Page 3 - Kennedy CycleFit

02-05.-2005, 04:56 PM	#31
smartie Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berwick, Vic. Australia Posts: 79	Re: Kennedy CycleFit Looks like you are a success story Roo. I'd have been back to the LBS, thrown the bike back at them and claimed my money back as the bike was severely unsuited for the intended purpose. Or in the least gone to another shop and seen what they had to say about your fit. I suppose research is the key and to not trust only one shop to get your size right when in the process of looking for a bike. If there are two identical bikes in two shops for sale and they advise differing sizes, alarm bells would start to ring. I took a different approach for my new bike. I measured up on CAD my existing bike (which was comfortable) and then took the dimensions from all the bikes i was interested in to find the sizes which were most compatible. Took a while but once i bought it a few tweaks here and there had it about right for me. My last 100k'r showed a few small niggles but these are being tuned out with some thought and patience. I do believe though, if a bike isn't comfortable straight away with a little bit of tweaking it never will be. You will just learn to ignore it or make up for it by making your body alter to a position which may be unnatural to you and in the mean time spend lots of money trying to find a solution to an ill advised purchase (and i blame the bike shops there). No real offence to Kennedy, he has found a market niche for something your LBS should be doing right in the first place. __________________ "I'm most dangerous when i'm cornered. I fall to pieces so quickly people get hit by the shrapnel." - Zaphod Beeblebrox, Galactic President.

02-05.-2005, 07:05 PM	#32
rooman Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Me!bourne, Lat/Long -37.9870,145.0419 Posts: 1,160	Re: Kennedy CycleFit You're absolutley right, research is the key ( most though dont have the time and fall right into the LBS sales pitch for that month's sales targets) If we all had the time, the money and the willingness to actually look after our own interests better, we would go to several custom builders, have a CAD assessment and a fit, get their dimensions, compare them, sit down with some one we trust to figure it all out on what dimensions and geometry will do for our physiology and aspirations try and solve that puzzle and then get the bike tailor made and live/ride happily ever after . Fortunately there are plenty of good "craftsmen" ( not being gender specific here- it just makes sense to say that) around here in Oz to have a custom made hand-built rather than the mass produced from the LBSs.... infact now a custom is very competitive with the Wisconson Model T, or the Japanese and Taiwanese mass product, and even many from Europe. So we have choices, price is more attractive, its just having the time and patience to endure the process. Bottom line, we need more people riding more often, and we need motorists to share the road better. Roo PS: dont forget the Melbourne Wheels for Justice ride this Sat the 7th from Fed Square leaving at 9-30am for Parlt. Hse, be there with black, red or blue armbands, or all three and a water bottle with a message...spread the word. see this: http://robbieroo.blogspot.com/ or look at other posts in c/f for Australia & NZ. Roo

03-05.-2005, 02:29 PM

#33

Cipo

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 10

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Hi Roo,

I take your point. If the bike shop had done a better job when I got my first bike, Kennedy would not have had to make such radical changes to my bike. I hold no grudges against John, he is filling a void and I know most people who see him walk away happy. I would not go there again because I now know quite a bit more myself and have found a bike shop that is trustworthy and will do just as good a job.

So moving on....can I ask you something that should probably be a separate post. If a rider is sitting on their perineum instead of their sit bones is it the saddle, the saddle set up, or the rider?

Cipo

Quote:

Originally Posted by rooman

Hi Cipo,

sounds like you had an interesting experience, one that I can relate to, I had a "hack frame" read "a frame of dimensions and geometry that didnt suit the aspirations or physiology of the rider."

I was a newby, I bought a high end Italian steel bike from a reputable bike shop for $3000, its was all set to go and according to them "perfect for me", well it gave me the downhill shimmies something awfull, I went back , they suggested I change the original steel fork for a carbon one, that would "dampen the resonance" they said.... so out I go, hit the hard Kilometers, first hint of a down hill a cross wind or some bumpy road at speed and whoa, I was nearly off, every time....I had spent over $400 on the fork, fitting it and the "drop string set-up" they offered for $50 extra.

Made no difference, I was aching in the hands, my feet were burning, my knees ached and stabbed me back, had trouble breathing/tight chest, my perineum had developed a numbness whilst riding I figured was now a long term injury and my back was a pain arena from sit bones to neck...., they too said , "ride more you'll get used to it!", not "well the frame is a bit small for you and the seat could be longer, and the cranks longer, the stem higher, the bars wider, all of the above"...nadda, just bye, have fun! and smiled at me.....

