with locked steering? Having tried to
> set this up, the answer, against my intuition, is that I think you can.

At this point, I think it should be clear that your experiment is not
relevant to normal riding since one thing on which everyone agrees is
that it is not generally possible to ride a normal bicycle with the
steering locked straight ahead (at least by a normal rider). Possible
weaknesses in your test are the residual slack in the steering (why am I
writing this, you admit you could steer). You may, of course, just be
extraordinarily skilled, or your choice of tyres might move the problem
into the realm of the possible (leaning will move the contact patch
sideqays by a bit, and a particularly stiff/knobbly tyre might give you
an even greater advantage). Whatever, either you are steering or you are
not riding the bike normally!

An easy way to properly lock the steering is to overtighten the headset.
Then even if you can turn the bars by force, they will not move in
hands-off riding. For that matter, did you even ride your trussed-up
bike hands off? If you were managing by balance alone rather than
forcing the steering, then having your arms free would surely make it
easier rather than harder.

> Second, can you ride a bike which _cannot_ counter-steer? Yes, it's
> easy. I tied just one handlebar so that the steering could be turned
> freely in one direction, but its absolute limit in the other direction
> was straight ahead. This rig was only slightly more difficult to ride
> than a normal bike. However as all course corrections were to one side
> and the only means of straightening up or turning the other way was
> bunny-hopping it wasn't easy to ride straight.

This "test" is nonsense. Such a bicycle can obviously be ridden in a
gentle curve (as you found) so long as you do not overbalance to the
unsteerable side. In this context, the countersteering you are doing is
relative to the gentle curve, the contact patch can be steered to either
side of the equilibrium position to maintain your balance. Make the
curve gentle enough (or even allow yourself a degree of steer to the
locked side) and it might feel like a straight line with just the odd
wobble to one side.

I've already dealt with the rest.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Simon Brooke

in message <32aq4hF3jikg1U1@individual.net>, Pete Biggs
('pwrinkledgrape{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc') wrote:

> Simon, would you mind posting or x-posting a copy of your message to
> rec.bicycles.tech ? The replies are bound to be interesting and fun.

Frankly I'm bored of this, and the last thing I want to get involved in
is yet another tedious religious flame war. People have the most absurd
theories about how bikes work, and they don't much like real world
experiments which disprove their shibboleths.

But if you want to, feel free. As I say, I've plenty more photographs,
and if someone has the bandwidth to host it I'm perfectly happy to
shoot some movie footage.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.

Simon Brooke

in message <56c0s01sq2kug934jejsp7elmnbcfaajck@4ax.com>, Just zis Guy,
you know? ('norfolk.inspam@dev.null') wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:45:36 +0000, Simon Brooke
> <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
>>counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on
>>this picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG>
>>and point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.
>
> Yebbut which wheel is which? ;-)
>
> TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
> Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
> the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.

It is. I simply get irritated by people declaiming from on high that
'the earth is flat' when ten minutes of real-world experimentation will
show clearly that it is not.

This reminds me of the argument on rec.bicycle.tech where I demonstrated
- by posting a movie - that gyroscopic precession is not the major
factor in bicycle steering, and Jobst Brandt got so tied up in his own
ego that he was reduced to accusing me of faking the movie. I'm just
looking forward to James saying that either (i) the bike must have been
pushed with long poles or (ii) I have doctored the photographs.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant

soup

Simon Brooke popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on
and said

> So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
> counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on
> this picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG>
> and point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

Know virtualy nothing about this counter steering argument
but couldn't you have cropped/reduced in size that photo.
it seemed to take forever to download and I am on 1Mb
someone on dial-up would surely get fed up waiting before
all the pic. had downloaded


