Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Perro Loco

Most of what I read as "proof" that Lance Armstrong is doping borders on conjecture and reads very similar to the latest conspiracy theories. Being a dye in the wool skeptic I am unconvinced one way or the other. Fact- Cycling has a significant drug problem. Extent is hard to quantify, as data tends to be unreliable. From semi-reliable scources the average hematocrit at the Tour De France has declined since 1998 and in one report the hematocrit at the tour de Suisse has declinded from 1996. Based on actual empiric data from the journal Nature recombinant Erythropoietin usage was extensive in the 1998 Tour despite the first use of the 50% rule. Recently, the more extensive testing and participation of legal authorities APPEARS to have some effect on the extent of doping. I repeat appears, as data is either scant or unreliable. Regarding Armstrong, I find it amazing with so many legal authorities and investigative reporters that nothing more concrete can be found. Suspicions will remain as he is succesful in a sport with a known drug problem.

micron

There's actually an interview with Armstrong in 1997, when he has finished chemo, where he says he didn't lose weight as a result of the chemo because he was stuffing his face in the canteen. He also says that given the choice between living life cancer free and never racing again v. winning and there being even the slightest chance of the cancer coming back, he'd choose never to race again. In short, this is not the hyper motivated, skinny as a whippet Armstrong that we are sold as the reason for his sudden ability to win the TdF at will.

And yet his amazing Tour results are apparently entirely due to the fact that he lost weight and got motivated. As Anquetil was fond of saying 'you don't win the TdF on vitamins and mineral water'. The other great pros knew it and knew what they had to do. To say that a businessman of Armstrong's savvy is as naive about doping in the sport as he would have us believe strikes me, I have to say, as total bollox.

micron

Mark Gorski, gold medallist 1984 Olympics. US Cycling team achieves best ever results.

US Cycling team admits to using autologous blood doping in 1984...

meb

Where have the recent posts on this thread been moved to?

hombredesubaru

Your information is incorrect. Triamcinolone most certainly can be and is absorbed through the skin, although that is not the intended use. The same with steroid eye drops as well, all very well known and documented medical facts.

The results were not made public, they were leaked from the private medical dossier and doping controls to the French press and only then did UCI issue a public statement clarifying that the test was not a positive and there were medical sanctions to take the drug, and that the test revealed only trace amounts in any case, and not a positive tests for steroids. Get your facts right.

Yes, Lance declared on his medical form that he was not taking medication because he wasnt, a fact re-iterated by his oncologist midway through that tour in 1999 when folks started to publically doubt Lance, and claim he was on a monster performance drug from his oncologists. The fact that he is on no medication at all separates him from many many other riders in the Tour such as Galdeano, Beloki etc who are asthmatic and take prescription inhalants etc which are banned performance enhancers.

Since steroids such as triamcinolone decrease the immune system response, and in the case of someone recovering from cancer would increase the risk of relapse, does anyone really think that Armstrong would run that risk. Not in a million years folks.

Geez, what about some real dopers like Museeuw? Anyone want to take back his Paris Roubaix which Hincapie would have won when he rode George off his wheel with 40 km to go. I do!!

micron

Zulle - didn't he used to ride on the ONCE team that was accused of running a systematic doping programme throughout the 90s - the time that one Johann Bruyneel was riding for them.

Bruyneel, Merckx, Ferrari, Carmichael, Gorski, Armstrong's closest advisors - all with direct links to doping. Yet our boy Armstrong is not only drug free (we'll forget all the EPO - that had a legitimate use for the cancer recovery) but can beat known dopers hands down. Gosh, I'm surprised he doesn't wear a cape and his underpants over his tights.

hombredesubaru

[QUOTE=Flyer]I think you are confusing testosterone boosting with "corticosteroid treatments" which made for entirely different reasons and benefits.

Barry Bonds used the "cream" which was one of several ways to ingest the male hormone (testosterone). If you expect a urine test, you will also need an injection of hCG so as to keep your T/E ratio 6 to 1 or less.

btw: 2.5 to 1 is normal so you have lots of wiggle room to overdose.

