The misconception of buying the cheapest

David Martin

I have winged at length before about how my wonderful road bike has been
running the same rear mech for many tens of thousands of km. And it has. I
stripped it down and the bushings are smooth ceramic, as they should be.

My MTB is not so fortunate. It started life with an Acera or Altus.
Something of that ilk, which lasted for a while. Being mean, I then bought a
shimano reversed cable thinghy which gave up working reliably almost before
it went on the bike (1 week commuting).

So I went over to SRAM and bought a 5.0. Nice mid-range mech, goes with the
shifters, and all is happy. Reasonable shifting performance, lots of miles,
and accuracy hasn't dropped off, even though it does occasionally unship the
chain from the guide pulley.

Until this week. I would normally expect to be able to freewheel or
backpedal without trouble but this leads to horrendous chain suck. So, after
spending the morning replacing what was left of the greenhouse roof after
this weeks little gust of wind and making bagels and bread, I gave it a good
clean. Much dirt and grime removed. A sticky pit of titanic proportions.
Somewhere in the accretions was a rear mech.

So it is all cleaned and back together and... it still doesn't work. The
jockey wheels are still crap (the plain steel bushings looked a bit corroded
when I cleaned them). So it is going to be binned, and I have learnt my
lesson. I have been scouring the net for a reasonably cheap rear mech with
decent pulley wheels, and, coupled with a wiggle e-voucheer have gone for an
XT one.

You are all going to tell me how crap it is, but at 30 quid I'm prepared to
take that risk. I might even be tempted to splash out and get a new chain
too. The rims are looking decidedly worn now, and the LX hubs are probably
due some TLC, so I might do a change to 9 speed when the time comes.

I thought MTB bits were supposed to be robust and long lasting. I never
seemed to have this much grief with the road bike.

Or maybe I should succumb to the lure and build a fixie and avoid all the
gear issues..

...d

Tosspot

David Martin wrote:

<snip tale of woe>

> Or maybe I should succumb to the lure and build a fixie and avoid all the
> gear issues..

<Hfffshhh> "Give yourself to the Dark Side... Yes. Your thoughts betray
you. Your feelings for them are strong."

I need to get out more :-(

Eatmorepies

> So it is all cleaned and back together and... it still doesn't work. The
> jockey wheels are still crap (the plain steel bushings looked a bit
corroded
> when I cleaned them). So it is going to be binned, and I have learnt my
> lesson. I have been scouring the net for a reasonably cheap rear mech with
> decent pulley wheels, and, coupled with a wiggle e-voucheer have gone for
an
> XT one.
>
> You are all going to tell me how crap it is, but at 30 quid I'm prepared
to
> take that risk.

I'm not.

XT is the one to buy. I run 3 year old XT gear stuff on my Marin FRS bike
and it still shifts perfectly. I clean the cables now and again and replace
them annually. I spray GT85 into the shifters after washing the bike. I ride
in Mid Wales so the bike is exposed to a lot of grinding mud, I do about a
1000+ miles a year off road. I use a set of 1997 cranks, I have replaced the
granny ring twice but the middle and large are original.

I did have some XTR but found the required lever force to be higher than XT
and whilst the rear mech lasted 4 years it cost 2.5 times more than XT. Who
knows? I may get another year out of my XT rear mech.

John

Pete Biggs

David Martin wrote:
> Until this week. I would normally expect to be able to freewheel or
> backpedal without trouble but this leads to horrendous chain suck.
> So, after spending the morning replacing what was left of the
> greenhouse roof after this weeks little gust of wind and making
> bagels and bread, I gave it a good clean. Much dirt and grime
> removed. A sticky pit of titanic proportions. Somewhere in the
> accretions was a rear mech.
>
> So it is all cleaned and back together and... it still doesn't work.

Are you sure the freehub is ok?

~PB

David Martin

On 15/1/05 10:37 pm, in article 34tk46F4e340hU1@individual.net, "Pete Biggs"
<pwrinkledgrape{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote:

> David Martin wrote:
>> Until this week. I would normally expect to be able to freewheel or
>> backpedal without trouble but this leads to horrendous chain suck.
>> So, after spending the morning replacing what was left of the
>> greenhouse roof after this weeks little gust of wind and making
>> bagels and bread, I gave it a good clean. Much dirt and grime
>> removed. A sticky pit of titanic proportions. Somewhere in the
>> accretions was a rear mech.
>>
>> So it is all cleaned and back together and... it still doesn't work.
>
> Are you sure the freehub is ok?
>

Yes. Freehub is fine. Having cleaned all the crap off it (short commute so
if it breaks I can walk to work in max 20 mins, add three kids and that
doesn't leave much time for clean and sparkling bikes) I was able to test
it.

The *really* annoying thing is that the pulley wheels are non-standard. They
are costomised for the mech. The guide pulley is fixed with an off centre
bolt (yes, really), and the cage makes up part of the axle for the tension
pulley. So I can't just replace the pulleys, which is what I would have
done. Bah!

