Calling Out Flyer

VeloFlash

Not all the professional peloton dopes. Willy Voet, the Festina soigneur who was busted with a car full of dope in 1998, claims that only 95% of the peloton dope. The 5% who do not dope are generally known and sometimes despised by their fellow riders for speaking out.

Alex Zulle who was caught in the Festina affair was quoted as a justifiable defence by stating with words to the effect: "Drugs are part of the business of cycling."

If I was a betting man I would speculate that all TdF winners would not be in the clean 5%.

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VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

NRW77

Why is it that people are chastised and shunned as "haters" or spreaders of ill-will for speaking about controversial topics? This is the same attittude adopted by the Bush administration regarding the war in Iraq and it's foreign policy agenda: You're either with us or against us. Trite oversimplification like this not only polarizes the debate, it takes any real debating out of the debate because the argument becomes one of ego and "us vs. them" rather than of facts.
It seems to me that all flyer is saying is that doping is a real and pervasive problem within the pro peloton. DUH!!! Is he correct in his assertions that ALL pros are doping? Probably not entirely because there are bound to be a couple of lone-wolf type hold outs who refuse to dope but by and large, flyer's assertions mirror those of several other posters here with connections inside pro cycling as well as those of other industry insiders I have spoken to or read quotes from.
This notion that criticizing something you love is disloyal is short-sighted and unrealistic. Without criticism there can be no learning or advancement, whether of a sport or a governent, or a poorly run corporation.
And not for nothing, but how in the hell can anyone (Yes you Housey)take flyers comments personally? I am not a pro racer and have never won an international race, therfore I am personally exempt from flyers accusations. Having not spent time inside the pro-peloton or in the company of people who have,I am not in a position to have self-righteous temper tantrums and call flyer a liar (rhymes are fun). I do know that I don't see a lot of doping at the CAT 4/5 races that I participate in and that is a good thing
Did anyone else read the interview with Peter Winnen (former Duutch pro rider form the '80s) in Cycle Sport a couple of months ago where he suggesteed legalized doping? Interesting points if read with an open mind. At one point in the article he makes the arguent that if a B-vitamin bost is allowed for a rider who is depleted and worn out in the middle of the tour, why shouldn't he also be allowed to boost his red bood cell production if it, too, is depleted? His point,it seemed. was to take a look at the deands of an event like thhe TDF and to consider what is "doping" as opposed to restoring your body to its originl condition if it has dropped below. I am not interested in debating the merits of these comments, they are not my own, just some food for thought.
We would al do well to reember, too, that doping may bost performance but it ain't gonna turn a Ford Focus into a Ferrari Testarosa. There really isn't any need for fans to take doping personally I think. It makes me feel more sorry for the athletes involved that they are under such pressure to perform and have to live these secret lives looking over their shoulders. I am certainly not self-centered enough to feel like their doping has robbed me of something personally. That's a bit like the over-zealous anti smokers who feel that every time someone lights up a cigarette its a personal attack. Once upon a time I discoverd that most of what other people do realy doesn't have anything to do with me. Imagine that.

NW

House

The difference is that Flyer is not merely "discussing" controversial topics, he is trying to convince everyone that the entire sport is dirty. When he does this he only mentions things that somewhat support his case or in his mind alone support his case, refusing to answer any questions, turning every discussion into his agenda and conveniently leaving out bits of info that don't support what he says. If you were a big fan of rugby and got on a rugby message board full of fans about rugby and found one person calling every rugby player a cheat and a fraud and doing the things I listed above would you not think that he hates the sport? Think about it and think about Flyer. Go look through his archive and see how much time he spends on trying to convince all of us fans of the sport how bad it is.

Beastt

If this were all he were saying, I'd be in perfect agreement with you. I would also suspect that many others who disagree with him would be more understanding of that type of action. But that's not all he's doing. He has obviously set out on a personal crusade to dirty Armstrong's name and attempt to connect him with doping, with or without proof. If he has to take down all of cycling in the process, he's clearly willing to do so.


On this point I couldn't agree with you more. I've attempted to make the same point myself on several occasions as have many others. Unfortunately, those intent on proving that for which they have no proof seem unswayed by such an argument. Obviously, doping or not, Armstrong has the engine of a thoroughbred... errr... breeding of a sports car....

...well, you know.

wilmar13

I couldn't agree more on Beastt's first point. There are many on this forum who argue that they think the majority of the peloton is engaging in doping, and it is a major problem. I doubt anyone has an issue with anyone else having this opinion at all. If they do, I don't see why they would.

The second statement about his personal crusade to dirty Armstrong's name and take down cycling in the process is a possibility, but I don't think that is the most likely explanation. It certainly seems that way on the surface but I think he is just trolling, doing what a stereotypical troll does, by pushing peoples buttons, and then sitting back watching the inevitable results (people trying in vain to rationalize with him, etc.) If you think he is chastised for having a controversial opinion, you need to go back and read (not skim) everything he has written in the last week. Either he is not playing with a full deck or he is a troll, I give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is just having his fun with everyone.

fallensparrow

I don't believe Flyer ever stated the "entire sport" is dirty. He hasn't stated any place that "every" road racer is a cheat, fraud, etc. I see Flyer as being passionate about dealing with the doping epedemic in professional cycling today. My suggest would be to ask yourself this... do you House, in your estimation, know more or less about the current state of cycling then Flyer? If the answer is "less" then perhaps you'd do better sitting back and thoughtfully reflect on what he has to say rather then flaming someone who honestly has cyclings better interest at heart... clean, honest and fair competition where the athletes don't have to risk their lives/health to persue to sport they love at its highest level.

ps: Flyer seems to have answered nearly all of your questions fairly well in my opinion given with what he has to work with. Perhaps a better strategy would be to ask him to limit his posting "doping crusade" to only 1 day a week. That way you'd only have to feel annoyed 1 evening a week... maximum of maybe 2 if he mentions Lance and Tyler in the same post.

fallensparrow

kennf

While we can all benefit from the educational aspects of posts concerning doping (i.e. descriptions of drugs, documented accounts of past doping incidents, and descriptions of physiological effects by qualified people), I think people get upset with Flyer because that is not the intent of probably 90% of his posts. If you keep posting the same thing (or even more annoying, replying to your own post because no one else will) using 10 word paragraphs with conclusory statements, it gives you the appearence of a troll, not an educator, and instead of being informative, the posts appear more like tabloid journalism. I think some of his posts have useful information, but the constant baiting of Lance fans, and the somewhat bizarre paranoia of "corporate America" wears thin on a forum titled "Road Racing."

