Cyclists, motorways and pseudomotorways

James Annan

dkahn400 wrote:

> dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers wrote:
>
>>
>>Of course the figures in 2003 were too high - *any* death is one
>>too many, however, Arthur, in some 180000 TT rides per year

> 180,000 rides, but how many riders does that represent? I would have
> said it was more meaningful to quote the fatalities pre rider per
> season rather than fatalities per ride.

The obvious calculation to do would be a per mile (or perhaps per hour)
basis, since nationally averaged figures for that are already available.

say 180,000 x 25 miles = 4.5 million. Someone who has the stats to hand
can tell us what the expected number of deaths is - 3 million miles per
death springs to mind, BICBW. That would suggest to me that TTs do have
substantially raised risks for the individual rider (taking account of
the fact that riders are generally experienced and skilled compared to
POBs) but perhaps no higher than the POB already faces...

> Personally I'm quite happy riding on most dual carriageways - certainly
> a lot happier than on some supposedly quiet urban roads posted as cycle
> routes. I think the problems with dual carriageways occur mainly at
> slip roads and roundabouts. In normal riding there are techniques for
> dealing with these but in an event where the riders are sometimes
> separated by a single second, time triallists must be tempted just to
> keep their heads down and go for it, particularly when they have the
> right of way.

True. But that doesn't of itself mean that the dangers are unreasonable.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

dkahn400

James Annan wrote:
> dkahn400 wrote:
> > I would have
> > said it was more meaningful to quote the fatalities pre rider per
> > season rather than fatalities per ride.
>
> The obvious calculation to do would be a per mile (or perhaps per
> hour) basis, since nationally averaged figures for that are already
> available.

Agreed.

> > I think the problems with dual carriageways occur mainly at
> > slip roads and roundabouts. In normal riding there are techniques
> > for dealing with these but in an event where the riders are
> > sometimes separated by a single second, time triallists must be
> > tempted just to keep their heads down and go for it, particularly
> > when they have the right of way.
>
> True. But that doesn't of itself mean that the dangers are
> unreasonable.
Also agreed. My main problem with TT-ing is the pain.

--
Dave...

Tony Raven

James Annan wrote:
>
> Someone who has the stats to hand
> can tell us what the expected number of deaths is - 3 million miles per
> death springs to mind, BICBW.

One death per 20m km for cyclists and roughly the same for pedestrians

Tony

Arthur Clune

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers <wafflycathcs@aol.compomcom> wrote:

: And as for running TTs on dual carriageways, there are *more* accidents on
: single carriageways than on dual carriageways.

Sure. But it's comparing apples with oranges. Overshot a corner and
bit the hedge. One accident. Hey ho. Get hit by a truck. One accident.
Not so hey ho.

If TT'ers could handle their bikes and got off the aero bars sometimes,
it would be better.

This is a sore point for me at the moment. Our local CTT district has
just banned a very safe, quiet course because too riders crashed on it
last year. They crashed because they went round the corners too fast.
We have road races on that course - how dangerous can it be.

This in itself would be annoying, but maybe defensable. However they
have also allowed TT's on the A64 again (a motorway in all but name
with side junctions for mcdonalds etc) and even more madly, a course
on the A19 south of York. This is a single carriageway A road, narrow
and full of trucks. It's sucide on a stick.

Sigh.

I guess my other complaint about TT course choice it's that it makes a
mockery of any athletic competition. Just motorpace everyone and have
done.

Arthur (down on the CTT today)

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

m-gineering

Arthur Clune wrote:

> This is a sore point for me at the moment. Our local CTT district has
> just banned a very safe, quiet course because too riders crashed on it
> last year. They crashed because they went round the corners too fast.

At least they tried to go round! I still remember a time trailist
completely forgetting a very mild corner and just riding headlong into
one of the huge reflecting signs lining the bend!





Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Mark Thompson

> One death per 20m km for cyclists and roughly the same for pedestrians

link?

James Annan

Mark Thompson wrote:

>>One death per 20m km for cyclists and roughly the same for pedestrians
>
>
> link?

kenkifer.com has figures in the region of 3 million HOURS per death
(which looks like a substantially higher estimate that Tony's figure).
Of course it depends who is being measured in which country...

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Tony Raven

Mark Thompson wrote:
>>One death per 20m km for cyclists and roughly the same for pedestrians
>
>
> link?

Extractable from the last table on
http://www.cfit.gov.uk/reports/ebptbench/04.htm

Tony

Pete Biggs

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers wrote:

>> I guess my other complaint about TT course choice it's that it makes
>> a mockery of any athletic competition. Just motorpace everyone and
>> have
>> done.
>
> Any roder caught motorpacing is liable to get eliminated as it's
> cheating, but as with *any sport* there are some people who cheat.
> Not everyone does - I know of quite a few who don't cheat - my son,
> husband, self, and many members of clubs local to me.

They may not mean to cheat but fast moving overtaking vehicles create a
drafting effect even when not cycling directly behind them. This effect
is greater and quite noticeable on trunk roads sometimes.

