buying a bike (newbie)

GwG

"Zog The Undeniable" <hrothgar19@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:41d8362a.0@entanet...
> JLB wrote:
>
>> "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot
>> make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who
>> consider price only are this man's lawful prey." - John Ruskin
>
> Ruskin goes on..."It is unwise to pay too much, but it is also unwise to
> pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money, that is
> all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything because the
> thing you bought is incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do.
>

Isn't this where the 'Sale of Goods Act' comes in? ;-)

I have just ordered a Harlem Nimbus bike, from Bid-Up.TV, for the princely
sum of £65.00 + p&p. This is a hardtail bike, with an aluminium frame, and
18 speed Shimano gears. Like others have mentioned, I did not want to spend
£300 - £400 on a bike, only to find that I was not going to use it after a
couple of weeks. If I do take to cycling, I can always upgrade to a better
bike later, having the experience then to make a more informed decision as
to my needs, and I could probably sell the Harlem for nearly as much as I
paid for it. This to me, seems the most cost effective way to go, but
obviously others have different views.

I have a friend who has been into cycling for years, (riding quality bikes),
and he is going to road test the bike for me when it arrives, so I will
report back later and let the group know his comments, good or bad,
including the weight of the bike, which they do not state on the website.

Simon Brooke

in message <cr91tl$its$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, JLB
('JLB@bigbad.demon.co.uk') wrote:

> Not Responding wrote:
>> Martin Wilson wrote:
>>> As an alternative view to many here. I have to say I bought a cheap
>>> bike (no suspension) for £60 and I've been very happy with it.
[snip]
>>>
>>> That isn't a recommendation for a cheap bike I might add but there
>>> certainly not as bad as some people make out here.
>>
>> Good point. Most people here have ridden quality bikes and have seen
>> the world of difference that an extra £150 budget makes. We're
>> forgetting that even a crap bike is still a bike.
>
> I'm not disagreeing, since Martin's experience speaks for itself. Yet
> it is still the fact that an astonishing number of bikes are bought
> each year in the UK, and quite a few obviously get little or no use;
> someone who buys a cheap bike and is quickly disillusioned with its
> performance and its mechanical inadequacies, to the point where they
> abandon it, has not saved money at all. They have wasted every penny
> they have spent.

I see a lot of truly grotty bikes, and I have two worries about them.

The first is that a good few of them are actively unsafe, with
components (brakes and frames, chiefly) which will and do fail under
load.

The second is bikes which are so badly made, so heavy, so unpleasant to
use that they will put people off not just riding that particular bike
but riding bikes at all.

Admittedly the second is more common than the first, but both are bad.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.

Martin Wilson

>Im mechanically minded and prepared to repair/change parts. I
>guess whatever I buy it'll be a mistake, a cheap bike that falls apart,
>or a good bike unused cos Ive lost the urge to cycle !
>
>Hmmm.
>

I think the main warning above all others with regard cheap bikes is
suspension. Cheap suspension doesn't work well or last very long so is
best avoided. A more expensive bike tends to be a lighter bike and a
lighter bike means you can go faster and further with the same amount
of energy therefore making cycling more enjoyable. Many people in this
forum believe that the more expensive bikes as well as being lighter
are also stronger because the components are of higher quality. Thats
not something I believe universally. I don't believe a very low cost
aluminium frame is as strong or has the lifespan of a low cost steel
frame.

One recommendation I would make is consider a Giant brand bike. They
tend to be excellent value and very well made with good components for
their price. As they are a taiwanese brand you are effectively dealing
much more directly with the manufacturer than most other brands. A
typical american brand bike has a taiwanese frame which is shipped to
america where the bike is assembled with foreign made support
components and then shipped over here. This adds massively to costs
with extra transport and more than one company getting profit from the
sale of the bike. Also american firms spend more on pr/advertising on
relatively much lower sales numbers. Its well known that american bike
brands use low cost imports to subsidise manufacture of high end
american made models. I.e. they make a lot more money from there
bottom end imported bikes than those produced in their small scale
factories that sell at premium prices. They are basically using top
end american made products to create brand desire and respect but
selling the vast majority low cost imports with a considerable markup.

