Turning without countersteering: photographs and test results

Clive George

"Mark Thompson" <pleasegivegenerously@warmmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95C190E8693A3pleasegivegenerously@130.133.1.4...
> > I think what you think of as steering without counter-steering is
> > merely steering withough explicitly countersteering - during the
> > normal course of riding in a straight line, the bike wobbles a little
> > tiny bit, and all you do is unconsciously use one of those wobbles to
> > provide the necessary countersteer to initiate your turn.
>
> Don't we use the wickle countersteering thingies to correct the wobble
tho,
> so by using a wobble to start of a lean into a turn we stop
> countersteering?

I thought that what you've just described is countersteering?

cheers,
clive

Mark Thompson

> I thought that what you've just described is countersteering?

Bugger, my brain has just dribbled out of my ears.

Clive George

"Paul - xxx" <notcheckedever@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:32dk3pF3m6edqU1@individual.net...

> What about no-handed riding? I can use knees, thighs, feet etc to weight
or
> un-weight a pedal, side of seat, etc all without hands on the bars and
still
> turn a corner. Lean over, witt hands still off the bars, and the bike
will
> lean over and initiate it's own turn. The body can then straighten
slightly
> to balance, and the bike will continue that turn. All no hands on bars,
all
> achieved with no countersteering."

The thing is, I'm not convinced this has been achieved without
countersteering. Without explicit countersteering, certainly, without easily
detectable countersteering, quite likely. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

cheers,
clive

dkahn400

Paul - xxx wrote:
> "dkahn400 composed the following ...
> > The C of G is still inside the track of the wheels. You still
> > have to account for how the rider managed to move his C of G
> > to one side.
>
> errr by moving his legs, arms, feet, body.

Newton's third law. If you move part of your body to your left there
must be an equal reaction to the right. Because you have nothing to
push against, something else must move to the right. When you stick
your left arm out to signal the bike doesn't start a turn by itself.
What happens is that your bike and body incline slightly to the right
and you carry on in a straight line. Your centre of gravity remains
stubbornly above the line between the two contact patches.

> What about no-handed riding?

If I want to turn left I lean to the left, the bicycle leans initially
to the right, the bars turn slightly to the right giving the necessary
countersteer to move the contact patch to the right of the C of G. The
bicycle then leans to the left and the wheel turns left as it begins a
smooth turn.

--
Dave...

Patrick Herring

Simon Brooke <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

| in message <32bqmjF3kgpqdU1@individual.net>, James Annan
| ('still_the_same_me@hotmail.com') wrote:
|
| > Simon Brooke wrote:
....
| >> Mark it on the photo, and post it on a website for everyone to see.
| >
| > http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjame...tersteering.jpg
|
| Interesting that at the point you mark the track of the front wheel is
| clearly visible to the right of the track of the back. Face it, you
| cannot mark the point of countersteer, because it _did_ _not_ _happen_.

At the moment my money's on James, but I'm awaiting the Mk2 proof with
not inconsiderable concern. <g>

--
Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph.html

dkahn400

Mark Thompson wrote:

> I haven't tried it, but I think I could probably fall off a
> bicycle that had the handlebars locked in position.

I'm certain you could. The question is whether you can ride a bike with
the bars locked centrally without falling off. If as you believe you
can move your C of G at will to either side it should be easy. As you
start to fall to the left move your C of G to the right and you will
stop falling. If you can't move your C of G it will be next to
impossible. I suspect it might be possible by leaning the bike way over
to one side and your body to the other. It might then be possible to
get some reaction force from the ground. I think I'll have a go at the
weekend.

> I think we can shift our bodyweight to lean the bike and initiate
> a turn without needing to countersteer.

It might be possible to move the C of G to one side by large sudden
movements exploiting the bike's inertia, but I don't think it's
possible by the subtle movements of normal steering. If you were to
keep the bars rigidly in the central position while moving straight
ahead you would eventually begin to topple to one side or the other. If
you were then to turn the bars in the direction of lean you would enter
a turn without countersteering. But you would not have initiated the
sideways movement of your C of G. Rather you will have exploited the
fact that it was not perfectly over the centre line to begin with.

It's something like this that I believe is happening in normal cycling.
The subtle corrections we constantly make to keep the bike upright are
enough to provide the countersteering required to enter a turn. This is
why we are not usually aware of doing it. If I want to turn right all I
have to do is not let the bike fall to the left.

--
Dave...

Patrick Herring

Mark Thompson <pleasegivegenerously@warmmail.com> wrote:

| > In order to turn left, you start by turning the handlebars to the
| > right for a moment. This moves the front wheel out to the right of the
| > center of gravity, so the bike will start to fall to the left. This is
| > immediately follwed by turning the handlebars to the left to cause the
| > bike to remain in balance, which also creates the desired left turn.
| > "Countersteering" refers to the momentary motion of the handlebars in
| > the opposite direction of the desired turn.
|
| So the only reason we countersteer is to lean the bike over? If we can
| also lean the bike over just by shifting our weight then a countersteer is
| not necessary to initiate a turn. The question is, is it possible to shift
| our body to the side without also turning the handlbars?

You can in motorbike sidecar racing stylee. The question is whether
you can shift your centre of gravity to the side without instinctively
compensating. It feels like trying to fall off but not too much, which
is a bit like throwing yourself at the ground and missing...

| I haven't tried it, but I think I could probably fall off a bicycle that
| had the handlebars locked in position.

