Turning without countersteering: photographs and test results

nobody

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:45:36 +0000, Simon Brooke
<simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

The photograph that is offered is worthless. There is insufficient
contrast to be able to distinguish the front and rear tracks clearly,
and the wide tyres don't help either.

It would be better if you repeated the trial on a hard, level surface
on a bike with narrow tires. A light scattering of sand would provide
evidence of the tyre's tracks, or maybe riding over a patch covered in
newspapers soaked with water. You're a creative guy, you can probably
think of a better method...

nobody

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:42:51 +0000, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<norfolk.inspam@dev.null> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:45:36 +0000, Simon Brooke
><simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
>>counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on this
>>picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG> and
>>point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.
>
>Yebbut which wheel is which? ;-)
>
>TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
>Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
>the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.
>

And to think you call yourself an engineer!

Simon Brooke

in message <41c0794e$0$74688$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Richard Goodman
('rsk@NOSPAM.homechoice.co.uk') wrote:

> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:1ok592-896.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>> This morning is glorious. And given that it is glorious I thought it
>> was an appropriate time to take the photographs I promised James.
>>
>> Firstly: can you ride a bicycle with locked steering? Having tried to
>> set this up, the answer, against my intuition, is that I think you
>> can.
>
> Ride? For how far? Even if it demonstrably _can_ be done by someone
> with
> exceptionally good balance - and at slow speed and for short
> distances - I don't think it changes anything about the theory of how
> people stay upright riding a bicycle...

No, not really - and as I say I don't think I proved anything as the
bike was able to steer a tiny bit. Slow speed is harder, as with a
conventional bike it steadied up as it got faster. I've no explanation
of why, and I don't know whether it would have been possible at all if
the steering had been truly rigid. As to how far, about 50 metres. It
didn't feel very safe and all I wanted to do was establish whether it
was possible.

>> Second, can you ride a bike which _cannot_ counter-steer?
>
> But that's just part of the same question - can you balance without
> making
> minute steering adjustments to either side? Block the possibility of
> doing it one side only and it should certainly be easier than having
> it locked on both sides, but still not viable over any distance except
> as James suggests, by riding in what amounts to a large radius curve.

It's true that (unless you bunny-hop to correct) you do end up going in
a gentle curve even when you're trying to go straight. What's
interesting is that it is quite easy to ride.

>> Thirdly, how tight a turn can you make on a conventional bike without
>> countersteering?
>
> I must admit I've never really been able to figure out how this
> counter-steering point is supposed to work. I suppose I must do it
> instinctively because everyone says that's what you need to do to
> turn, but despite trying to observe how I make turns I can't see where
> I countersteer in most cases - it seems that I just turn the bars in
> the direction I want
> to go and 'fall' (lean) into the turn.

Which is exactly what you (or at least I) do do. Some people may
habitually counter-steer - it does work, and I've never suggested it
didn't.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing left for us to do
but pick up the pieces.

Simon Brooke

in message <4xucndCpj_rl8F3cSa8jmA@karoo.co.uk>, Simon Mason
('simon@simonmason.karoo.co.uk') wrote:

>
> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message news:b4t592->
>> Frankly I'm bored of this, and the last thing I want to get involved
>> in is yet another tedious religious flame war. People have the most
>> absurd theories about how bikes work, and they don't much like real
>> world experiments which disprove their shibboleths.
>
> I've not gone to your lengths, but I find I can steer to the left at
> slow
> speed by turning my bars left, that's how I keep my body upright on
> slippery roads. I can also dive left at speed by moving the bars to
> the right.
>
> Has there been some "previous" to this debate somewhere else? It's
> seemed to "kick off" early doors IMHO ;-)

There's been a very long and tedious thread about it already.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

' ' <------- this blank intentionally spaced left

Just zis Guy, you know?

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:33:19 +0000, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

>>TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
>>Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
>>the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.

>And to think you call yourself an engineer!

Not sure of your point - is it that engineers are supposed to feel
compelled to argue the toss about unimportant things?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

nobody

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:54:50 +0000, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<norfolk.inspam@dev.null> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:33:19 +0000, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>>TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
>>>Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
>>>the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.
>
>>And to think you call yourself an engineer!
>
>Not sure of your point - is it that engineers are supposed to feel
>compelled to argue the toss about unimportant things?

Bloody right they do, at least where I work. Latest discussion:
"Is fillet steak derived from a cut of meat called 'the fillet', or is
it just another cut which has been filleted by the butcher?".
No googling allowed.

But to return to your post:

"...Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could
move the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway."

