Page 2 - Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

04-01.-2005, 02:08 PM

#16

TiMan

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

Not quite. Pantani's hematocrit level dropped to 27% after his ER visit. The staff was very concerned that he would die---until Pantani's doctor appeared and jacked him back up to 37% in a few hours.

The now deceased Marco Pantani was DQed from the 1999 Giro---whilst leading with a too high hematocrit >50%. It was a huge national scandal, and I was there. I still can't believe that the Italians would DQ ther own. But they did!! So much for business motives as is true in nearly all other events.

Bijarne Riis used doctor Luigi Cecchini. So too does Tyler Hamilton and Ivan Basso.

Phonak's Inaki Arratibel took the fall--but it was Luigi's witchcraft that won the medals.

After so many deaths and poor performances by EPO overdosed athletes the focus has moved from high hematocrit to faster moving richer blood.

The RSR-13, thinners, vasodilators and HBOCs can keep the hematrocrits and blood pressure lower whilst speeding up the oxygen flow.

It is the "performance" of transporting the oxygen that makes the greatest difference for sustainable power.

No, the 1995 TDF trophy should go to Luigi, not Bijarne. It's only fair.

Before Michele Ferrari had Lance, he had Berzin and Rominger. He has had a great run after working on Francesco Moser and the hour record with Conconi. All riders with tremendous sustainable power.

good stuff and thanx!

04-01.-2005, 02:26 PM

#17

limerickman

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiMan

Well thats true....but he really didn't get noticed until about 94 at age 32 and then BOOM he was #1 at age 34!....he jumped at least 10 ranking places in less than one year from 95 until he won the tour!

Well as I said I agree with your central point - I was as surprised as anyone else
when he was able to beat the entire TDF peloton at will in 1996.

But I conclude that if Riis's improvement in 1996 raises question marks, Lance
Armstrong's "improvement" is much more suspicious, given his complete ineptitude in the TDF between 1992-1996, compared to his utter domination
from 1999-present.

04-01.-2005, 03:02 PM

#18

TiMan

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Thats true and I concure.....Lance went from a good one day classic rider to SUPERMAN and six tour wins in a row! Questions pop up for sure!

One thing that might have made him the man he is now is a significant drop in body weight from a racing weight of about 170 or so to a tour starting weight of 158.

05-01.-2005, 09:28 AM

#20

limerickman

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

Couple of points on Lance vrs other riders.

Lance was a one-day or 5-day stage race competitor when he started with Michele Ferrari.

Ferrari is a coach who is famous for dialing in a riders best attributes. He has been most successful with Grand Tour and Time Trialists.

Berzin, Rominger and Francesco Moser to name a few. Conconi was the boss with Moser, but Ferrari assisted.

Anyway Lance and Ferrari only worked together for 12-18 months before Lance's hCG levels appeared, and appeared at lethal levels. No man should have an hCG hormone in their system unless they are 1) pregnant 2) having injections for T/E masking or 3)with cancer or 4) both 2 & 3 combined.

Immediately after completing his last Chemotheraphy treatment, post surgery, post radiation, Lance returned to Ferrara, Italy, and Michele to commence the "rebuilding anabolic phase". (within 10 days)

As he recovered and gained back lost muscles---somehow, in the training, a decision was made to avoid building up the "upper body mass" so this was were musch of the weight savings came from.

More emphasis was put on "sustainable power output" and less on "sprinting".

In the end, a GC stage contentor, time trialist and climber replaced the "all rounder" former champ.

Lance was good to go by September 1998, after leaving in October 1996.

Pretty fast recovery compared with my Mom's cancer.

Extraordinary, I would say, especially if all he used were figs and water.

Hmm.
This is my entire difficulty with LA.
Bad enough that he cheats.
But he also invokes the cases of genuinely ill people with cancer.
It's despicable.

Ah, but I'm covering old ground here.

05-01.-2005, 10:43 AM

#21

DiabloScott

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Hmm.
This is my entire difficulty with LA.
Bad enough that he cheats.
But he also invokes the cases of genuinely ill people with cancer.
It's despicable.

Ah, but I'm covering old ground here.

Even Lance's ILLNESS was not genuine?
Lance invoked the cases of genuine cancer patients? Where? Flyer did of course.

My OWN hematocrit has tested above 50% a couple times (just barely, but no drugs involved - regular physicals), and the testing lab showed the normal range to be 40 - 54% and even the UCI allows for high normal readings (I think Cunego has one)... so TiMan is full of crap in this regard.