House

I don't think Flyer knows very much about procycling since the only thing he mentions are dope busts, allegations and the like, never mentioning anything that might make the allegations false or any of the races..anything else at all. Go back and read what Flyer writes he has repeated over and over that the whole peloton is dirty. Flyer hates cycling, why else would you only discuss the negatives and claim everyone is a fraud and a doper? If you can't see this then you are as blinds as he is.


No offense but your reading skills are obviously lacking, Flyer has NEVER answered a single question of mine with a direct answer (which is the exact term I have used) he always dances around answering and posts the parts of stories that he likes. Go back and reread and you will see this.

fallensparrow

Fair enough. I think he would make everyone a little happier if he limited his posts to a once a week editorial/summerage of the weeks "doping" proceedings. Spamming a forum not devoted to the subject in question <doping> isn't good manners anywhere I frequent. I mean what if someone came on initiating posts after post on the merits Campy has over Shampy ... that would get old real fast to.

House: I personally believe Flyer knows more about procycling and road racing then the majority of the readers on this forum. How is it that you think that "Flyer hates cycling?" I am still trying to read that into any of his posts and can't come up with anything House. Professional cycling at its highest level ... the level to which Flyer is referring I believe, is only a grain of sand on the beach of cycling and its many facets worldwide. As for your questions for Flyer the majority of them can't be answered without one being some kind of omnipotent being... so I'm not surprised you find his answers lacking.

My question to you House is what part of the "PRO-Tour peleton being doped" do you find so distasteful/unbelievable to be out of the relm of possibility? I would suggest you look at all the little pieces of the puzzle including the history of drug use in cycling over the past 100+ years reading past accounts from athletes, coaches, doctors... what nations manufacture performance enhancing drugs and their governments past record on drug use, where the drugs these nations produce go/"disappear" to, the huge performance enhancing benefits of these drugs (bumping your hemocrit up from 42 to 49% we are talking a >12% increase in aerobic performance... in a sport where mere seconds decides 1st from 10th in TTs) and the fact that anti-dope testing is always at best 3 or 4 steps behind the latest medications/masking agents (even if the doping agencies actually wanted to expose doping - remember pro racing = big $$$ for everyone concerned) and lastly ... actually talk to pro racers which I believe is one of Flyers strong points in this discussion. Your not going to get hard and fast answers on the subject. You'll only ever see bits and pieces that you'll have to sort and manage through; and ultimately try and come up with some conclusion over... much like evolution/creationism etc, right?

fallensparrow

House

Omnipotent being? Asking for proof of what he is claiming is true? Asking for links to the stories he is trying to sell? Come on, you can't be serious. How do you know he is so knowledgeable about anything other then doping? He never posts about anything else. Are you his brother? Certainly anyone who isn't related to him can't say this after actually reading his posts.


Hard and fast answers?? Try NO answers from him. He knows pro racers??? According to him. Would you believe that I started racing and trained with a very good friend/former teammate of Lance? How about that I have connections directly to Lance? I also had a nice chat with Thor Hushovd last spring on IM's. Obviously since you believe Flyer you must believe me. I have never said there is no doping, which is what people like you and flyer believe I am saying because I am not screaming condemnations in every post. Flyer has said repeatedly that 100% of the pro peloton dopes. I know for a fact it's not true. If Flyer is such a big fan of cycling why does he spend 99% of his posts (he actually posted one not involving doping today, so I won't say 100%) trying to rip it, trying to convince others that it's bad? Say what you want, but you are turning a blind eye to not see what everyone else sees flyer doing.

tcklyde

I agree that a lot of the evidence Flyer sites isn't so strong. And I've bickered with him about it. But I think all of need to realize that, even though we love it, our sport has a major, serious, terrible doping problem. The #3 ranked man on the new ProTour standings just tested positive. You'd havehoped some riders would expressed disappointment this week. Hell, how about a little outrage? If I was Thor Hushovd, I'd be raising hell about a cheater knocking me out of 2nd out Milan-San Remo. But instead, it seems like the sport just had a little shrug and moved on.

We're not talking about 3rd rate riders trying to hold on to a spot on a pro team. We're talking about guys at the top of the sport. The doping problem has not been solved; it's deep roots still obviously have a powerful hold on ridrers. To that extent, Flyer has a lot worth listening to.

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Harry

House

But what you have to realise is that Flyer doesn't care whether we know there is a problem, which all of us who follow the sport know, he only wants every one of the condemn everyone in the peloton at the top of our voices. Just look at the things he says. Not once have I said there is no doping in cycling, yet he repeatedly implys that I have.

House

Flyer if you were any more full of shit. I love how after getting your ass handed to you by everyone you suddenly remember all these friends of yours. What a joke! I also love how you get defensive about the people you supposedly know but then make assumptions about others. I guarantee you that you have never come close to the levels of sport that I have. You are a joke and you prove it with every post, never saying anything new, just repeating the few "facts" that everyone has already heard about.