Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

MJtje

That is an interesting question.....A month a go there was a big hype in Europe, because a football player of Parma was shown inserting a drip into his arm which his lawyer confirmed contained Neoton, a drug used in cardiac surgery to protect the heart that is not on the World Anti Doping Agency's list of banned substances.

So the question is this doping........I thought the minister (dunno of what) from italy said something like it is not ethical.......jep but is it illegal?

VeloFlash

The list of prohibited substances includes specific substances and methods but also includes catch-all phrases like, "included but not limited to" and "other substances with similar chemical structure or biological effect" and a substance or method that "artificially enhances the uptake, transfer or delivery of oxygen."

Although there may not be a test in place to recognise the presence of "Neoton" in the athlete's sample, if the athlete admits to using that drug or it is found in his possession and it has performance enhancing benefits then the athlete is in breach of the rules without failing a drug test.

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

MJtje

Oke....maybe they have less strict rules then in cycling, because he isn't fired.

Here is full article:

Cannavaro the target in Italy's latest drugs row


By James Eve

ROME, April 28 (Reuters) - Italian football faces a new drugs row after state broadcaster RAI showed a film in which Juventus and former Parma defender Fabio Cannavaro is seen using a drip on the eve of the 1999 UEFA Cup final.

The film, shown on RAI two's current affairs programme "Full Stop and From the Top", shows Cannavaro, then a Parma player, relaxing in his hotel room the evening before the UEFA Cup final against Olympique Marseille which the Italian club won 3-0.

The Italian international is shown inserting a drip into his arm which his lawyer confirmed contained Neoton, a drug used in cardiac surgery to protect the heart that is not on the World Anti Doping Agency's list of banned substances.

Earlier in the day the player sent a warning to RAI that he would take legal action if they accused him of doing anything illegal.

Cannavaro did not take part in the programme but his lawyer Paolo Trofino formed part of the panel that discussed the film after it had been broadcast.

"Neoton helps to regenerate muscle and it is not on the banned list," Trofino said.

"We were concerned about the damage it might do to his image. If you go into a player's room the night before a big match and you see him with a drip, obviously that's going to be a shocking image. People might jump to conclusions."

Though Neoton is not banned, its associations with the long-running Juventus doping trial is unlikely to do much for Cannavaro's image.

Last year former World Footballer of the Year Zinedine Zidane told the judge conducting the trial he had taken the drug to cope with a heavy playing schedule during his time at Juventus between 1996 and 2001.

Cannavaro's team mate Lilian Thuram, who also played alongside him at Parma, said the film had been made by the players as a joke but would be misinterpreted by viewers.

"It creates an image of players that dope themselves up before each match," he said.

"We often play around with video cameras in the dressing rooms, but certain things are seen differently from the outside.

"Unfortunately we live in a world where people try to dirty and destroy even the little that remains clean. A player who has given so much to football and to the Italian national team deserves respect."

VeloFlash

If Association Football (soccer) is a signatory to WADA it lives by the same anti doping rules as cycling.

The technicality here is that the player did not admit to taking the substance. It was his doctor. Anti doping rules admit as evidence to doping admissions only by the athletes.

At the Sydney Olympics 2000 the winner of the 200m women's butterfly event was a swimmer from USA. Recently, the USA team doctor admitted by oversight she was on a substance that had recently been removed from the banned list. No action could be taken as it was not her admission.

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

Tejano

-Leimerickman said this! 100% my ass!

"I have it on good authority that several of the current top men in cycling do not dope.
What do I mean by do not dope ?
I mean that they do not go near EPO or HGH.
I can name them and if you look at their cycling palmares you will see cyclists who have been consistent performers throughout."

Tejano

At the age of 23 LA was twice, wait three times, the rider Induarin was! Have you read my posts! Indurain was crap! Where was his engine?

He had a solid year in 1998 but by now means huge! In the 1999 TDF he beat a severly weakend field! Zulle lost somthing like 6 minutes in an early stage due to a crash and lost the overall by 7 minutes! Do you call that dominate? Sounds more like progress, the slow and steady kind!

You remind me of David Walsh the way you use the language to create an illusion of the truth and then pawn it off on the weak and faithess.

Here is what some of your heros had to say....

-July 18, 2000

In today's edition of L'Equipe, several former tour winners, stage winners, and high general classification riders from the past were asked to comment on the "phenomenon" of the metamorphosis of Lance's superior climbing ability, seen for the first time last year in Sestrières. Here are some excerpts from what some of them said:



-Cyrille Guimard, winner of seven stages in the 70s:

"His metamorphosis is linked to his illness, even taking into account that one knew when he became world champion in Oslo at 21 years old that you were dealing with a supertalented athlete. ... I don't know why anyone is astonished because Merckx or Hinault had had leads that were bigger. Lance will dominate but not crush the Tour."



-Bernard Hinault, Tour champion in 1978, 1979, 1981, 1982, and 1985:

"His cadence is normal, oscillating between 90 and 120 rotations per minute in the mountains, the norm for all of the riders. ... Those who doubt his natural abilities drive me crazy. They forget where he's been. ... And then, he's lost more than 20 pounds. In the mountains, that's considerable. In the days when Miguel Indurain lost eight pounds, he won the Tour de France."



-Charley Mottet, fourth place in 1987:

"At Hautacam, he benefited from the detestable weather conditions that day. In cold weather, most cyclists compensate for their muscle stiffness by changing their gearing. Those who suffer the least in the cold, leave things as usual, which at the end of the day, makes the difference. Armstrong's superiority comes from: 1) his resistance to the cold; 2) his muscle quality; 3) his great capacity to pedal smoothly even in bad weather. All of this together makes him extraordinary. And, one must remember that Lance began as a triathlete where he had to ride after swimming in cold water. Triathlon placed him in the position of handling variations in temperature and sudden changes in rhythm."



-Raymond Pulidor, second place in 1964, 1965 and 1974:

"At Hautacam, he gave an extraordinary impression! Something never seen! Merckx himself never had this ease. He climbed with force, grimacing. ... One didn't have the same sensations watching the climbers in the old days; it seemed they rode more slowly, but the roads weren't as fast. ... So, compare what is comparable. There is a systematic suspicion around Armstrong. I find this regrettable. One forgets that he works more seriously than the others, that he diets, that he lost 20 pounds."



-Laurent Fignon, winner in 1983 and 1984:

"Everything comes from training, from education. Armstrong prepares in a very rational way. He works harder and better than the others. From an athletic point of view, Ullrich also has great qualities, if not better, but he never controls his weight. That's a waste. And the result is there."



-Lucien Van Impe, winner in 1976:

"It proves that an athlete perfectly trained, who has character, can go in the mountains with the pure climbers. Now, it is possible that on the other hand, he has lost some of his ability in the time trial which we will see between Fribourg and Mulhouse (Friday's stage)."



-Hennie Kuiper, second place in 1977:

"Armstrong is fantastic. He knows how to pedal better than anyone, combining strength and flexibility. Ullrich goes up the climbs like Indurain or Hinault. Armstrong offers a good compromise between the complete riders and the pure climbers like Van Impe and Pantani, that which places him well above the others."




- Miguel Indurain July 2002: On Armstrong´s recovery from cancer.
"What is clear is that the cancer changed his mentality. It even changed his character - before he was rather reckless and now he is more measured and calm. But before, just like now, he had great quality and was a born winner."




- Eddie Merckx July 2002: On cancer changing Armstrong.
"Before his illness, Lance was talented, he'd won the world championship at the age of 21, but as a climber he struggled,"

".. . It was down to his illness that he turned into a great climber....Cancer made him much stronger physically, and, more importantly, stronger mentally. He saw death staring him right in the face."

"I went to Texas to see Lance. He went out on his bike for the first time since his illness, and I was there with him. His head was shaved, and he had two big scars at the back of his neck. It was only three weeks after his operation, and you could see he was still exhausted, but he wanted so much to get back on his bike."


Those are some big names proliferating the "Urban Myth"

MJtje

I also don't think that everyone is doping........but you can go on and on about this but Flyer won't give in nor you (you shouldn't, good that youre positive ). It is an ugly side of cycling, but cycling isn't the only sport that does it. And it won't end if Lance gets caught or other cyclists (I know Flyer they will never get caught still get all the money blalala.......heres a thought: THE WORLD ISN'T FAIR). In business, in politics and I can go on and on.....people cheating on each other......IT ISN'T THE END OF THE WORLD!!! Just deal with it that the dreamworld doesn't exist.......and if you know so much go to WADA, UCI, USADA call them endlessly....and tell them what you know. Then again they won't listen, because what they do is lie too.......what do oil companies do....what do politians do. What does youre president do: Bush biggest lyer of them all.........you want to change the sport do something usefull instead of endlessly debating doping. I know there is doping....but to me it is no way the end of the world. (aaargh sorry couldn't resist Tejano.......RESPECT if you want to go on about it).

Still the questions and still unanswered.......amazing that basso lost so much time? Di Luca that good? Can Delli hold on? Will Lampre attack? 10 out of 10 if you can answer those questions Flyer.

I want to end positive: Tejano good for sticking with youre hero's, also good to here the other side instead of a onesided discussion.

