pealling push up push down

n crowley

That style has been used by climbers who actually do a bit of pulling back as well when seated back on the saddle. It is possible to pull up effectively when out of the saddle for acceleration and steep climbing but pulling up power is limited, you can prove that by testing how much continuous repetitive pulling up power you can generate when off the bike. I do not understand how pulling up can give you smoother pedal power because you are applying it to the chain at the same time as you are supposed to be applying max downward pressure. Smoothing out the pedal stroke means attempting to apply as near as possible to equal chaindrive power to the chainwheel at all times and this can only be done by increasing the power to the pedals in the 11 to 1 o'c area of the pedal stroke. As I see it, the mistake that is made is in trying to apply equal power to the pedal throughout its 360 degree revolution when the correct way of doing it is to apply equal maximum power to each pedal through only 180 degrees of its revolution, then you have smooth pedalling.

Brizza

The idea is pull and push as hard as possible, but also to push during the 11-1 section of the pedal stroke.

XC riders practice this on slippery surfaces, but this doesn't mean that they go "easier"on the down or up section unless they are struggling for grip.

You know your getting better at it when different muscles feel sore. My vastus medialis has been sore after each such ride (it's not normally a cycling muscle as it extends the low leg, but I've learnt to utilise it in my pedal stroke).

It's taken me a few years to this point and I suspect I'll be working on it forever as I grow stronger in some areas and not in others.

n crowley

The real test of any pedalling technique is can it be used for the same power generating advantages when maximum power is required at a cadence of 100, if not, you will revert back to your old style whenever you are put under pressure.

Brizza

We're talking about techniques that increase you power output, given that you've just blown everyone else off your wheel (cause you havn't moved up a grade yet) reverting back to your old technique wouldn't be a problem, although you should keep working at it so that you can maintain the technique for longer (no-one said this would make you LA overnight).

100 is not the magic number, some riders idol (max sustainable output) above 120, others below 80, but it depends on the riders legs (LA and JU are good examples).

There is no set rule about what works. Experiment during training with new techniques and use them if they work for you.

[I alternate between high and low cadence during most races to give my legs a rest with each cycle.

ganderctr

For me this style allows me to use slightly different muscles to get a 30 second break from my normal pedaling. Otherwise, pulling up is mostly ineffective except when I'm sprinting.

Brizza

Pulling up can be very useful for a quick acceleration (surges), but I'd suggest you work on "push" for sprinting.

I like to climb using the pull and decend using the push so that my legs are constantly recoving from the last effort.

n crowley

[QUOTE=Brizza]We're talking about techniques that increase you power output, given that you've just blown everyone else off your wheel (cause you havn't moved up a grade yet) reverting back to your old technique wouldn't be a problem,



It would be a problem, if you revert back to old style, you lose your power increase. The only perfect pedalling technique is the one that generates maximum pedal power and distributes it equally over 180 degrees of each pedal/crank circle with the same muscle movement from start to finish of that power application. The problem with using different toes up and down movements and applying the power in different directions during the pedal stroke is that when cadence increase or maximum power is required, the brain will take a shortcut and use only the most powerful muscle power generating movement. That explains why mashing is more effective than circular pedalling or ankling in TT's and why linear pedalling is best of all.

Brizza

While Jan might agree, I doubt Lance would.

Just because it works for you (or Jan or Lance), doesn't make it the perfect technique, just the one that works for you.

We need to train our body to use different techniques if they are helpful for us. Yes the body does cheat and we need to correct such problems, it's not something we perfect overnight

Are you really suggesting that you produce the same output using platform pedals as you do with clipless?

Mansmind

Recall that I never indicated that changing my pedaling stroke on a hill gives me more power, I only indicated that it allows me to generate power in a slightly different way. I would go so far as to say that "heel down" is not a style that would lend itself well to a very high cadence. I typically don't use it unless I'm climbing a hill that forces me below 75 rpm or so.

I do agree that the ideal pedaling stroke would apply power over 180 degrees of the stroke evenly. I also find that to be a somewhat unrealistic goal. In theory, it seems unlikely that someone would be able to apply as much power in the 12 o'clock position as they would in the 3 o'clock position....at least if you're looking at the force of one leg.

