Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

gntlmn

I drank about 40 ounces of coffee about a month ago, and it kept me awake for more than 40 hours. That would be less than seven 6 oz cups, which is the way a coffee serving is usually measured. Coffee and green tea both have a dramatic effect on my bp and nervous system. If you drink it every day, your system adapts somewhat, but I clearly have a more sensitive reaction to caffeine than most. It might enhance my one day performance, but I can't see that coffee would help me in a Tour. It disturbs my sleep too much. I'm a sound sleeper, but not if I drink coffee. I might as well jump off a cliff.

gntlmn

Let's examine some very important facts. For one, Armstrong was diagnosed in fall of 1996 with cancer. It was not caught in the early stages. It was advanced. This means that he had had cancer for quite some time. It is not known how long he had it, but when it was discovered, it had progressed from the point of origin, which was testicular, to other areas, most notably his lungs and brain.

The thing about this is that he had that lump in the original key area for quite some time, perhaps years. I'd have to look that up to try to get a better idea, but if you look down there and see a lump, but it's been there for quite some time, and you do a lot of riding, I can see how you might fool yourself. You might think the first day you see it that you might be putting a little too much pressure on that area from so many hours in the saddle, and as a result, it doesn't seem quite normal. You might conclude it's kind of like an internal callus, the body's reaction to extended pressure over a long period of time in the saddle. When you can't seem to muster much more than one day rides, but you can ride at a high level on those rides, you might conclude that that is just the way you are. But the thing is, just because you haven't been diagnosed with cancer doesn't mean you don't have it. Just because you are in a state of denial about that suspicious lump doesn't mean it's not malignant. Just because you are still able to function as a professional cyclist in one day events doesn't mean you don't have cancer. If you happen to contract it at a stage of your cycling career during which you normally make great gains, you may not notice it as much as you would if you were in a declining performance age group, like 34 and up. You may be still improving. You just aren't improving as quickly. The cancer, although still localized, is taking it's toll. You just haven't noticed it yet.

Now, I pose this question to you. Would 6 minutes against a champion like Indurain who was in his prime in 1995 have been embarrasing if you had known that you were in the early stages of cancer? It wouldn't have been very embarrasing for a young rider anyway, mainly because young riders simply aren't made up for Tour riding for the most part. There are exceptions. Some athletes peak earlier than others. Merckx, Fignon, Ullrich come to mind. Maybe Armstrong would have been among this select group if he didn't have cancer. We don't know if he had it then or not. We never will know. But let's not get our facts mixed up here. One thing we do know is that he had it in its advanced stages only a little more than a year later. How long he had it before it spread to the advanced stages is a matter of conjecture. I wouldn't say it's much of a stretch to think that he had it in the 1995 Tour de France. Actually, every time you try to toss stones at Armstrong, it only forces us to acknowledge just how great a rider he really is.

Tejano

Show me something? I´m not talking about "looking out for yourself" as Leimerickman put it! I´m talking about suing PED´s.

Look at David Millars Palmares! It matches up with his words! He used EPO in 2001 and 2003. He claims he was clean in 2002 and his palmares was less impressive. He won a stage in the 2002 TDF! Was he doped? He says no and no one on his team has said otherwise! He claimed he wasn´t doped when he beat LA in the ITT in the 2003 TDF but one of his teammates caims he was.

Give me stats which show PED´s turn a "Mule into a Horse"! I beleive Ferrari when he says they don´t fundamental change performance! He has always been brutally honest for good and bad! If this is true you will find it very difficult to find any statistical data to demonstrate that EPO improves performance 10-15%.

LA could very well be clean with all that LA INC. does! Their purpose is singular! Ped´s don´t fundamentally change performance! And last Armstrong did not make a dramatic change from 1996 to 1999 it was progresive and steady! There was no transformation just realization!

micron

Armstrong was always at least 5 minutes back in all the TTs he rode in all the Tours he rode before cancer

gntlmn

You mean, before the "diagnosis". Who knows how long he had cancer in fact.

VeloFlash

Testicular cancer is quite an aggressive and rapidly expanding cancer once it leaves the testes and gets into the blood and/or lymph gland.

If you read the medical science on testicular cancer, stage 1 of testicular cancer where it is localised around the teste has no ill effects and can only be diagnosed as a result of a specific search.