So I ventured around looking for a solution, and by accident walked into Kennedy's.

The first thing he asked was "what do you want from your riding?".

I said, "I am not that young any more, Ive been an athlete, but not seriously a rider, now I need low impact, high aerobic excercise , I want to lose weight, get fitter, get out, do bunch rides and go from there, maybe down the way, some competitive rides", OK, we made the apppointment and I arrived with my road bike, shoes, and $180 for the fit ( at that time).

You know the fit drill, so during that we had suggestions of:

" for you to use the bike you have, .... and, until you develop more riding strength, stamina and skill to be rid of the symptoms you have,..... your position requires changes to your set up now........ and again in two to three months when you're fitter, & more used to riding........ and adjustments will be necessary until you settle into the style of riding that will come from your mind/body/bike interaction......." noting that my fit will be different for Road, as opposed to Track, as opposed to Racing in short crits & TTs etc....

OK as for cost and components, we had choices of light (read carbon & $$s) or utility ( read alloy and $$Ss but less) I went for utitlity ( mainly FSA or generic bits) and ended up with a wider bar, raised and longer stem, longer seat post, longer seat.

I was just plain too big for the bike I had bought, I was not prepared to shell out for a new one and said I'd stick with that frame & transmission, and (thought to myself I would probably get a custom later on)...but for now, I wanted to make do with what I had, smarting that I had already unwisely thrown $3000+ at a bike that didnt suit me. ( Sound familiar?).

So I paid my fit fee, bought the parts, John & a mechanic both fitted them and my riding became heaven, from the first ride.

I was more open and could breathe better, somewhat more upright, so my hands and butt bore my ample weight more evenly and my back had less strain, I could see more of the road ahead in this natural position and hence no more neck pain, and my sit bones actually sat in the saddle on the right place and goodbye pain down there....( but if I sat forward it came back when I moved off my sit bones, stands to figure, the sit bones are the place to bear your weight not the perineum, and we have to teach the body to sit properly..that took time ( hence John's statement to you and to me- give it time". I lost the down hill shimmy largely, but it is still there on that bike a touch as the frame is too small , that I cant change, and it is a steel bike which allows the shimmy resonance to develop, easier than alloy or carbon. I just touch my knees to the top bar in descent and that dampens the vibration, and I move forward and lower to the top bar. Down hill stability is now there, but I have to work for it.

So, with perserverence and some dedication and willingness to accept advice I am happy to say my Kennedy experience has re-invigorated my life on the bike. I've made adjustments with John since then and at no charge, (I am sure I do buy a lot of coffee at his in-store café tho!)

I am glad your new bike from the LBS (local bike shop?) suits you better and you too are a happier rider from the experiences

I now have a track bike, (fitted by John) a ride to the shops-Hybrid, fitted..etc and am activley training for Masters events later this year, I am doing 1000+ klms a month on the road, 10 hours on the track, not a skerrick of pain, discomfort or ache, other than my heart rate from the interval work outs, I am enjoying my riding more than ever and looking forward to a healthy, comfortable,...well maybe competitively uncomfortable, but riding without pain from the riding itself...the rest is up to me.

I try not to shoot messengers, just like to get to the bottom of their message and see what the real problem is, seems we have done that ! Good luck and ride safe!

cheers Roo

03-05.-2005, 06:07 PM	#34
531Aussie Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 5,073	Re: Kennedy CycleFit John is a legend and a great bloke! In fact, I was there just today getting a great deal on a Roselli carbon fork I've been studying on and off for the last few years, and have therefore had very little money. John understood that I ain't rich, and has sold me SO much cheap stuff over the last five years that it's amazing! Oh, but I haven't had a setup......yet Last edited by 531Aussie : 03-05.-2005 at 06:53 PM.

03-05.-2005, 07:34 PM

#35

rooman

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Me!bourne, Lat/Long -37.9870,145.0419

Posts: 1,160

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Hi Cipo,

from what little I know about seat geometry ( maybe the two Italian Selle's or Fi'z'ik, or Bontrager could help out on this one much better than me !), its a nightmare to work out as below are just some of the issues: -

the rider's position, ( sitting forward to sprint, centred to sit up or way back to climb seated, and each of these by time in that position)
the length of saddle from tip to sit bones alignment,
the thickness of saddle through the perineum area,
the firmness of the saddle under the sitbones
the contour at that area, and the perineum
the material and construction in the two areas ( gel, air, leather, plastic, carbon shell,)
The angle/level of the saddle, if up or down can add unnecessary pressure, and you slip forward or back either by design(Tri) or bad setup.
the weight of the rider and
the width of the saddle in the nose area as it draws back to the flatter area across the sit bones
plus the cockpit reach/height for you, and the pressure that bears when you lean forward naturally to settle in, especially on the drops.