Here is a web page from idealbike in taiwan and who they make frames
for;

http://www.idealbike.com.tw/image/logo.html

As you can see they make frames for not only the cheap Apollo
(halfords) type brands but some fairly respected brands.

Notice no Cannondale there. All Cannondales are assembled in america
with american made frames. They are the only large scale bike
manufacturer in the usa.

If you buy a Giant or a Cannondale you can't go far wrong for your
money. Its more difficult with other brands to know exactly what your
getting.

Martin Wilson

>Isn't this where the 'Sale of Goods Act' comes in? ;-)
>
>I have just ordered a Harlem Nimbus bike, from Bid-Up.TV, for the princely
>sum of £65.00 + p&p. This is a hardtail bike, with an aluminium frame, and
>18 speed Shimano gears. Like others have mentioned, I did not want to spend
>£300 - £400 on a bike, only to find that I was not going to use it after a
>couple of weeks. If I do take to cycling, I can always upgrade to a better
>bike later, having the experience then to make a more informed decision as
>to my needs, and I could probably sell the Harlem for nearly as much as I
>paid for it. This to me, seems the most cost effective way to go, but
>obviously others have different views.
>
>I have a friend who has been into cycling for years, (riding quality bikes),
>and he is going to road test the bike for me when it arrives, so I will
>report back later and let the group know his comments, good or bad,
>including the weight of the bike, which they do not state on the website.
>

He won't be road testing it when it arrives because you'll be
assembling it I suspect. Normally they come about 80% assembled and
you might have to put on the front wheel, handlebars, pedals and turn
round and tighten a few things. The gears and brakes might need
adjustment too. Probably worth taking the chain off the chainset and
spinning it to make sure the BB is working ok. Same with the wheels.
Spin the front wheel and test for play and smoothness. Then get out
the oil can. Allow yourself a couple of hours to assemble, adjust,
check and oil.

Hope you like it.

Martin Wilson

>
>I see a lot of truly grotty bikes, and I have two worries about them.
>
>The first is that a good few of them are actively unsafe, with
>components (brakes and frames, chiefly) which will and do fail under
>load.
>
>The second is bikes which are so badly made, so heavy, so unpleasant to
>use that they will put people off not just riding that particular bike
>but riding bikes at all.
>
>Admittedly the second is more common than the first, but both are bad.

What would you prefer though, given a choice between a cheap new bike
or no bike at all which is the decision many would make. If their
looking at this forum their going to see;

1) Buy a more expensive bike which equates to not buying one if you
don't have the money.

2) Buy a secondhand bike which equates to not buying one as many
people don't want a secondhand bike and wouldn't know how to select a
good one.

3) Buy a cheap bike but they won't buy one because their rubbish.

Wouldn't it be better to say buy a cheap bike but be warned it won't
perform as well as a more expensive model and if your at all
interested in cycling upgrade when funds are there.

I think their needs to be a usenet group called 'uk.rec.cycling.cheap'
then perhaps this one could be called 'uk.rec.cycling.brandsnobs' and
it would all be sorted.

GwG

"Martin Wilson" <ebay1@martin66.screaming.net> wrote in message
news:vigjt01mgclivihabbi8e5qf6odc7opu55@4ax.com...
>
>>Isn't this where the 'Sale of Goods Act' comes in? ;-)
>>
>>I have just ordered a Harlem Nimbus bike, from Bid-Up.TV, for the princely
>>sum of £65.00 + p&p. This is a hardtail bike, with an aluminium frame, and
>>18 speed Shimano gears. Like others have mentioned, I did not want to
>>spend
>>£300 - £400 on a bike, only to find that I was not going to use it after a
>>couple of weeks. If I do take to cycling, I can always upgrade to a better
>>bike later, having the experience then to make a more informed decision as
>>to my needs, and I could probably sell the Harlem for nearly as much as I
>>paid for it. This to me, seems the most cost effective way to go, but
>>obviously others have different views.
>>
>>I have a friend who has been into cycling for years, (riding quality
>>bikes),
>>and he is going to road test the bike for me when it arrives, so I will
>>report back later and let the group know his comments, good or bad,
>>including the weight of the bike, which they do not state on the website.
>>
>
> He won't be road testing it when it arrives because you'll be
> assembling it I suspect. Normally they come about 80% assembled and
> you might have to put on the front wheel, handlebars, pedals and turn
> round and tighten a few things. The gears and brakes might need
> adjustment too. Probably worth taking the chain off the chainset and
> spinning it to make sure the BB is working ok. Same with the wheels.
> Spin the front wheel and test for play and smoothness. Then get out
> the oil can. Allow yourself a couple of hours to assemble, adjust,
> check and oil.
>
> Hope you like it.