It is only in cases when the teste enlarges and becomes painful that medicos have an indication and a brief window of opportunity to treat it before it aggressively moves into the lymph glands and/or blood stream to spread throughout the body.

The effects on performance of the cancer before LA and his GP became aware of the cancer would have been zero.

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

Tejano

I find it interesting you chose to post the ITT´s only and have made no mention of the mountains!

Are you conceding the mountains so early!!!

hombredesubaru

Wrong and ignorant as usual.
You are so stupid you simply must be baiting people.
When LA discovered the cancer he was coughing up blood, meaning lungs.
He had just competed a short time before in the Olympics and did poorly, for him.
He had for some time been a bit red in the face, tired, and coughing--go back and look at pics in the Tour du Pont 1996
Get a grip.

VeloFlash

He details the coughing up blood in his book. It was at his home in October 1996 and he immediately sought medical advice resulting in the diagnosis, about a week later, of testicular cancer. He said in an interview "I coughed up blood once."


No, the 1996 Atlanta Olympics ran from mid July to 2 August 1996. That is not a short time in respect of the advance of testicular cancer from Stage 1.


I am also red in the face, tired and sometimes cough after a gruelling race as do my fellow competitors. Certainly not symptoms of testicular cancer.

The issue is that Gntlmn was attempting to excuse the difference in form of LA 1993-1996 compared to 1999 to now as being through cancer affecting his performances. I have accurately pointed out that testicular cancer at Stage 1 has no effect on the body that would impede performance.

However, once it reaches Stage 2 it rapidly becomes invasive and aggressive and LA displayed those symptoms from September 18 onwards.

Is my grip strong enough, Subaru Man?

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

patch70

Err, coughing up blood, meaning blood.
Yes he had secondaries in his lungs. But you cannot cough up actual lung tissue. Damaged lung tissue often bleeds. Just semantics...

gntlmn

You probably know a whole lot more about testicular cancer than I do, but I find it hard to believe that malignant tumors even localized in the testes would have absolutely no performance drag on a world class athlete in competition. I'd like to know if there have been any studies on this. As for whether he actually had cancer at a particular point in time, my guess is that if there was a lump there, then he had it. If it spread enough, of course that would be debilitating enough for him to surrender and get help. But if it remained localized, I would have to see some data to believe that it had zero effect on his performance. If studies have been done on world class athletes who perform under the influence of cancer in its early stages, I'd like to see if they perform as well as they do when they don't have it. Any volunteers?

gntlmn

Enlighten me about Stage 1 a little. I'd like to know how you reached the conclusion that Stage 1 has no performance impeding effect on world class racing.

VeloFlash

and



From the American Cancer Society:

Stage 0 (carcinoma in situ): Preinvasive germ cell cancer.

Stage I: No spread to lymph nodes or distant organs, and blood tests are normal. [my emphasis]

Stage II: Cancer has spread to regional lymph nodes but not to lymph nodes in other parts of the body or to distant organs.

Stage III: Cancer has spread to distant lymph nodes and/or to distant organs, such as the lungs or liver.

Stage 1 testicular cancer is difficult to diagnose. All health checks are normal and so there is no evidence that the cardio respiratory system should be impaired. The medical practitioner is required to specifically search for the existence of growth affecting the teste through ultra sound and biopsy to conclude there is or is not testicular cancer in its primary stage.

There can be no performance impeding effect unless the cancer has spread to the blood and the organs that govern athletic performance.

In July 1996 in Atlanta, Armstrong was 6th in the TT and 12th in the Road Race. Respectable results when compared to his palmares to that date and certainly not evidence his performances were suffering.

If you read his book the time line to the diagnosis of cancer was headaches (20 Sept 1996), blurry vision (21 Sept) coughing blood - once (about 23 Sept) diagnosis not locating the problem (same day) swollen and painful testicle (a few days later) diagnosis identifying the cancer (2 October). At this time the cancer had spread to Stage 11 and possibly beyond.

Maybe you can dig out studies that would evidence Stage 1 testicular cancer has such a debilitating effect it could affect performances over 4 years (1993-1996) if the growth existed during this period.

Armstrong in his book was satisfied with his Spring performances during 1996 . He dropped out of the 1996 TdF after 5 days with bronchitis. His form was consistent with previous years. A good single day racer who could not handle the gruelling top multi stage races. That was to change in 1999.

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"