Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

limerickman

Fair point about the Press.
This might well be the case.
As I say LA may well have been targetted, who knows though.

As regards Jan Ullrich, yes he is a product of the East German system which decayed in 1989 (my buddy is doing a thesis on this).
However, my buddy told me all about the University of Leipzig and how the
East German swimmers, rowers, cyclists, track and field athletes were prepared there (hyperbaric chambers).
I well remember Kornelia Ender destroying the USA womens team in Montreal in 1976.
Susan Babashoff complaining about being beaten.

I think ullrich may have been too young to have benefitted from state
doping program, but who knows.
He was 16 when east Germany collapsed.
However unlike LA, Jan has been a consistent performer throughout.
It's LA improvement that merits questions.

memphiscyclist

You people baffle me. You sit around and debate every little rumor and theory that supports a doping conspiracy about Armstrong like a bunch of gossiping housewives. First of all, just shut up and ride already. Second, Armstrong was winning triathlons long before he took solely to the bike. He was a prodigy in his early teens. Are you trying to tell me he has been doping since then?! Do you people have any clue what goes on with doping? It's a ticking time bomb. You do it long enough and consistently enough to win race after race and you will eventually either get caught, be forced into early retirement, or die. We hear about it all of the time. Pros doing spectacular for 1 season and then boom, they mysteriously fall off the face of the map because they quit the doping and can't perform. Or they test positive and face a fine or ban every so often, like Hamilton. Or they die in their sleep as a result of excessive EPO use like Pantini. But look at Armstrong's career. Not ONCE during his entire 15+ year career has he tested positive for anything, and the only thing that ever took him off of the map was the period during which he had cancer. It's a very simple equation. You can't possibly perform at the top consecutively for this long as a result of doping because you will either test positive or you will have health problems. And if Armstrong of all people was doping, he would test positive before anyone else for the mere reason that he is at the top, and all accusatory fingers point at him. Genetic freak of nature, yes. Doper, no. Leave the guy alone already. He has nothing left to prove.

memphiscyclist

Well now you are just getting into "What constitutes doping", from a cup of coffee all the way up to EPO and roids. I'm not going to argue the small points. Bottom line is, Armstrong has never tested positive for a banned substance. The guy practically offers his veins and urine willingly to be tested. His mentality is "I'm giving you all of the tools and opportunities you need...now prove that I'm doping". If I were doping I'd be hiding in the shadows.

micron

You think everybody's favourite whipping boy, Richard Virenque, hasn't been tested plenty in his career and, guess what, he managed never to test positive either. Oh, neither did David Millar. Or Johann Museeuw. It is not difficult to evade doping controls - do read Willy Voet's book.

bspeedy00

I couldnt agree with you more memphiscyclist. At this point what does lance need to prove. IF he was doping, why would he continue to compete? What limerickman and Flyer dont get are the actual facts:

1.) Lance has been a consistant elite athlete for 15+ years, no rollercoaster.
2.) Lance is the most frequently tested athlete and has NEVER tested positive
3.) All athletes use medication, but not all are performance enhancing, even if they contain trace amounts of an ingredient that may be performance enhancing.
4.) There was no spike in Lance's performances after cancer: he was a world champion/tour stage winner as a young cyclist who had the early stages of cancer. That takes ability.
5.) The pain of a grand tour is small compared to the 24-hour a day pain of chemo, so it is not unreasonable to think that cancer raised his already high pain threshold.
6.) Who cares what Indurain, Millar, LeMond, etc say. Critics obviously want to make their own careers seem better, even that means discrediting a champion.
7.) Who cares who Lances friends are. I have a friend with a drinking problem, doesnt mean I have a drinking problem too.
8.) Lance trains harder than any cyclist I have heard of. How does Ullrich get into elite shape every year, after letting himself go every off season. Maybe you all should suspect him of doping too.

Now Flyer seems to think that the truth will ALL come out someday and Lance will be caught or something. What will he do when that day never comes? All this energy down the drain. Nice use of your life.

bspeedy00

Do you even know what that stuff is? Do you hold a medical degree? They are not flat out performance enhancing drugs. They serve other functions as well, and many of which would be EXTREMELY harmful if used in a performace enhancing fashion. You can just pump in insulin and think you will be superman. That will kill you, because your blood sugar will nose dive and you will go into shock.

Lance tested positive for a corticosteroid, yes, but in trace amounts, the same corticosteroid found in hydrocortisone cream which is often used for rashes or irritations of the skin (ie saddle rash). Oh, and the amount they found is consistent with the amount absorbed through the skin...trace.

bspeedy00

Dont give me any more lip? Wow, you told me.

Just like before, who cares what some random Italian cyclist says on while watching tv. Its just his opinion, and probably one formed out of jealousy. Plenty of non-doping athletes have produced unbelievable performances in the history of sports. That is the nature of athletics. So what if it is hard for YOU to believe he dropped Escartin and Zulle. Your perception of difficulty has no actual relation to Lance doping. I know elite runners (sub-4 minute milers), that cant comprehend how Bekele broke the 5K world record, WHILE racing the previous record holder. Yet no one questions the validity simply because it happened. Bekele LAPPED other olympians at the Athens Games in the 10k. That guy is just physiologically talented, and so is Lance.

Next, so what if some idiot injects whatever into her body. She could be dead today, but I suppose you know for fact that she is alive and well....right. So, you didnt prove I was incorrect. You cant use what some random biker says is safe as actually safe.

Anyway, our food is doped? Ok, now that is just ridiculous. And also, just an opinion of some random European. There is a difference between medication/ nutritional supplements and performance enhancing drugs. Caffiene is a stimulant, so I suppose you will say that lance is a doper because he had a diet coke the other day.

You realize that many Europeans hate that americans are entering the European cycling scene right? It is obvious that you encountered several bitter individuals, who love to make excuses for why an american rides as well has he does. A group of amateur Italians that need to dope to compete would obviously be jealous of someone that didnt need to. Their own faults and insecurities are not evidence of lance doping either.

Nice try, I especially liked your attempt to make an argument off of rumors AGAIN! Oh and just because you may have travelled to Europe to bike or watch bike races, does not make you the God of cycling knowledge. Stop pretending that your extensive list of rumors is actual insight.

micron

Bspeedy, you should really stop letting your distrust and hatred of all things European cloud your judgement. And read what people write instead of jumping to conclusions.

Your 'random Italian cyclist' is, if you read the post, an ex-Italian U-23 champion with a 10 year career in the Pro Peloton - somebody who would be in a position to know what goes on, wouldn't you think? But, because he's a European what do you care about his opnion - anybody whose not an American must be jealous of all Americans and their success. Just like all those Italians needing dope to do what you clearly think is just a club run - you'll be aware of course that doping is rife at the Etape du Tour (when amateurs and elite riders have the opportunity to ride one of the hardest TdF stages). But they're just amateurs having to use dope to do what the pros do dope free.

As to your food not being doped - I can only commend you for eating a 100% organic diet, because otherwise, my friend, if you ever eat a McDonalds/Taco Bell/whatever or buy your food from the average supermarket then you will be consuming a whole raft of growth hormones, steroids, antibiotics, pesticides etc etc. 'Not on the Label' is an excellent expose of the kinds of chemicals you find in eavy the apparent healthiest of foods (do you know your bag of salad leaves contains industrial bleach?). The EU has taken great strides to ban the use of growth hormone in the production of beef - and been opposed by the USA. Still, if you're happy to get your growth hormone through your burgers...

I'm English and over the past 10 years have lived in both France and the US. When an American friend came to visit me in 1999 we went to see the last TT in that year's Tour (as you'll recall Armstrong won). We took up our positions by the roadside, watched the race go through and then walked to the nearest bar to watch the climax of the 'race of truth'. The place was packed and the word soon went round that there was an 'Americain'. When Armstrong won, the place erupted - my friend was sent drinks from every corner of the bar and practically carried out and up the high street on a wave of immense bonhomie. You tell me that was a place full of jealous Frenchmen hating all Americans for ruining their race? And he encountered a similar attitude the next year when we went to a couple of stages early in the race. I've been admonished by more French people for not respecting Armstrong than I have Americans - and heard more Americans voice their doubts. I used to help organise racing in my region and the old men I worked with (and believe me they knew their cycling) were full of praise for 'the American' (whilst acknowledging that doping is simply a fact of life in the peloton).

One word of advice, I would stop your own 'faults and insecurities' from allowing you to make sweeping and incorrect generalisations (have you ever actually visited Europe?) and enough with the name calling. You may have noticed that most posters here construct arguments - you may disagree with them, and it may make you angry to see your idol being questioned, but please try and argue from a more objective or informed perspective.

limerickman

BSpeedy, I don't know your age or nationality, but let me tell you that American riders have received a lot of support and goodwill over here in Europe.
I well recall the days of Greg LeMond winning his T's DF, World Championships.
The French people openly supported Greg as he beat Bernard Hinault.
In fact, the French actively supported him in 1989 when he beat Fignon because the French perceived Fignon (who is French) as being arrogant !

Andy Hampsten was revered for his performances in the TDF and Giro.
A bloody good cyclist.

Taking your premise - if American cyclists were so despised as you seem to think - why has Hampsten for example been living in Tuscany since he
retired ?
You'd think all that abuse and jealous would persuade him not to live in
Europe ?

The issue we're discussing isn't the merits, or otherwise, of Europe V USA.
It is cycling and doping.

try to keep things in perspective.

bspeedy00

I will conceed that there are also many Europeans that support americans cycling, however, you must also conceed that there are plenty that hate it and cast rumors in an attempt to discredit the success of an american. I never stated that all american cyclists are hated, nor did I state that all Europeans hate americans. Further, I never implied that any European animosity would make an american cyclist feel unwelcome in Europe. You took my words further, not I.