these are some of the factors of query, but also dont forget

the saddle suspension, and
the amount of adaptability or acceptance the perineum has made to your riding style and
basic perineum health and dimensions, and (finally)
the degree of pressure you naturally can endure, that is in fact "pain-free" (as opposed to functional pain, we think we are experiencing through stress or other injury trauma, when no physical injury is actually being caused or sending any pain signals, but we "feel pain" anyway! eg:Mediterranean Back Sydnrome viz:Functional Overlay)

If there was a formula for all these we would be oh so comfortable......

confused...its a nightmare to resolve easily, and only those who have done a physical study of our anatomy, a scope of our riding style and an assessment of our fitness and application to task, can come close to getting an answer, and then they may be wrong as we all have huge variations in our intimate physiology, due to a myriad of factors.

But at the end of the day there are only so many variables. Hence why you see so many different saddles on the shelf, and why so many may look very much the same but they are in fact substantially different due to adjustment in the specification of one or more of the factors above...

that is why many saddles look the same as we go from shop to shop, but are, in fact, hugely different and their components spell a huge difference in price as well, on a seemingly similar item.

For my own saddle, for instance, my bike came with a Selle San Marco Race Gel seat, it felt OK at first, it had a neat indentation under the equipment and looked pretty swish to boot. But as I am a big bugger, I actually needed a longer saddle, with a wider sit bone position, a wider perineum spread, but a bigger, longer wider Gel section under the perineum, I also needed a longer rail and a better seat suspension than the original.... this meant my original saddle which probably cost around $150, wasnt much good for me on a road bike...but in fact it was pretty much perfect for me on my track bike, as there my position is much more forward, I am out of the saddle a lot anyway, the dimensions are finer for close thigh action and high cadence riding (110-140+).
The new saddle for my road bike came out at $250 like yours, I too looked around but I found it actually more expensive by a few bucks in other LBS's. Good saddles arnt cheap, when you start to add the bits in spec, that cost, ( suspension, gel, titanium, carbon, longer rails, indents, cut outs, splits, and the good ones are hand made...it gets up there) . Just look at a classic Brooks leather saddle , loved by long distance tourers, they look so simple, but they are very expensive and oh so nice on a classic bike, but not too practical in competition.

My Hybrid bike came with a huge lounge seat by Velo, it too had a perineum indent, it looked groovy by hybrid standards ( A GIANT el-cheapo by the way) , but as a bike, it is more set up to ride in an upright position, all day, as long as I dont want to ride for extended stretches over 30kph. Then the saddle is too flexible with no support, you wobble , slip and slide all over it at speed or high cadence.

Now I suppose this may have helped or hindered you, in solving the question you pose.... I do think tho, that a good assessment, a good fit and a bit of close looking at your riding style, capability on holding a position ( back or forward for extended times ( up to say 15-20 mins) and you can work out what you need. You do have to be on your sit bones though for the time when you are generating seated power, this puts great pressure forward if you are leaning heavily forward in the climb and if your perineum is a bit ...ummm shall we say more ample than many , then pressure will be felt and a numbness may follow, and the search goes on for the saddle to match the physiology and the riding style.

I am inclined to think in your case it may be you, plus you may still sit a bit forward, and your perineum could be either a bit more ample or a bit more sensitive than suits aggresive riding in that position. So perhaps either you sit back futher and get use to it, or you look for a contoured saddle that sits under where you want to be, not where you should be. As you said you had pain in the perineum before the change and after the change , you may not have really adjusted your body position relative to your pedals when you stand to attack in a sprint of surge on a hill and when you sit back in the saddle you sit back too forward and not on your sit bones...this is technique, I too did that for ages, but I finally got the hang of it and I no longer have that problem.

Of course we all should not remain seated in the one position anyway for too long, at least every 15-20 minutes, get out of the saddle, stand on the pedals, rev a bit, get the blood back into the butt cheeks and the sit bones and the perineum , and all will be forgiven from down there...., remember, "its off the ground, so its got to be fed"

Long winded bugger I know, but maybe this can help a few others work through some of the issues that we all get to face as we get out and ride more..which naturally more should do , more often!

cheers

Roo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cipo

__________________

I think..that the greatest benefit to cyclists would ensue if government were to..gradually signify and produce society's view that cycling is a legitimate form of roadway transportation, open to all on an equal basis of proper skills and responsibilities that are easily attained and exercised.(John Forester)

Last edited by rooman : 03-05.-2005 at 07:44 PM. Reason: typos, like who can spell after cocktail hour anyway!!