Yes. Once tried to transport a plank and it didn't leave much
steering-play. And Yes again <g>

--
Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph.html

dkahn400

Patrick Herring wrote:
> Mark Thompson <pleasegivegenerously@warmmail.com> wrote:
> | The question is, is it possible to shift our body
> | to the side without also turning the handlbars?
>
> You can in motorbike sidecar racing stylee.

Only if you lean the bike the other way. Your common C of G does not
move off the centre line as it can with a sidecar.

> Yes. Once tried to transport a plank and it didn't leave much
> steering-play. And Yes again <g>

Arguably there were two planks on the bike at that moment. (And that is
definitely a stone directed from a glass house). :-)

--
Dave...

Chris Malcolm

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <norfolk.inspam@dev.null> writes:

>On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:45:36 +0000, Simon Brooke
><simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:

>>So the challenge I pose to those who believe religiously that
>>counter-steering is necessary is to look at the left hand track on this
>>picture: <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/PC092760.JPG> and
>>point to the place where you believe counter-steering happened.

>Yebbut which wheel is which? ;-)

>TBH I think this is another one of those pointless arguments.
>Especially in my case - with an 18" tiller I'm not sure I could move
>the steering fast enough to countersteer anyway.

There's no speed threshold which makes it countersteering, or below
which countersteering won't work. All it does is to displace the
wheelbase to one side of the the CofG so that the bike starts falling
to the side you want to lean. You don't *have* to do that, since you
could equally well wait for the bike to wobble that way and not
correct it. And there's no magic about this being some kind of special
cycling magic: skaters do it and runners do it.

The only remarkable thing about countersteering is how many people
misunderstand it given that almost everyone, including non-cyclists,
do it when appropriate, whether they realise it or not. It's a nice
everyday example of the divorce between knowing *how* to do something
and knowing *that* you do it, the difference between practical and
theoretical know-how.

What puzzles most people is that they don't realise there is such a
divorce. Risk compensation is another nice example of that.
--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

James Hodson

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:26:10 +0000, nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Bloody right they do, at least where I work. Latest discussion:
>"Is fillet steak derived from a cut of meat called 'the fillet', or is
>it just another cut which has been filleted by the butcher?".
>No googling allowed.

Hi Nobody

Speaking as a non-engineer, a non-scientist & and a just about
adequate cook, who cares as long as the meat tastes nice?

Good eveing, sir, How would sir like his meat?
Medium-rare-Googled, please.

James

James Hodson

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:59:35 -0000, "Simon Mason"
<simon@simonmason.karoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I've not gone to your lengths, but I find I can steer to the left at slow
>speed by turning my bars left, that's how I keep my body upright on slippery
>roads. I can also dive left at speed by moving the bars to the right.

While cycling slowly ina queue of traffic today I was thinking about
steering in general. Assuming that both hands are on the bars and
ignoring counter-steering (counta-rap!), when turning left does one
pull with the left hand, push with the right, or both? Not that it
really matters.

James

Chris Malcolm

Simon Brooke <simon@jasmine.org.uk> writes:

>in message <32bqmjF3kgpqdU1@individual.net>, James Annan
>('still_the_same_me@hotmail.com') wrote:

>> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>
>>> in message <32aqnjF3ktgvaU1@individual.net>, James Annan
>>> ('still_the_same_me@hotmail.com') wrote:
>>>>Right under your nose, you dullard. Just where the rear tyre (heavy
>>>>track) turns left, the lighter track (front tyre) turns briefly but
>>>>clearly to the right! I'm talking about the section from where the
>>>>tracks separate, until the front wheel goes over some mark in the
>>>>sand (maybe a foot, hard to tell with no scale).
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark it on the photo, and post it on a website for everyone to see.
>>
>> http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjame...tersteering.jpg

>Interesting that at the point you mark the track of the front wheel is
>clearly visible to the right of the track of the back. Face it, you
>cannot mark the point of countersteer, because it _did_ _not_ _happen_.

You can't *reliably* identify countersteering from cycle tracks if you
don't know where the CofG was in relation to the tracks.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Chris Malcolm

Mark Thompson <pleasegivegenerously@warmmail.com> writes:

>I think we can shift our bodyweight to lean the bike and initiate a turn
>without needing to countersteer.

Isaac Newton disagrees with you. The problem is that shifting any part
of your body to one side automatically shifts the rest in reaction in
just such a way that the orientation of the perpendicular from the
CofG to the line of the contact patch with respect to gravity is
preserved.

It is possible to very clever with relative accelerations and
distances above the contact patch to defeat this equilibrium, but it
is a hard trick to learn, e.g. the small number of people who can
balance on a stationary bike (a bike which is rolling back and forth a
bit is not stationary).

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Mark Thompson

> It's something like this that I believe is happening in normal cycling.
> The subtle corrections we constantly make to keep the bike upright are
> enough to provide the countersteering required to enter a turn. This is
> why we are not usually aware of doing it. If I want to turn right all I
> have to do is not let the bike fall to the left.

<confused>

Um, so countersteering is moving the handlebars to the right to make us
fall left, but also moving them to the left to stop us falling left?

It's both a pro-active measure to help us turn, and a reactive measure to
keep us upright?

<still confused>