Gr, MJtje for non-lying president, non-lying pope, non-lying whatever........never heard of that....lyers in all layers of the population. deal with it!!!

VeloFlash

And can you name any on your list that were known to be clean?

Only one - Charlie Mottet who could only manage fourth palce in 1987. Willy Voet said Mottet could never win a grand tour because he was one of the only few riders who never took drugs.

As for the others, its a case of ducks fly with ducks, geese fly with geese.

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

VeloFlash

Tejano:

Can you explain to me why the vast majority of the peloton are asthmatics and require Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) for asthmatic drugs? The incidence of asthmatics in the peloton is a multiple of the incidence in the general polulation.

Lance Armstrong has been reported to have anti asthma drugs listed on his TUE. I have read his books and I cannot recall that he stated he was an asthmatic.

Here is a quote from an interview in December 2001 with a Dr Barrios. He was Pedro Delgado and Miguel Indurain's doctor. He also worked with US Postal Service:

"Barrios said that he felt, after 20 years of work in pro sport, that it was no longer possible to 'win medals without resorting to special medicines.'"

and

"He also said he found it strange that certain products that are permitted, such as salbutamol in inhalers used by asthmatics, because of the clear performance advantages they give athletes. 'It has been shown that [salbutamol] can increase muscle volume by up to 50%,' he said. 'Curiously, there are increasing numbers of asthmatics winning medals.'"

It has also been reported that certain asthmatic medicines act as masking agents for other drugs. As long as you can provide a doctor's certificate that you are in need of asthma drugs it can be entered on your TUE and be used legally.

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

Tejano

[QUOTE=MJtje]I also don't think that everyone is doping........but you can go on and on about this but Flyer won't give in nor you (you shouldn't, good that youre positive ). It is an ugly side of cycling, but cycling isn't the only sport that does it. And it won't end if Lance gets caught or other cyclists.... In business, in politics and I can go on and on.....people cheating on each other......IT ISN'T THE END OF THE WORLD!!! Just deal with it that the dreamworld doesn't exist.......you want to change the sport do something usefull instead of endlessly debating doping. I know there is doping....but to me it is no way the end of the world. (aaargh sorry couldn't resist Tejano.......RESPECT if you want to go on about it).

I want to end positive: Tejano good for sticking with youre hero's, also good to here the other side instead of a onesided discussion.

QUOTE]

Actually LA isn´t my hero! I have a lot of respect and admiration for him, but I could name another 15- 20 people who fit that bill and you probably don´t know any of them! Honestly, if I saw LA in a restaurant eating I wouldn´t even approach him, I don´t know the guy. I have no heros, we are all heros in our own way! Yes LA is a step or two above the normal, what he has done is incredible, but in the end people are people. We all have our own stories,

I believe cheating exists too! But to say LA is doped using this poor man´s logic of the haters is disgraceful and indecent!

People do need to here the other side of the story and I will continue to present interesting information which will go unanswered by the haters!

Here´s my theory. LA may be looking out for himself but he is not dirty (EPO, HGH,...). He has always had a huge engine and tremendous potential and made steady and continuous progress from day one! He is able to beat dopers simply because it (EPO, HGH,...) dosen´t fundamentally change a riders performance! He has created a small multi-national to win the TDF every year, he has worked harder, smarter, and longer than all others and in the end when you combine Miguels body and Eddie´s will you have Lance Armstrong! And how the hell can anyone beat that?

I need to preview my posts sorry!



Take a look at the final GC form the 1995 TDF and the podiums from 1999-present and tell me what you see?

MJtje

Sorry Tejano I'm no hero-woreshipper myself. I just thought so in the way you were defending armstrong As for youre question I just don't no if he is a doper.....and don't care. In light of doping cases in the past I wouldn't be surprised on the other hand.......I could be wrong. We just don't know. A 10-year commitment to ferrari is somewhat suspicious, however not conclusive. Same as the other facts thrown around..........to me the discussion is dead. But it is good that you have the (positive) energy to constantly disagree with Flyer........always better then just a onesided discussion!

lumpy

I'm not sure I would call doping cheating anymore. With the incredible availability of these products, anyone can have an edge and it seems most do. I think it's simply human nature to look for an edge over the competition. It's an evolutionary advantage. Like pursuing the perfect performance diet, and training regimen, which Lance has clearly done better than any other rider, any other edge is desireable.

As for Lance, well, the cancer essentially allowed him to start building his body and train all over again, but this time with the knowledge of what it takes to be the strongest rider. Like the the old saying goes, "If I only knew then what I know now", Lance literally got a new lease on life - and cycling.

I am tired of the constant accusations thrown about regarding doping. It seems anytime a cyclists performance is particularly good, or bad, doping is accused.