Insofar as "corticosteroids" are concerned, the suppression of adrenal function is needed during sleep. Hence the 10:00pm injections of 10 milligrams. This is because the athlete has already been "topped off" for testosterone, growth hormones, EPO, insulin, glusoce, vitamins, iron, Iterlukins etc...

If the adrenal & pituitary glands actually functioned during the night (which is normal for undoped people) the chemistry will become unbalanced.

Hence, one drug begets yet another.

The corticosteroids can also be used to increase performance during the day by 1) masking pain, 2) anti-inflamatory effects.

Obviously, unlike HGH, insulin, saline feeds, you do not want to use cortcoids daily for long periods. But for a time trial or stage race, there just the ticket.

Oh, and they are INJECTED into the buttocks for best results. Saddle cream is a nice cover story.

Alex Zulle, (2nd to Lance in 1999) used injections, not creams.

During a Grand Tour the medical treatments are done on a "trauma basis". Injections trump creams for drug delivery.

And Museeuw (no actual proof yet--just like Lance) but how about Zulle. He was on the very same podium with Lance--and admitted to corticosteroid injections, and EPO, and HGH, and stimulants.

What about Alex? He is as clean as Lance.[/QUOT

I am not confusing anything. You simply chose not to respond to any of the facts I listed:
Lance used a skin cream to treat a saddle sore.
Topically applied steroid creams do result in small amounts of systemically absorbed steroid.
This resulted in trace amounts of triamcinolone turning up in his urine.
Yawn.
No doping.
As to your intimate knowledge of cream, doping, ratios in urine etc perhpas you can clarify how all of this knowledge accrued, but as for Lance it is pretty clear.

No dope.

tas1978

So many drugs, so little effective tests. Can you imagine what's going to happen to the sport when nanotechnology catches up with doping?
It's not unrealistic that within the next 50 years there will be "blood stream robots" that have such a large capacity for holding oxygen, people who have the robots in their arteries will be able to hold their breath for up to an hour.
What will then happen to the sport?

Perro Loco

although a problem exists with regards to doping in cycling I think one must also realise that a modicum of progress has been made.

http://www.theolympian.com/home/new.../7689_ARC.shtml
http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/6399.0.html

Just a few articles.
Average hematocrit has fallen over the past few years- although some of this may be due to hemodilution with saline or other volume expanders these are short lived solutions and more recently the UCI has made efforts to not give the individual enough warning time.
Regarding RSR13, a test has been developed that will detect minute traces 36 hours after usage (developed with the aid of the pharmecuetical company for those Pharm Co/Athletic conspiracy types).
Rapid Commun Mass Spectrom. 2001;15(24):2379-82
This test was advertised to be in place for the past TdF. I haven't verified wether they actualy used it. I will try and do this.
Tests have also been developed to look for hemaglobin substitues and have been utilized. To date no evidence of usage.

Quote:

Zorzoli said they had also made significant progress in detecting illegal blood transfusions which some riders claim has made a return to the sport. However the UCI doctor said no samples taken so far this season showed any use of synthetic hemoglobin - a product which can boost performance by increasing the oxygen in the blood. Zorzoli said they had also made significant progress in detecting illegal blood transfusions which some riders claim has made a return to the sport. However the UCI doctor said no samples taken so far this season showed any use of synthetic hemoglobin - a product which can boost performance by increasing the oxygen in the blood.

Some of these compounds may be of limited usage as repeated and even first time usage can be associated with significant side effects- Gastrointestinal pain (see Manzano)- possible anaphylaxis with subsequent usage. If these compounds are so readily available and effective, why are athletes going to the trouble of using and risking homologous blood transfusions?

Also the use of profiling- following an athletes blood values over time is helpful.

I am not naive, a significant number of pro cyclists use dopping products however progress is being made. More money is needed and Athletes themselves could do a lot. I think with public sentiment finnaly changing and sponsors being more concerned and finnaly the UCI and TdF admitting there is a problem has helped a lot.