03-05.-2005, 08:55 PM

#36

Cipo

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 10

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Thanks Roo,

I'm sure my answer lies in there somewhere now I just need to digest it all. Incidentally your saddle needs (quoted below) sound very much the same as mine so do you mind me asking what saddle you ended up with.

I'm about to try a Fizik Arione

Cheers

Cipo

Quote:

Originally Posted by rooman

But as I am a big bugger, I actually needed a longer saddle, with a wider sit bone position, a wider perineum spread, but a bigger, longer wider Gel section under the perineum, I also needed a longer rail and a better seat suspension than the original...

03-05.-2005, 09:43 PM

#37

rooman

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Me!bourne, Lat/Long -37.9870,145.0419

Posts: 1,160

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cipo

Thanks Roo,

what saddle you ended up with.

I got a Selle Italia Nixé Gelflow , when they were first released, hard to get then, but like dogs bollocks now, so a lot cheaper, I think current retail for a new one is between $130 and $180 depending on the LBS stock levels

According to web this is part of the pitch on it :-

"A sophisticated rail with technically advanced design features outlines the character of this saddle: high tech and aggressive.

TitaniumAlloy/ Carbon composite rail absorbs road vibrations like no other saddle.
3 elastomers further enhance this saddles comfort (suspension)
Genuine Gel insert creates a contact area for the soft tissue of the rider
Weight 285 grams
Size 273* 140mm"

Ive read mixed raves on the arione, seems to suit some more than others...so best to try and get hold of whatever you fancy for a test ride or ten...
cheers

03-05.-2005, 10:34 PM

#38

rooman

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Me!bourne, Lat/Long -37.9870,145.0419

Posts: 1,160

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cipo

have a look at this from CyclingNews.com's tech specs, its a good comment on saddle design concepts and some of the things we have covered in our posts
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php...le_italia_signo

04-05.-2005, 01:51 PM

#39

Billy bragge

Registered User

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 1

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Quote:

Originally Posted by 531Aussie

John is a legend and a great bloke!

In fact, I was there just today getting a great deal on a Roselli carbon fork

I've been studying on and off for the last few years, and have therefore had very little money. John understood that I ain't rich, and has sold me SO much cheap stuff over the last five years that it's amazing!

Oh, but I haven't had a setup......yet

I agree, yep good value and a great result. I had an old frame "cocked up" and the difference was amazing. Then I got a custom frame built by JK and it is magnificent - fits like a comfortable pari of shoes (or jeans, shirt, for that matter!)

I hope you're all going on the Justice Ride this Saturday, check it out on: http://bicyclejustice.blogspot.com. Together we can make a difference and since we all enjoy riding on the road we need to protest about this travesty of justice!!!

Incidentally, I will be wearing the Kennedy CycleFit gear - fits quite well too!

25-05.-2005, 11:55 PM

#40

531Aussie

Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posts: 5,073

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Quote:

Originally Posted by rooman

, I bought a high end Italian steel bike from a reputable bike shop for $3000, its was all set to go and according to them "perfect for me", well it gave me the downhill shimmies something awfull, I went back , they suggested I change the original steel fork for a carbon one, that would "dampen the resonance" they said.... so out I go, hit the hard Kilometers, first hint of a down hill a cross wind or some bumpy road at speed and whoa, I was nearly off, every time....I had spent over $400 on the fork, fitting it and the "drop string set-up" they offered for $50 extra.

Made no difference, I was aching in the hands, my feet were burning, my knees ached and stabbed me back, had trouble breathing/tight chest, my perineum had developed a numbness whilst riding I figured was now a long term injury and my back was a pain arena from sit bones to neck...., they too said , "ride more you'll get used to it!", not "well the frame is a bit small for you and the seat could be longer, and the cranks longer, the stem higher, the bars wider, all of the above"...nadda, just bye, have fun! and smiled at me.......

So I ventured around looking for a solution, and by accident walked into Kennedy's.........

.........So I paid my fit fee, bought the parts, John & a mechanic both fitted them and my riding became heaven, from the first ride.. ........