~PB

JohnB

Pete Biggs wrote:
>
> dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers wrote:
>
> >> I guess my other complaint about TT course choice it's that it makes
> >> a mockery of any athletic competition. Just motorpace everyone and
> >> have
> >> done.
> >
> > Any roder caught motorpacing is liable to get eliminated as it's
> > cheating, but as with *any sport* there are some people who cheat.
> > Not everyone does - I know of quite a few who don't cheat - my son,
> > husband, self, and many members of clubs local to me.
>
> They may not mean to cheat but fast moving overtaking vehicles create a
> drafting effect even when not cycling directly behind them. This effect
> is greater and quite noticeable on trunk roads sometimes.

The slipstreaming effect is a *major* part of time-trialling which is
why riders travel the length and breadth of the country to chase a fast
time. The same goes for head down riding. Watch any time trial and it is
all too evident, despite the well-meaning attempts by a largely
ineffective 'observer' system.

'Competitors' are effectively cheating themselves as fastest times
become the most important factor.
This is so evident around the tea wagons and result boards and within
club competitions,

Riders hardly ever discuss their placings; only what time they achieved
which clearly shows the priority.
Competitions like the BBAR reinforce the problem.
Then there is the pre-occupation with equipment in order to shave
milliseconds off their times.

Yes, there has been a move to 'sporting courses' which is a move in the
right direction but until the pre-occupation with fast times is
overcome, time-trialling will be seen as an irrelevant anachronism for
elderly gentlemen, or an irresponsible activity that damages the public
perception of cycling.

It is sad to see a 'sport' die but I fear unless they move it off the
open road, then it will cease.
I give it 10 years max.

John B
(ex-lorry chaser)

Arthur Clune

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers <wafflycathcs@aol.compomcom> wrote:

:>If TT'ers could handle their bikes and got off the aero bars sometimes,
:>it would be better.

: Careful Arthur, you are tarring all with the same brush, and I for one find
: that totally wrong and offensive.

Well, it's a generalisation to make a point. The standard of bike handling
at most TTs isn't good. There's always exceptions, but the average standard
is lower than in other cycling events I do.

: [re banning course]
: Just goes to show you can have sensible riders & prats on bikes too.

No. It goes to show that the CTT Yorkshire region are a bunch of people
stuck in the past. There was no reason to ban that course at all, and
the two others they have approved this year are very, very dangerous
however you look at it.

:>I guess my other complaint about TT course choice it's that it makes a
:>mockery of any athletic competition. Just motorpace everyone and have
:>done.

: Any roder caught motorpacing is liable to get eliminated as it's cheating, but

As others have pointed out, you missed my point here (though it maybe
wasn't clear). Riding up the A19 on a Saturday afternoon (to pick a
local course) means that *all* the riders are being motorpaced in
effect by the nice stream of cars + trucks going past.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like TT'ing and ride quite a few each year,
but I think it's a real shame the way they are run in this country.

I think we've had this converstation before, but when the whole status
in TT'ing comes from doing a fast time (sub hour, 22 min 10, whatever)
then it takes someone who really doesn't care that much about it to
say "I won't ride fast courses and will let people who aren't better than
be think they are". If you want to get anyway in the BBAR etc you have
to ride the fast courses, and that means you want a lot of traffic
because it makes you go faster.

Why do you think top rides like late starts (more traffic) or Saturday
afternoon TT's (ditto) for fast times?

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

Mark Thompson

> Don't get me wrong, I actually like TT'ing and ride quite a few each
> year, but I think it's a real shame the way they are run in this
> country.

Um, is the way they are run bad 'cos it's on the roads, or bad 'cos riders
go for the fastest time they can?

> Why do you think top rides like late starts (more traffic) or Saturday
> afternoon TT's (ditto) for fast times?

Or they could like late starts so that they don't have to get up at some
godforsaken hour in the morning to travel to the start? The obvious time
for TT's is first light, but that ain't going to get a good turnout!

Having the routes in places with no traffic (race track? disused airfield
taxi lanes?) would be hideously expensive for the riders. You'd also get
no or few new races starting up. Bye bye time trialling :-(

dkahn400

Mark Thompson wrote:

> Um, is the way they are run bad 'cos it's on the roads, or bad 'cos
> riders go for the fastest time they can?

Because the emphasis on absolute time, rather than on finish position,
leads riders and organisers to look for the courses with the heaviest
traffic and the highest proportion of heavy goods vehicles.

1:06 on some courses is harder to achieve than 0:59 on others, but
there is not enough recognition of that fact.

--
Dave...

Arthur Clune

Mark Thompson <pleasegivegenerously@warmmail.com> wrote:

: Um, is the way they are run bad 'cos it's on the roads, or bad 'cos riders
: go for the fastest time they can?

The latter. Nothing wrong with having it on the roads. It's a question of
which roads.

:> Why do you think top rides like late starts (more traffic) or Saturday
:> afternoon TT's (ditto) for fast times?

: Or they could like late starts so that they don't have to get up at some
: godforsaken hour in the morning to travel to the start?

They seem quite happy to get up at some godforsaken hour the rest of the time
though....

: Having the routes in places with no traffic (race track? disused airfield
: taxi lanes?) would be hideously expensive for the riders. You'd also get
: no or few new races starting up. Bye bye time trialling :-(

The reason you would get few entries for a traffic free '10' is that the
times would be "slow". They'd be real mind, but that doesn't count.

I'm not saying TT'ing should move off the roads, just that the current
setup is mad.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness