Page 24 - Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

22-07.-2005, 11:12 AM

#347

Biscayne

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 30

Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

My credibility is doing fine.

Velo Flash has used on 'out-of context sarcastic remark' as a feeble attempt to hide horse growth hormones. EquiGen & Testicomp were still used at AIS---no matter what your credibilty or his is.

I have utter suspicion and contempt for your and your doping apologist agenda.

My racing experience is sound---but also not related to professional cyclsits abusing illegal drugs.

Your opinions do not alter the facts. Doping is widespread, athletes are sicka nd dying and corruption and fraud rule the day. LA Confidential reveals Lance to be a liar and a cheat.

Shoot the messenger is the natural instinct of a doping apologist.

btw: Did I mention that I loathe doping apologists as much as I loathe cheaters?

Am I reading this right? You are expressing "utter contempt" for ME, and calling ME a dope apologist? You are WAY out of line. And I'm slowly beginning to see a pattern here. I ask a perfectly reasonable question, you duck the question (I am now beginning to suspect, because the question is perceived as exposing you as having made an exaggeration or claim for which there is no support or reference), and instead elect to "divert" by attacking me.

If you have no interest in good faith discussions and wish to sling mud, that's fine. I'll move on and leave you to post another thousand posts to yourself here.

My question above concerning the source of your claim about doctors asking Lance about steroid use and his alleged admission that he had, still awaits your response.

And if you'd like to clarify, you've posted previously that you've raced with (on your team) and against those who have admitted to you doping, and "taught" you how it's done and given you insight into that. Is that not true? And if so, could you clarify, are these current teammates? Are they people racing in USCF races? Also, having referred to yourself as a former Cat 1 racer, I'm wondering when you held your Cat 1 license?

22-07.-2005, 11:18 AM

#348

Biscayne

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 30

Re: Armstrong has been tinkered wth!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

What does commonsense have to do with racing bikes on a commercial level?

You act as if compliance was a key element. It is not, only a pretence.
If a doctor writes a TUE--it will be accepted--no questions asked!
It is a policy seldom followed in practice. It is all just for show.

Do not take doping tests, compliance seriously. The riders certainly do not.
Both Armstrong & Brochard used illegal steroids--which neither declared in advance. But neither was sanctioned. Their cover stories were accepted.

How is that for common business sense?

Flyer, if you don't know the answer to the question, that's fine, just say so. Otherwise, please point me to the source that will confirm for me that any team doctor can write a TUE for any substance he wants, and it WILL (or must) be accepted. I will believe any claim you make that you back up with a source. Otherwise, frankly, your credibility is rapidly approaching ZERO. Shouting, using pejoratives, attacking people personally, attempting to bully and name-call, none of that advances your credibility.

So, either you are talking out your arse about TUEs, speculating in the absence of real knowledge, or you can lay out the specific adminsitrative process and rules and a reference where I can confirm them. If it's the former, you'll respond with an ad hominem, diversion, or not at all. If it's the latter, you'll simply provide the information.

Those with the facts and references on their side don't need to berate, name call or otherwise bluster. When I see you go off like a 12-year old in the middle of a tantrum, there isn't anyone who doesn't know what the score is.

22-07.-2005, 11:31 AM

#351

Biscayne

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Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 30

Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

Asked and answered. ...

No Flyer, ducked and dodged. Question after question. Just about every one of them.

If you have even an ounce of credibility remaining, you'll at least answer this question:

And if you'd like to clarify, you've posted previously that you've raced with (on your team) and against those who have admitted to you doping, and "taught" you how it's done and given you insight into that. Is that not true? And if so, could you clarify, are these current teammates? Are they people racing in USCF races? Also, having referred to yourself as a former Cat 1 racer, I'm wondering when you held your Cat 1 license?

That is the one question I know you must have personal knowledge of, and the only reason you'd duck it again is if you've lied and fear that might come out. If it's the truth, you won't have any trouble answering the question and telling us a few of the races you raced in as a Cat 1 and some of the racers you raced against.

Last edited by Biscayne : 22-07.-2005 at 11:44 AM.

22-07.-2005, 01:16 PM

#353

VeloFlash

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2003

Posts: 696

Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biscayne

VF, where can someone like me find out what TUEs have been granted to a particular racer? If, for example, I wanted to see what TUEs have been granted to George Hincapie, is there a place I could find that information?

Not that I am aware.

Quote:

How does the TUE process work? Presumably a rider has to file a written request that isn't granted automatically just because it's asked for, no? So, what governing body approves TUEs? Is it a race by race thing, or once you've received a TUE, it's good for as long as you race? Or is it good for a limited period of time (i.e. one racing season), and they you'd have to re-up?

The TUE process is in the UCI antidoping rules at their website http://www.uci.ch/

Quote:

Last, about the asthma drug you refer to, what is it called and where can I go to read up on it -- where I'll find info explaining how it increases muscle volume by 50% and what other drugs it might mask? From the little I know about asthma medications, they do contain adrenaline, which I can understand as a nice boost agent, and presumably they would open the bronchi to permit greater oxygenation of the blood too.

It is called salbutamol. The reference I had was from Euro Cycling News but, unfortunately, that reference now has been truncated. Here is a reference to that article off Velonews about comments made by Indurain's former medico:

http://www.velonews.com/phorum3/rea...i=81209&t=81208

The UK parliament have noted the ergogenic benefits of asthma medication at:

http://www.publications.parliament....499/499we10.htm

It states: Beta-2 agonists are drugs such as clenbuterol, salbutamol and fenoterol that were designed to relax muscles in the airways of asthma sufferers when inhaled. But when injected, the drugs can build muscle mass and reduce body fat. Side effects (dizziness, nausea, headaches and muscle cramps) stem from the drug constricting blood vessels in the brain and elsewhere.

I have found in the past and will look again for references about masking, that nearly all of the past TdF winners are "asthmatics" and the reference to 70% of the pro peloton having asthma medications on their TUE's.

Quote:

Circling back to the approval process ... whatever entity grants TUEs, what has to be proven to them in order to grant an exemption for powerful asthma medications? Is a doctor's note really sufficient? Is there some objective measure of impairment they need to show in order to demonstrate a "need" for the drug?

This may explain the process:

http://www.nsw.cycling.org.au/files...oping110105.htm

but it may be noted the Australian Cycling Federation now only will accept certificates relating to asthma from accredited medical practitioners.

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

22-07.-2005, 01:53 PM

#354

VeloFlash

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2003

Posts: 696

Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

Flyer, you are making all these claims about your elite cycling past (Olympic medals [note: plural], Cat 1 rider, European pro, coach, etc.) to give authority to your posts. However in your prolific, frenetic and emotional posts you got caught out contradicting yourself and being inconsistent and exposed yourself as a (pathological? inveterate? chronic?) tamperer of the truth.

Just as a witness under cross examination has been caught out being dishonest, your testimony/opinions/facts will be totally discredited in front of the judge/jury/forum.

No, the remark was not out of context. You said "my Olympic medals" in "my safe". Must have been 1984 LA, Flyer. That was the only Olympics that US riders won medals. Were you blood doping also and denying it?

Quote:

My racing experience is sound---but also not related to professional cyclsits abusing illegal drugs.

But only at Cat 2 level. Remember, work, study, motorcycles and injuries prevented you from being a winning Cat 1 rider. Here is an excerpt from that post:

My racing went bicycles, motorcycles, nothing, bicycles. Breaks in between and injuries too.

Business & school ongoing at all times, hence my inability to be a winning Cat 1 rider--which is how you upgrade from #2.

Perhaps this work conflict saved my life. I might have become a doper?

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

22-07.-2005, 05:46 PM

#355

MJtje

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 1,125

Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Oke, here I go:

I talked about Marc lotz, Hamilton the book of Gaumont........now I'm gonna talk about Lemond! How come he constantly bashes on LA, yet his recovery after that accident was also somewhat suspicious.......

