Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

gntlmn

Hmmm. Maybe you don't know more than I do about cancer. I'd already seen that Stage I, II, III description you posted. That doesn't deter me from believing that someone who has cancer would perform more poorly than someone who does not, especially in world class athletic competition. We're talking about an environment where a 1% decrease in your ability to recover will result in your losing the race. If you don't recover as well, and it's a minute change, like 1%, you may not notice yourself the difference, except that you won't make it to the finish line as fast. You won't feel any pain or obvious extreme, unbearable fatigue. But your body is fighting a foreign invasion (not exactly, but for purposes of this discussion, let's call this spinning out of control of the body's abnormal cells a foreign invasion), albeit at that stage a localized one. Do you really think that the human body will expend NO energy on fighting that foreign invasion that it would have otherwise spent on recovery from the previous day's stage? This is the key on multi stage racing; it's recovery. If it weren't, then it would be like one day stage racing. Do you think you would be more likely to get bronchitis if your recovery process were mildly weakened by a foreign invasion? I'm afraid the answer is a resounding, "Yes."

Remember, it's not whether Armstrong thought he had cancer or not. He may have had it a lot longer than he realizes, even looking back on it now after all those years.

MJtje

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........we really need a doping forum on this board; my rant obviously didn't help. Guys who cares...........

MJtje still trying to go for pope, saint is good to

gntlmn

I wasn't referring to doping. I was referring to undiagnosed cancer. That's a big difference.

MJtje

Yeah sorry But the lead up to youre question was to find out if cancer was the reason he performed bad before 1996......or he was just bad and he is now using drugs.......either way I will be rooting for the men doped/or not this tour!!

gntlmn

I find it very interesting that when the wind starts getting knocked out of the sails of the drug allegations, this thread gets bumped conveniently out of the eyes of all those who saw the phoney allegations. They never get a chance to see another explanation. It kind of makes me wonder who's setting the agenda around here.

VeloFlash

gntlmn, you do have one problem with your argument that primary testicular cancer may have been in existence for 4 years and suppressed his real performances. There have been many explanations advanced for LA's miraculous transformation. From LA himself, his coach and speculation from his public like yourself.

If the tc disease was the simple explanation that it existed in its primary stage from 1993 to 1996 causing him to abandon 3 TdF's and only finish once (24th I believe), don't you think this would have been trumpeted from LA citing an expert source like a specialised urologist?

It would be more palatable than more focus, training harder and weight loss leading to suspicions he is on PED's particularly when taken into context with his association with Ferrari.

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

Tejano

Do you know where Ferrari said that? I´m interested!

Tejano

"The Mother of all Myths" straight from the mules mouth!

LA showed more systematic progress than Indurain! But I´m not sure Indurain is a good example because was "The Man" during the dirtiest times cycling has ever experienced!

There was no dramatic change! Why did LA drop out of the TDF in ´93,´94, & ´96?

Riddle me that!

Tejano

What thread did you discuss the pedigree theory?

Tejano

Tell me more about Indurain working with LA on climbing and pedal cadence!
Where did you get that?

gntlmn

I'm not making excuses for his 1993-96 performances. After all, he was ranked number 1 cyclist in the world in 1996 based on his results, not based on his later dominance in the TdF.

What I'm posing is that he may have been even better back then were it not for the early stages of testicular cancer. I am posing the possibility that it might have hampered his performance earlier than 1996.

As for dropping out of the Tours early, that was always part of the plan early on in this rider's career. Too many young riders try to do more than they are ready for at too young an age in the Tour de France. I've been on the record in these forums to repeat the strategy of his managers back then in the early/mid 90's, that they weren't going for the final GC. They were only interested in individual stages. They considered it a supreme waste of talent to burn out a young rider too early in his career in the TdF. As Indurain used to say, "You have to learn how to walk before you can run."

Carrera

One possible angle might be that Lance literally stared death in the face when he was given a 45 per cent chance of survival. Anyone who is diagnosed with cancer and given a 45 per cent chance of living, undergoes a huge shock. My best friend, for example, contracted cancer and died from it.
Surviving a possible terminal illness makes a huge impression on your mental attitude. I don't doubt Lance uses drugs but, hey, so do most other world class athletes. Those top athletes who go on to dominate a sport don't enjoy superiority simply due to drugs. A huge component is mental attitude.
Lance probably decided he would give his all to cycling when he realised he had a second chance at living. He would have trained exceptionally hard, had the best team scientists helping him and he would have been more hungry than anyone else. Lance is also extremely professional in his preparation. He spends time on all the major climbs planning his gearing down to an exact science, riding the cobbles e.t.c.
These factors make a difference.
Miguel Indurain, of course, was a genetic freak with a 28 beats per minute resting pulse. Merkcx, on the other hand, was once told to forget cycling since his heart wasn't big enough for a champion rider. Yet Merckx was unstoppable in his day.

indigo_pete

Absolutely!! Couldn't agree more. What if LA really does train harder & longer than any other cyclist - combine with superior genetics? What if??? What if LA really IS genetically gifted? Did Andre the Giant become 7 foot from PEDs?? No, he's genetically....well...different (acromegaly actually).

LA was always destined for greatness in whatever endurace sport he chose. We could see this in his teen years. Had he stayed with Triathlon, he would have been the next Mark Allen. (no offense Norman!)

I'll miss seeing his cycling at the end of the TDF!!

gntlmn

I'm reminded of the other big European in another sport who was told something similar. He was at the time 6'2", 160 lbs, enormous by marathon standards, and yet that was his specialty. They told him he wouldn't amount to much because his oxygen uptake wasn't big enough. Yet he trained like a mad dog, bursting onto the scene only a couple of years before Merckx was made his mark with his shocking performance in the 1969 Tour de France. Both athletes were doing it by training way more miles than other athletes in their respective disciplines, and Derek Clayton, the athlete I am referring to, would concentrate on form, which is ever so important in running. He said he was about to a point where his legs barely lifted, stride for stride. Any lifting motion, save to avoid tripping over a pebble or loose gravel, is wasted effort. It's not easy to perfect the form, but when you do, it makes a huge difference. He also trained 160 or 170 miles a week, sometimes more than 200 miles in a week. That is huge mileage. His world record in the marathon stood for 13 years, and he is the only runner in the past something like 40 years who has broken his own world record in the marathon. He set his final mark in 1969, the year of Clayton/Merckx, both fanatical overdistance trainers.

My guess is that Merckx took the advice to heart about his low VO2 Max (pardon the pun). That's why he was so fanatical about his weight. If you don't have much extra VO2 uptake to spare, you realize the great importance of not carrying any extra weight at all. Furthermore, I suspect that he focused greatly on his form as well, and this too is a big factor in cycling, as it is in running.

Here is the link on the legendary Irishman, Derek Clayton, who started in Ireland and ended in Australia.

http://www.time-to-run.com/marathon...tes/clayton.htm