...........I am happy to say my Kennedy experience has re-invigorated my life on the bike. I've made adjustments with John since then and at no charge..........

..........I am enjoying my riding more than ever.........

What type of bike is it and which shop sold it to you?

please let us know, you could be saving me a lot of money

09-06.-2005, 12:51 PM

#41

dowlingjlm

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitrous

Thinking of taking the new roadie down to Black Rock to get a CycleFit. Anyone been fitted by Kennedy? How did you find it? Worthwhile?

Hi

I got referred to John several years ago by a guy who did triathalon. I was bit sceptical at first, but after observing John fitting people on bikes (he didn't mind me doing this), he seemed to know what he was doing. A lot of people came from all over the country literally. Kennedy says to people he has fitted thousands of people, he even pulls some of the manual files out to show you, if you think he is full of BS. That got me over the scepticism and cost hurdle. I ultimately had a bike made by John, now 4 years old. It is in great condition, and I have done a bit over 6,500 km on it. I don't race, but enjoy Around the Bay, Beach Road and similar rides. During the period, I have never had a back, leg, hand or knee hiccup. I can also indicate, that I understand how these things occur after spending some time with John (again watching what he does). I had my wifes bike tuned up, so that she could do Around the Bay and other rides with me on her old bike. Similarly, never a problem because her bike fitted well. You might think that this sounds a bit gushy, but I have been so happy with what John has done, that a few months back I had John make a new bike for my wife - worth every penny. Not cheap, but worth it. No hassle in taking it back for initial adjustment etc. John is not a communicator in a corporate style, but be assured, he knows bikes! He also wasn't bad when he raced as a former world champ. He will probably tell you that himself - modesty is not one of his virtues.

For all of the noise, I found the service thoroughly money well spent. So far, I think its around $8,500. Don't need to say much more.

JD

09-06.-2005, 01:18 PM

#42

rooman

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Me!bourne, Lat/Long -37.9870,145.0419

Posts: 1,160

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Quote:

Originally Posted by dowlingjlm

I certainly agree with you and happy to add to that JD, .............he also is a wealth of considered advice on fitness training, road and track technique and bunch etiquette.

If you want to see a smoother more tactically perfect and skilled rider both on the road and on the track you would be hard pressed to go beyond JK.

This comes to his customers way beyond what can be pulled from the web, or out of a text book. He has the smarts and the experience to deliver...he doesnt have to be polite, he doesnt have to be mushy to you, he delivers the facts, as softly as the circumstances permit...if anyone is too wussy to accept that then maybe those other "coaches" out there are welcome to them...

John doesnt "coach" in the traditional sense, if he did put up a shingle as a full time coach, all the others would have very little business, but he is there for his customers and those who appreciate that benefit way beyond what they might pay in dollar terms for a fit and some parts or a new frame!

Oh and he proudly asserts he has no "competitors". He is JK, there is only one, and for many thousands its true!.

* free ad for JK now concludes* ....* the film ends..mainly visually!!*
*soft musics fades to vision of knights bearing coconuts simulating riding into medieval sunset*

Last edited by rooman : 09-06.-2005 at 01:21 PM. Reason: typo

16-06.-2005, 09:08 AM

#43

brallings

Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 5

Re: Kennedy CycleFit

Generally what happens is that he will move your seat post backwards and try and lift the bars. The thing is that you spend $250 to get measured up and then he goes and eyeballs it anyway when you sit on the bike so you do end up wondering what the money was spent on.

Really he could do all of this without the science as he does not really use this. That said he is good to talk to and he will send you down the right track. I paid the $400 to get my bike changed but since then I have taken off all of the things that he put onto this and have added a spacer, $5 part, to lift my handlebars and I am very happy with the current position. I race and train so I spend enough time on the bike to get hurt if it is not right.

He can save you a lot of grief as you start off but really even after he has done his work you will still need to find the position that you really like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitrous

Thinking of taking the new roadie down to Black Rock to get a CycleFit. Anyone been fitted by Kennedy? How did you find it? Worthwhile?

30-06.-2005, 10:27 AM	#44
whtdc2 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6	Re: Kennedy CycleFit lay back seat post, high rise stem, + talk +talk, (try to sell you some more parts) $200+, thank you very much!! money well spend??

06-07.-2005, 03:52 PM	#45
bourneo Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4	Re: Kennedy CycleFit I can also strongly recommend The Bicycle Superstore in Mentone. Talk to Sean Godley. Very knowledgeable on aspects of cycling and highly unlikely to charge $200 bucks.

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