It still works fine apart from giving me slack chain if I suddenly stop
peddaling or backpedal.

I might clean the chain if I can work out 1. if it has a quick link, and 2.
where under the protective layer of oily crud it is.


The good thing was that the greenhouse now has a much better roof and home
made bagels are wonderful.

...d

Mike Causer

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:28:36 +0000, David Martin wrote:

> and making bagels and bread,

Do you have a good recipe for bagels with UK-available ingredients? I've
not managed to make anything even remotely resembling the taste of a good
NYC bagel here.


Mike

David Martin

On 15/1/05 11:29 pm, in article
pan.2005.01.15.23.29.44.428918@firs...stname.com.invalid, "Mike Causer"
<mikec@firstnamelastname.com.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:28:36 +0000, David Martin wrote:
>
>> and making bagels and bread,
>
> Do you have a good recipe for bagels with UK-available ingredients? I've
> not managed to make anything even remotely resembling the taste of a good
> NYC bagel here.

I have no idea what a NYC bagel tastes like. But this is the recipe I use:

450g flour (strong white unbleached bread flour)
1 pkt easy use dried yeast or similar.
115ml hot water
115ml cold milk
1 heaped tsp fructose (substitute normal sugar if you want, I use fructose
for family reasons)
1 tsp salt
1 egg.
30ml extra virgin olive oil
cold water.

large pan of boiling water
baking trays
oven at 400F or 200C


To do:
take 400g of flour, add the salt and mix in a bowl.

take half the milk and water (should be lukewarm when mixed) and mix in a
jug with the fructose. Add the yeast and stir. allow it to go frothy..

meanwhile, separate the yolk from the white and beat the white till it is
nicely fluffy.

make a well in the flour. Add the rest of the water and milk to the jug and
pour into the well. Add the oil and the egg white.
Using a whisk (I use an electric whisk) beat theliquid till it mixes and
starts to drag in the flour. Continue by hand till there is a nice smooth
dough, adding extra flour as necessary.

Turn out onto a floured surface and leave for 5-10 mins. Wash the bowl up
and dry it. add a smear of oil in the base to prevent the dough sticking.
Knead the dough well till really nice and smooth then place back into the
bowl to prove for 1.5-2 hours till at least doubled in size. You'll want to
put clingfilm or a wet tea towel over the top of the bowl.

Depending on the size of bagel you want, chop the dough up into appropriate
pieces (I find this much mix makes about 8 good sized ones). shape
appropriately [1] and leave to rise for 45 mins.

After 30 mins, turn on the oven and get the pan of water boiling. Poach each
bagel for 30 seconds and replace on the baking tray.

Mix the yolk with twice its volume (30 ml) cold water and use to glaze the
bagels. Gives them a lovely shiny brown crust.

Cook for 20-25 minutes approx until done.

Enjoy, great with butter and cream cheeese or honey or both or whatever you
fancy.

Great toasted the next day as well.

...d

[1] Two methods I have tried. One is to roll each piece of dough into a
sausage about 8 inches long, then make it into a ring, joining the ends. The
second is to make the dough into a ball, flatten it then push a finger
through the middle and spin (carefully) the dough round to thin the torus
and make the hole bigger.

Paul - xxx

David Martin composed the following;:

> You are all going to tell me how crap it is, but at 30 quid I'm
> prepared to take that risk. I might even be tempted to splash out and
> get a new chain too. The rims are looking decidedly worn now, and the
> LX hubs are probably due some TLC, so I might do a change to 9 speed
> when the time comes.

I've found that LX and above work and wear well. I still have a STX RC
rear mech that works fine that's about 9 or so years old and was OE on
my bike and was transplanted to my wifes bike (el-cheapo Townsend 'cos
it's a nice colour) about 7 years ago when I got an XT chainset.

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ...
"A tosser is a tosser, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

David Martin

On 16/1/05 12:40 am, in article 34trfkF4b6qc6U1@individual.net, "Paul - xxx"
<notcheckedever@hotmail.com> wrote:

> David Martin composed the following;:
>
>> You are all going to tell me how crap it is, but at 30 quid I'm
>> prepared to take that risk. I might even be tempted to splash out and
>> get a new chain too. The rims are looking decidedly worn now, and the
>> LX hubs are probably due some TLC, so I might do a change to 9 speed
>> when the time comes.
>
> I've found that LX and above work and wear well. I still have a STX RC
> rear mech that works fine that's about 9 or so years old and was OE on
> my bike and was transplanted to my wifes bike (el-cheapo Townsend 'cos
> it's a nice colour) about 7 years ago when I got an XT chainset.

I've got RLX calipers on the road bike, and whiel they function adequately,
the finish just hasn't stayed as well as the Sante pieces that have been on
there twice as long. I have a pair of LX hubs on the commuter/MTB and they
are in far worse state than the much older and further travelled Ultegra
hubs (possible 600 rather than Ultegra) on the road bike.