Thanks Martin, I am pretty competent with mechanics, (after being in the
service industry for 40 years), so assembly should not be a problem. The
bike will be checked thoroughly after full assembly, and before riding, by
both me and my biking friend, if any serious problems are evident, it will
be returned. I am not expecting a Rolls Royce bike for £65.00, but I am
expecting it to be fit for the purpose it was intended. I have been
monitoring the prices that the Nimbus model has fetched in the auctions, and
they have sold for as low as £59.00, and as high as £113.00. The £113.00 was
the starting bid on one auction, they had 5 bikes for sale, and I thought
there is no way they are going to sell at that price, when others have sold
for £59.00, but two bidders paid the £113.00. :-)

Tony Raven

Martin Wilson wrote:
>
> What would you prefer though, given a choice between a cheap new bike
> or no bike at all which is the decision many would make. If their
> looking at this forum their going to see;
>
> 1) Buy a more expensive bike which equates to not buying one if you
> don't have the money.
>
> 2) Buy a secondhand bike which equates to not buying one as many
> people don't want a secondhand bike and wouldn't know how to select a
> good one.
>
> 3) Buy a cheap bike but they won't buy one because their rubbish.
>
> Wouldn't it be better to say buy a cheap bike but be warned it won't
> perform as well as a more expensive model and if your at all
> interested in cycling upgrade when funds are there.
>
> I think their needs to be a usenet group called 'uk.rec.cycling.cheap'
> then perhaps this one could be called 'uk.rec.cycling.brandsnobs' and
> it would all be sorted.

What's wrong with a second hand bike? Lots of people happily buy
second hand cars to get a better quality car at a price they can afford
so why be sniffy about buying a second hand bike?

Tony

James Annan

Martin Wilson wrote:


> I think their needs to be a usenet group called 'uk.rec.cycling.cheap'
> then perhaps this one could be called 'uk.rec.cycling.brandsnobs' and
> it would all be sorted.

And perhaps there should also be
uk.rec.cycling.newbie-with-a-chip-on-his-shoulder.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

GwG

"Tony Raven" <junk@raven-family.com> wrote in message
news:33u2etF457epqU1@individual.net...
>
> What's wrong with a second hand bike? Lots of people happily buy second
> hand cars to get a better quality car at a price they can afford so why be
> sniffy about buying a second hand bike?
>

There is nothing wrong with buying a second hand bike, the problem is
knowing what to look for when buying one.
A newbie is hardly likely to know what to look for, and could end up paying
more for a second hand bike than its original cost, just because the person
selling it has overstated its build quality etc.. Perhaps there should be a
Parkers Guide for bikes, like there is for cars.

Martin Wilson

>Thanks Martin, I am pretty competent with mechanics, (after being in the
>service industry for 40 years), so assembly should not be a problem. The
>bike will be checked thoroughly after full assembly, and before riding, by
>both me and my biking friend, if any serious problems are evident, it will
>be returned. I am not expecting a Rolls Royce bike for £65.00, but I am
>expecting it to be fit for the purpose it was intended. I have been
>monitoring the prices that the Nimbus model has fetched in the auctions, and
>they have sold for as low as £59.00, and as high as £113.00. The £113.00 was
>the starting bid on one auction, they had 5 bikes for sale, and I thought
>there is no way they are going to sell at that price, when others have sold
>for £59.00, but two bidders paid the £113.00. :-)
>

You sound pretty clued up. I doubt if you'll have any real problems.
Once you've given the bike an mot remember to spend time adjusting it
to fit your body. Best to start with the saddle fairly low while you
get the hang of balancing and cornering etc then increase the saddle
height as you get more confident. Also handlebar height and tilt might
need to be changed to suit you. It'll probably take you weeks to get
it just right.