I also think that it's possible (in fact I know it is) to apply a minimal amount of force before 12:00... say at 11:00. It's also possible to apply a minimal force between 6:00 - 7:00. As an illustration, consider the following. (the percentages being amount of force applied)

11:00 -12:00 15%
12:00 - 1:00 25%
1:00 - 2:00 50%
2:00 - 4:00 100%
4:00 - 5:00 50%
5:00 - 6:00 25%
6:00 - 7:00 15%

I'm sure the actual force distribution is different than this, I'm merely using the values to illustrate my point. I'm also assuming insignificant power at every other position of the circle, which to me seems more efficient. In my experience attempting to "add" power by pulling up is useless. True you can make it "feel" even, but in effect I think most (I know I do) actually reduce force of the pushing leg.

Because of the opposing nature of the cranks, There are 4 areas in this cycle in which you're getting force benefit from both legs...11 - 12,1-2,5-6, and 6-7. Net effect, when you combine both legs is that you're getting 40% force from both legs. That, to me, seems to be new found force for generating more power, or if not more power, then at least more efficient power as it is more evenly spread over the entire revolution of the cranks.

Again, I realize the actual percentages of force applied are incorrect, they're based upon nothing other than the "feel" of riding my bike. I do NOT spend time attempting to pedal circles, although I have tried to adapt a style that feels relatively smooth. It feels very natural, and by far the most force is applied between 1-5:00. I just feel that you can get some benefit from the positions leading up to, and trailing that particular period.

It also seems a more real world solution in the attempt to produce even force over 180 degrees of rotation. What do you think?

John

n crowley

Applying maximum force through 180 deg. of the pedal stroke or total elimination of the dead spot area is a very simple task when you know how and I have explained it before on earlier threads on this site. Elimination of upper dead spot area also means automatic elimination of lower area.
It's a simple case of fire/reload----pull/push. The legs do the firing and reloading while the arms do the pulling and pushing. Maximum power is fired from the hips to the pedal at 11 and continues to 5, reloading means instant and total unweighting and drawing back of idling leg to 10 for a special spring loaded effect and instant takeover of power application at 11. The pulling of the arm supplies the resistance while the pushing stabilizes for easier total unweighting in addition to supporting all the upper body weight. Despite all the pushing and pulling, an onlooker would not even know the upper body was being used. One other important item of note is that this is a linear style in which direct downward or vertical pedal pressure is never used.
Anquetil used that linear style and an example its smoothness was given by J Bobet who rode during those years. A rider who believed that Anquetil's success in time trials was due to the wheels he was using asked for a loan of a set of his wheels. Within 3 kms. that rider had wrecked those wheels with the pedalling style he was using. As I said, we have been through all this before on other threads.

ric_stern/RST

what did he do? hit them with a hammer which was attached to his pedals.

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Mansmind

Would I be correct in assuming there is some heel dropping going on in there? It sounds suspiciously like what I like to do while climbing.

Brizza

Thanks for guessing the possible power at each point, I'd like to suggest which muscles can be used at these points (assuming seated).

10:00 - 2:00 the Vastus Medialis can give some assistance. It's not a natural cycling muscle but it can be trained to produce power in your pedal stroke.

1:00 - 5:00 the Quadrecept muscle group and the hamstrings, much as you would see if doing a 45% leg press The calves can also produce some power in this section.

4:00 - 10:00 the hamstrings and Gluteal muscles can produce power on the up stroke.

Sure the quads are the most powerful (easily seen on a leg press) but why would you ignore the output of the other muscles? Even the small output from the Vastus Medialis can make a substantial difference over a race.Naturally the more you train these muscles the more output they will supply.

n crowley

No, there is no heel dropping, the power is coming from the hips, not the thigh muscles and it is applied tangentially from the hip to the pedal axle with the same power generating muscle work at all times. Thigh, calf muscles and greater use of the ankle make this continuous tangential power application possible. That power distribution would be 11-5 o'c 100% all the way but due to unweighting effect, additional gravity effect power would be added in the 1-5 area of the stroke. That continuous tangential power from hip to pedal axle explains why vertical pedal pressure is never used with this technique.