You countersteer everytime you take a corner or follow a bend in the
road - unless your excursions unto the dark side have grown more
worrisome and you've splashed out on a Windcheetah (three wheels,
hence self-balancing)

the.Mark

soup wrote:
> Simon Brooke popped their head over the parapet saw what was
> going on and said
>
>> So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
>> counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand
>> track on this picture:
>> <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG> and
>> point to the place where you believe counter-steering
>> happened.
>
> Know virtualy nothing about this counter steering argument
> but couldn't you have cropped/reduced in size that photo.
> it seemed to take forever to download and I am on 1Mb
> someone on dial-up would surely get fed up waiting before
> all the pic. had downloaded

I'm still on dial up and it didn't take too long.
--
Mark

1x1 wheel, 3x2 wheels & 1x3 wheels.

David Martin

On 15/12/04 8:16 pm, in article
imi692-ai9.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk, "Simon Brooke"
<simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

> Which is exactly what you (or at least I) do do. Some people may
> habitually counter-steer - it does work, and I've never suggested it
> didn't.

I was thinking about this as I was riding home tonight. I thought about what
I was doing and realised that to keep going in a straight line I probably
countersteer more than I conventionally steer, using my considerable weight
to turn the bike rather than the steering. In my case it isn't anything
major in deciding to do it, I just put more weight on the bars on teh side I
want to turn. This pushes the inside side forwards, and the bike leans
inwards, away from the handlebars.

...d

soup

the.Mark popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on and
said

> I'm still on dial up and it didn't take too long.

By must have had a problem earlier as it was dismaly slow to load.


--
yours S

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione

James Annan

Simon Brooke wrote:

> in message <32aqnjF3ktgvaU1@individual.net>, James Annan
> ('still_the_same_me@hotmail.com') wrote:
>
>
>>Simon Brooke wrote:
>>
>>[cluelessness deleted]
>>
>>
>>>So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
>>>counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on
>>>this picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG>
>>>and point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.
>>
>>Right under your nose, you dullard. Just where the rear tyre (heavy
>>track) turns left, the lighter track (front tyre) turns briefly but
>>clearly to the right! I'm talking about the section from where the
>>tracks separate, until the front wheel goes over some mark in the sand
>>(maybe a foot, hard to tell with no scale).
>
>
> Mark it on the photo, and post it on a website for everyone to see.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjame...tersteering.jpg

> The benefit of testing first and posting afterwards is you are saved the
> embarrassment of eating your words when you have been proved wrong.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

David Martin

On 15/12/04 10:05 pm, in article 32bqmjF3kgpqdU1@individual.net, "James
Annan" <still_the_same_me@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> in message <32aqnjF3ktgvaU1@individual.net>, James Annan
>> ('still_the_same_me@hotmail.com') wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>>
>>> [cluelessness deleted]
>>>
>>>
>>>> So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
>>>> counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on
>>>> this picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG>
>>>> and point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.
>>>
>>> Right under your nose, you dullard. Just where the rear tyre (heavy
>>> track) turns left, the lighter track (front tyre) turns briefly but
>>> clearly to the right! I'm talking about the section from where the
>>> tracks separate, until the front wheel goes over some mark in the sand
>>> (maybe a foot, hard to tell with no scale).
>>
>>
>> Mark it on the photo, and post it on a website for everyone to see.
>
> http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjame...tersteering.jpg

Which way was the bike travelling? I'm not sure from this photo whether one
can argue anything much.

...d


>
>> The benefit of testing first and posting afterwards is you are saved the
>> embarrassment of eating your words when you have been proved wrong.
>
> James

Just zis Guy, you know?

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:26:10 +0000, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote
in message <0la1s09en2ic42i2s660ccsnaijcmmtk51@4ax.com>:

>>Not sure of your point - is it that engineers are supposed to feel
>>compelled to argue the toss about unimportant things?

>Bloody right they do, at least where I work. Latest discussion:
>"Is fillet steak derived from a cut of meat called 'the fillet', or is
>it just another cut which has been filleted by the butcher?".

In my experience scientists are the worst for this. Engineers'
disputes in my experience tend to revolve around nuances of
Walschaerts valve gear ;-)

>"...Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could
>move the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway."

>You countersteer everytime you take a corner or follow a bend in the
>road - unless your excursions unto the dark side have grown more
>worrisome and you've splashed out on a Windcheetah (three wheels,
>hence self-balancing)

If you want to look at it that way, there is no substantive difference
between countersteering and the normal weaving involved in keeping the
bike upright - all you are doing is using the normal weaving motion to
place the bike such that it leans into the turn you are about to make.
It's just assigning a label to something which is an intuitive part of
riding and cannot be taught. Full-on countersteer, used to make very
sharp turns, is something I've never really tried.