Tony Raven

GwG wrote:
> "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-family.com> wrote in message
> news:33u2etF457epqU1@individual.net...
>
>>What's wrong with a second hand bike? Lots of people happily buy second
>>hand cars to get a better quality car at a price they can afford so why be
>>sniffy about buying a second hand bike?
>>
>
>
> There is nothing wrong with buying a second hand bike, the problem is
> knowing what to look for when buying one.
> A newbie is hardly likely to know what to look for, and could end up paying
> more for a second hand bike than its original cost, just because the person
> selling it has overstated its build quality etc.. Perhaps there should be a
> Parkers Guide for bikes, like there is for cars.
>
>

I'm sure you will find folks here more than helpful if you wanted to ask
questions about what to look for, price etc. Most of us have had
dealings with cheap sub £100 bikes and know the grief they represent
which is why the advice was offered on second hand ones.

Tony

GwG

"Tony Raven" <junk@raven-family.com> wrote in message
news:33v1u9F440iciU1@individual.net...
> GwG wrote:
>> "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-family.com> wrote in message
>> news:33u2etF457epqU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>What's wrong with a second hand bike? Lots of people happily buy second
>>>hand cars to get a better quality car at a price they can afford so why
>>>be sniffy about buying a second hand bike?
>>
>> There is nothing wrong with buying a second hand bike, the problem is
>> knowing what to look for when buying one.
>> A newbie is hardly likely to know what to look for, and could end up
>> paying more for a second hand bike than its original cost, just because
>> the person selling it has overstated its build quality etc.. Perhaps
>> there should be a Parkers Guide for bikes, like there is for cars.
>
> I'm sure you will find folks here more than helpful if you wanted to ask
> questions about what to look for, price etc. Most of us have had dealings
> with cheap sub £100 bikes and know the grief they represent which is why
> the advice was offered on second hand ones.
>
I have already been helped a lot from the comments in this group, so thanks
to you all, and I have printed out Simon Brooke's advice earlier in this
thread on what to look for when buying second hand, so that it is readily
available if the Harlem Nimbus turns out to live up to the expectations ;-)
But just to throw a spanner in the spokes with a rhetorical question, will
the people who paid £113.00 for the Nimbus, (i.e. paid above £100), get a
better bike than those who paid £59.00 for it. ;-)

David Martin

On 4/1/05 9:45 am, in article 33v70hF455ejcU1@individual.net, "GwG"
<nothiswontworkeither@guess.uk.co> wrote:

> But just to throw a spanner in the spokes with a rhetorical question, will
> the people who paid £113.00 for the Nimbus, (i.e. paid above £100), get a
> better bike than those who paid £59.00 for it. ;-)

Of course ;-) The more you pay for something, the better it is.

Everyone knows that spending lots of money on that superlight component will
make the bike so much better.. It's Shiny Toy Syndrome.

...d

Tony Raven

GwG wrote:
>
> I have already been helped a lot from the comments in this group, so thanks
> to you all, and I have printed out Simon Brooke's advice earlier in this
> thread on what to look for when buying second hand, so that it is readily
> available if the Harlem Nimbus turns out to live up to the expectations ;-)
> But just to throw a spanner in the spokes with a rhetorical question, will
> the people who paid £113.00 for the Nimbus, (i.e. paid above £100), get a
> better bike than those who paid £59.00 for it. ;-)
>
>

Nope but I also doubt its worth anything like its £299 "guide price".
Whether its true value is £59, £113 or something else I wouldn't care to
guess.

Tony