I think Lance is working the system to the max and walking a tight line but calling him a cheater is without foundation.

Back on topic - good god Bjarne is getting fatter everytime I see him. What an embarassment - worse than having a Tour victory taken away. He reminds me of the Michelin man.

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05-01.-2005, 12:46 PM	#22
TiMan Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Recovery is the Golden Fleece and almost nobody gets it right Posts: 484	Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked? I am an sports orthopedic surgeon and I can tell you that although some labs list the upper range as 54% it is extremely rare to see a crit of even 47%. 999 out of 1000 men will have a crit of between 40 and 45%. Why do you think the "cut off" level in pro races is 50%!! Most men can get their crit up to the upper 40's with altitude training for months You are either very lucky and rare to have a 50% crit OR you were dehydrated. Fact of the matter is Riis either dopped or used EPO to get his nearly 60% crit....it's that simple.

06-01.-2005, 01:04 AM

#23

limerickman

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiabloScott

Just to re-iterate.
LA's illness was genuine - sorry for the confusion.

Regarding Mr.Riis - yes he appears to have raided Mr.Ullrich's secret pie store,
of late.

06-01.-2005, 02:52 AM

#24

El Loto

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Location: Aberdeen, Scotland, UK

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiMan

Like DiabloScott said Cunego has a haemocrit over 50% but his is natural and thus he is exempt from taking a two-week "break" from competition. Now Cunego is world number one are you going to accuse him of visiting a special doctor who gives him a boost now and again? However what i have read here about Riis is pretty interesting. Looking at some of the photos from the 96 tour he does look almost mesmerised and not very human.

06-01.-2005, 02:53 AM	#25
El Loto Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland, UK Posts: 537	Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked? Look at some of these photos of Bjarne http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...Doff%26sa%3D G

06-01.-2005, 06:21 AM	#26
meehs Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota Posts: 1,845	Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked? Considering nearly all of the pros were (and still are) racing with artificially boosted crit levels and before that steroids and before that amphetamines and etc., etc., etc... I would say no. His Tour win shouldn't be revoked. JMO!

06-01.-2005, 06:23 AM

#27

meehs

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Regarding Mr.Riis - yes he appears to have raided Mr.Ullrich's secret pie store, of late.

LOL! Haven't seen him lately. Has he gotten a little large? As I recall he really trimmed down the year he won the TdF. He wasn't always a really slim rider.

06-01.-2005, 06:58 AM

#28

limerickman

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by meehs

LOL! Haven't seen him lately. Has he gotten a little large? As I recall he really trimmed down the year he won the TdF. He wasn't always a really slim rider.

Meehs, he's in the Jan Ullrich "Secret Bun Factory" : the man has exploded !

06-01.-2005, 10:23 AM

#29

jcthomasjr

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiMan

He had a crit of almost 60% bro....DURING THE TOUR!

I am quite aware of Bjarne Riis' performance in the TdF. Did he fail a test at the time?

I am not advocating that he was a clean rider, nor am I admitting that I think he was a dirty rider. I am just looking at the facts and based on the tests that were administered at the time and what the rules were, he won the race.

Another thing, in regards to some of the other posts I have read. I am not a big Lance Armstrong fan, but I am a cancer survivor who is also a cyclist. I had a worse chemotherapy regime than Lance, plus I don't have a hamstring muscle in my right leg due to my cancer surgery, but I am a far better cyclist now then before I was diagnosed. How do you explain that? Oh, and I don't dope either. I am sure that after surviving cancer LA had a new lease on life and with his low body weight was able to reasses his training regime and become a different type of rider.

But, I digress. I still don't think Riis should have his tour win revoked.

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11-01.-2005, 03:12 AM

#30

tcklyde

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Re: Mr. 60%, should he have his tour win revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Hmm.
This is my entire difficulty with LA.
Bad enough that he cheats.
But he also invokes the cases of genuinely ill people with cancer.
It's despicable.

Ah, but I'm covering old ground here.

Look, I don't know if LA dopes (anymore than I know if any other pro dopes), but suggesting that LA degrades cancer patients is just dumb. LA has raised millions of dollars for cancer research and devotes a significant part of year to raising money. That's a very admirable thing, something that deserves recognition and appreciation independent of his success.

Plenty of big name atheletes just blow their money on cars and real estate and clubs and like showing up in the papers. People love LA because he's used his fame well. There is nothing despicable about that. Try visiting www.laf.org -- how many other pros spend that much effort helping other people?

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Last edited by tcklyde : 11-01.-2005 at 03:18 AM.

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