I personally will now only buy at the 105/Ultegra and XT levels. I can't be
faffed with stuff being hard to fettle in months rather than years.

And rims don't seem to last like they used to either..
<grumble>
...d

Paul - xxx

David Martin composed the following;:
> On 16/1/05 12:40 am, in article 34trfkF4b6qc6U1@individual.net, "Paul
> - xxx" <notcheckedever@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> David Martin composed the following;:
>>
>>> You are all going to tell me how crap it is, but at 30 quid I'm
>>> prepared to take that risk. I might even be tempted to splash out
>>> and get a new chain too. The rims are looking decidedly worn now,
>>> and the LX hubs are probably due some TLC, so I might do a change
>>> to 9 speed when the time comes.
>>
>> I've found that LX and above work and wear well. I still have a STX
>> RC rear mech that works fine that's about 9 or so years old and was
>> OE on my bike and was transplanted to my wifes bike (el-cheapo
>> Townsend 'cos it's a nice colour) about 7 years ago when I got an XT
>> chainset.
>
> I've got RLX calipers on the road bike, and whiel they function
> adequately, the finish just hasn't stayed as well as the Sante pieces
> that have been on there twice as long. I have a pair of LX hubs on
> the commuter/MTB and they are in far worse state than the much older
> and further travelled Ultegra hubs (possible 600 rather than Ultegra)
> on the road bike.
>
> I personally will now only buy at the 105/Ultegra and XT levels. I
> can't be faffed with stuff being hard to fettle in months rather than
> years.
>
> And rims don't seem to last like they used to either..
> <grumble>
> ..d

Heh, you're right about finish on STX, it didn't take long to lose it's
sparkle, but then it stayed 'a bit grubby> However, it's function is
still probably as good as new. I know there's bound to be some slop,
but regular standard maintenance keeps it all in check.

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ...
"A tosser is a tosser, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

David Martin

On 16/1/05 12:49 am, in article 34ts1eF4fdfvnU1@individual.net, "Paul - xxx"
<notcheckedever@hotmail.com> wrote:


> Heh, you're right about finish on STX, it didn't take long to lose it's
> sparkle, but then it stayed 'a bit grubby> However, it's function is
> still probably as good as new. I know there's bound to be some slop,
> but regular standard maintenance keeps it all in check.

On the other hand, my Ultegra chainset which I have had on the bike since I
first built it up, is absolutely fantastic, apart from the rubbing of the
shoes against the cranks.
It has been on there for more than 15 years and the finish is excellent.

The bottom bracket was also good. I have changed that this year because the
frame wasn¹t brilliantly finished so the cup¹n¹cone didn¹t sit as solidly as
it should. Despite that, 20-30K miles of abuse and it is still really good.

If you want to buy a bike that will stay good for years of use, buy the near
top range components (Ultegra/Chorus). None of my Ultegra bits has given up
through wear except the headset which was lousy. Went digital after a mere
20,000 miles. A Stronglight A9 fixed that though.

...d

Pete Biggs

David Martin wrote:

> If you want to buy a bike that will stay good for years of use, buy
> the near top range components (Ultegra/Chorus).

When you look into the details, this idea seems a bit overstated and
outdated now. It's more weight saving and slightly better function that
you tend to get when you pay more.

There's hardly any difference between Chorus and Centaur in terms of
durability (eg. hubs are virtually identical), and even Chorus and Mirage
for some parts*. And modern low-end MTB Shimano seems to work and stay
working well enough.

* For instance, Mirage Ergo levers share many of the same important parts
and are functionally the same as Chorus (9sp) except have a bushing
instead of ball bearings, and I've never heard of this bushing wearing
out.

~PB

Clive George

"David Martin" <d.m.a.martin@dundee.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:BE0F6E79.76F3%d.m.a.martin@dundee.ac.uk...

> On the other hand, my Ultegra chainset which I have had on the bike since
I
> first built it up, is absolutely fantastic, apart from the rubbing of the
> shoes against the cranks.
> It has been on there for more than 15 years and the finish is excellent.

Yebbut what is there to go wrong with a chainset?

cheers,
clive

Peter B

"David Martin" <d.m.a.martin@dundee.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:BE0F3B84.7680%d.m.a.martin@dundee.ac.uk...

XT rear mechs are great. I had over 3 years out of my last one (it got
through a couple of sets of jockeys) and only replaced it because I psyched
myself into thinking the slop on the pins may cause poor shifting. Its
replacement has managed perhaps 18 months now although it got bent out of
line after striking something, I had a cack handed attempt at straightening
it using brute force and ignorance which achieved nothing and it still
refused to lay down!

Do check out the wheel bearings in the freehub side, without wishing to be
controversial I've had problems in that area.

Pete