--
yours S

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione

David Martin

On 15/12/04 12:15 pm, in article 41c02adf$0$218$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk,
"Simonb" <sbennett@YOUAREALLNETDENIZENSwiderworld.co.uk> wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> I've plenty more photographs if you _really_ want to make a fool of
>> yourself.
>
> TBPH, I'm not at all interested in your research, but can you post some nice
> pics of the views up there. It is a particularly dull and mild winter's day
> down here on the English south coast (this weather pattern is
> interminable -- I'd even prefer rain) and I could do with some scenery.
>
>
how about this from Sunday morning?
<URL:http://www.compbio.dundee.ac.uk/~dmamartin/small_IMG_1838.JPG>

...d

David Martin

On 15/12/04 12:59 pm, in article 32aqnjF3ktgvaU1@individual.net, "James
Annan" <still_the_same_me@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Your trick of using a beach gives
> yourself something like a 3" wide contact patch with sloping edges which
> may change the difficulty of balancing a non-steering bike from a circus
> trick to something within the realm of a normal cyclist. Nevertheless,
> the countersteer is still there.

Umm.. he did ride it on a firm surface first but used the beach to get the
tracks..

...d

Simon Brooke

in message <32aqnjF3ktgvaU1@individual.net>, James Annan
('still_the_same_me@hotmail.com') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> [cluelessness deleted]
>
>> So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
>> counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on
>> this picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG>
>> and point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.
>
> Right under your nose, you dullard. Just where the rear tyre (heavy
> track) turns left, the lighter track (front tyre) turns briefly but
> clearly to the right! I'm talking about the section from where the
> tracks separate, until the front wheel goes over some mark in the sand
> (maybe a foot, hard to tell with no scale).

Mark it on the photo, and post it on a website for everyone to see.

> Put a straight edge up
> agains the screen and it is pretty obvious. Of course the front wheel
> got to that separation point first, proving that this countersteering
> action was the source of the turn.
>
>> I've plenty more photographs if you _really_ want to make a fool of
>> yourself.
>
> Feel free. I suggest you use thinner tyres on a firm surface next
> time, I'm sure it never crossed your mind but using fat tyres on a
> soft surface substantially alters the situation - make the sand soft
> enough, and of course anyone can "balance" even a stationary bike, but
> that is hardly relevant to the original point. Your trick of using a
> beach gives yourself something like a 3" wide contact patch with
> sloping edges which may change the difficulty of balancing a
> non-steering bike from a circus trick to something within the realm of
> a normal cyclist. Nevertheless, the countersteer is still there.

I did the tests initially on road bike with 20mm tyres; I repeated them
on the beach to get a photographable track. The width of the tyre makes
not difference at all. It is, of course, substantially easier on
tarmac. I can take - and post - movies if you like.

The benefit of testing first and posting afterwards is you are saved the
embarrassment of eating your words when you have been proved wrong.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

to err is human, to lisp divine
;; attributed to Kim Philby, oddly enough.

Simon Mason

"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message news:b4t592->
> Frankly I'm bored of this, and the last thing I want to get involved in
> is yet another tedious religious flame war. People have the most absurd
> theories about how bikes work, and they don't much like real world
> experiments which disprove their shibboleths.

I've not gone to your lengths, but I find I can steer to the left at slow
speed by turning my bars left, that's how I keep my body upright on slippery
roads. I can also dive left at speed by moving the bars to the right.

Has there been some "previous" to this debate somewhere else? It's seemed to
"kick off" early doors IMHO ;-)

--
Simon M.

Pete Biggs

Simon Mason wrote:
> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message news:b4t592->
>> Frankly I'm bored of this, and the last thing I want to get involved
>> in is yet another tedious religious flame war. People have the most
>> absurd theories about how bikes work, and they don't much like real
>> world experiments which disprove their shibboleths.
>
> I've not gone to your lengths, but I find I can steer to the left at
> slow speed by turning my bars left, that's how I keep my body upright
> on slippery roads.

Try it on dry tarmac after riding through a puddle, then examine the tyre
tracks.

> I can also dive left at speed by moving the bars
> to the right.
>
> Has there been some "previous" to this debate somewhere else?

A lot on rec.bicycles.tech and I think some here too.

> It's
> seemed to "kick off" early doors IMHO ;-)

~PB