AND in LA confidential he let his wife talk........because he has a business to run.......There are certainly more stories then LA........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

For a person who does not care about anemia and trauma doping---you sure do get around.

Have you not gianed any insight on PEDs and how they have altered the elite game--in all sports????

Instead of taking cheap shots--why don't you contribute some substantive material?

Do you know anything about doping or addiction?

23-07.-2005, 12:21 AM

#356

snyper0311

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2004

Posts: 262

Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biscayne

Snyper -- you need to do some reading up on this stuff

1. While testing is good, it is only going to find what it specifically searches for. So if you're using an experimental drug or compound the chemical structure of which is not specifically tested for, you are not going to test positive. This issue is hit on in this informative piece ...
http://outside.away.com/outside/fea...n-sports-1.html

2. There are plenty of compounds, notably the various forms of human growth hormone, for which there still has not been a test derived.

3. It should be clear on the surface that there are doped athletes testing negative -- there are a number of guys who have admitted straight out that they were doped when they took tests which showed them to be clean. The names are numerous. David Millar is one. Even now, we see guys getting booted out of races not because they've tested positive, but because they're caught with suitcases full of dope in their cars, campers or with their wives. Obviously they tested clean, but were doping. Unless you believe all the drugs were for after the race, or "for my mother."

4. There are plenty of methods athletes use to beat the system, not the least of which is submitting bogus samples. It may sound quaint but the oldest method of evading detection is still in use. Festina soigneur Willy Voet detailed a couple methods the Festina team used to test clean even though he was doping them to the gills. It's kind of a joke, sure, but the Whizzinator and dried clean urine the Minnesota Vikings running back Ontario Smith got caught passing through airport security is a reminder.

All I am stating is that I don't think that it is/should be that hard to detect PED's. Although I do agree that cheaters do their best to hide their results, someone out there can catch them. If that was not the case, we would not be hearing about the ones getting caught.

I know that I am not an expert on doping-I have never claimed to be. But, I think that we (as cycling fans) need to have some faith in the guys that do earn their living on the bike.

23-07.-2005, 04:03 AM

#357

Biscayne

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 30

Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by snyper0311

Yes, I got that the first time. I understand you think it shouldn't be hard to detect PEDs. But you are just plain mistaken. Did you bother to read the article I provided the link for? If you do, you'll see that what seems logical to you, isn't the way it is.

And again, you're arguing that the detection system must work if it's catching a rider or two every now and then. That's a conclusion that requires an enormous (and very flawed) assumption. It should tell you something that the only two riders thrown out of this year's Tour never tested positive for a PED. One had a hematocrit level over 50%, making it clear he was using a PED that the system could not and did not detect, and the other (Frigo) tested completely clean, but was booted because a small warehouse worth of PEDs was found in his wife's car. Other than that, not a single rider has tested positive.

And yet ... read this article and listen to racers themselves making it clear they think other guys in the peloton are doping ...
http://velonews.com/tour2005/news/articles/8503.0.html

Do you figure all those guys are just expressing sour grapes? Do you figure guys who rode and placed at the top suddenly can't hold the pace is just because they lost fitness suddenly?

23-07.-2005, 04:09 AM	#358
Biscayne Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 30	Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!! VF - thx for the info on the asthma drug, and TUE administrative process. It's nice to see someone who doesn't exaggerate and fabricate, and is willing to answer a simple question with useful information to advance knowledge on the board. Then again, since you don't make claims you don't have a factual basis for, you have no reason not to be friendly and helpful, and simply provide the facts, letting them speak for themselves and letting smart people draw their own conclusions. Flyer could certainly learn a thing or two from you.

24-07.-2005, 10:23 AM

#360

spokeking

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Location: NC

Posts: 35

Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

[QUOTE=Biscayne] Flyer could certainly learn a thing or two from you.

No doubt, like how to cover up a doping scandal involving EquiGen & TestiComp in a taxpayer subsidized dorm room.

Just deny it happened.

You apologists are really clever.

Would anyone happen to know what the average Hematocrit level of Lance has been during this Tour? I read that normally, his is only about 42.

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