Turning corners on an OSS tiller-steered 'bent is different from
riding a wedgie, though - you rely much more on steering and much less
on just leaning into the corner.

Guy
--
"then came ye chavves, theyre cartes girded wyth candels
blue, and theyre beastes wyth straynge horn-lyke thyngs
onn theyre arses that theyre fartes be herde from myles
around." Chaucer, the Sheppey Tales

David Martin

On 15/12/04 10:59 pm, in article 94g1s0l4vc8eg713n13944gifrsqbgvgn0@4ax.com,
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:26:10 +0000, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote
> in message <0la1s09en2ic42i2s660ccsnaijcmmtk51@4ax.com>:
>
>>> Not sure of your point - is it that engineers are supposed to feel
>>> compelled to argue the toss about unimportant things?
>
>> Bloody right they do, at least where I work. Latest discussion:
>> "Is fillet steak derived from a cut of meat called 'the fillet', or is
>> it just another cut which has been filleted by the butcher?".
>
> In my experience scientists are the worst for this. Engineers'
> disputes in my experience tend to revolve around nuances of
> Walschaerts valve gear ;-)

A logician would answer 'Yes' to the question. As a bit of a foodie, I would
say that the fillet is the big muscle running down the lumbar vertebrae so
is named after the cut, rather than the cutting. Someone will prove me wrong
I am sure. Best thing to do with it is Chateau Briand with a good red wine
and a friend.

Scientists tend to be picky. It seems to be a way of showing that they have
thought about the problem in a more sophisticated way than the others.

>
>> "...Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could
>> move the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway."
>
>> You countersteer everytime you take a corner or follow a bend in the
>> road - unless your excursions unto the dark side have grown more
>> worrisome and you've splashed out on a Windcheetah (three wheels,
>> hence self-balancing)
>
> If you want to look at it that way, there is no substantive difference
> between countersteering and the normal weaving involved in keeping the
> bike upright - all you are doing is using the normal weaving motion to
> place the bike such that it leans into the turn you are about to make.
> It's just assigning a label to something which is an intuitive part of
> riding and cannot be taught. Full-on countersteer, used to make very
> sharp turns, is something I've never really tried.

Me neither, though I have conciously tried to countersteer around fast
corners in my younger and less timid days.

> Turning corners on an OSS tiller-steered 'bent is different from
> riding a wedgie, though - you rely much more on steering and much less
> on just leaning into the corner.

I'm prepared to do an experiment if someone will provide the equipment in a
size I can pedal. At the URC edinburgh HPV meet I couldn't ride any of the
recumbents (apart from Mark's WC) becasue my legs are underspecced in the
length department.

...d

Dave Kahn

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:49:53 -0000, "Richard Goodman"
<rsk@NOSPAM.homechoice.co.uk> wrote:

>I must admit I've never really been able to figure out how this
>counter-steering point is supposed to work. I suppose I must do it
>instinctively because everyone says that's what you need to do to turn, but
>despite trying to observe how I make turns I can't see where I countersteer
>in most cases - it seems that I just turn the bars in the direction I want
>to go and 'fall' (lean) into the turn. Or maybe it's lean and turn in that
>order. The only time I catch myself steering away from the corner first is
>to either swerve around a pot hole or manhole cover, or to make the radius
>of the turn larger to go round it faster.

Steering a bike is an effortless skill but it's maddeningly difficult
to isolate what we actually do to initiate it. If I set out to watch
myself counter-steer it definitely happens, but it also seems not to
happen if I try to avoid doing it. If I try to initiate a turn by a
quick lean nothing much happens other than continuing in a straight
line with the bike inclined to one side and my upper body to the
other.

A couple of threads back I suggested an idea that I thought would
provoke some fierce refutations but nobody seemed to pick up on it. A
rider going along in a straight line is continually making small
adjustments to maintain his balance. If this were not the case this
would be equivalent of successfully riding a bike with locked
steering. If the rider stops making adjustments the bike will
immediately start to fall to one side or the other. My suggestion was
that we simply stop correcting on the desired side until a turn to
that side has begun. This is definitely what a normal turn feels like
to me. If I want to go right I think right and, lo, the bike is
leaning right seemingly of its own accord.

Thinking about it a little further the uncorrected fall to the right
must follow a corrected fall to the left. So I suppose this is after
all the counter-steering argument in disguise. Possibly the reason we
don't detect it as a counter-steering action is because it is a normal
part of staying balanced.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain