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Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness

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Old 27-05.-2005, 12:24 AM   #92
biker-linz
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapDaddyo
Well, I am making a key assumption here, specifically that my legs are producing more force on their downstrokes than the other leg is producing on its upstroke. I make this assumption for two reasons, one general and one particular to me. My first assumption is that my muscles can produce more force on the downstroke than the upstroke. If there was a contest, the leg pulling up would lose to the leg pushing down. My second assumption is that this is particularly the case with me, since I have never particularly worked on pulling up or pedaling in a circular fashion. The only pedaling mechanics work I have done is to try to get smoother at all cadences by practicing from time to time at high cadences (e.g., 125-140). So, if I'm pulling up it's just a natural, instinctive thing, whereas I am acutely aware of pushing down.
*Everybody* demonstrates a peak on their downstroke, so you're in great and numerous company! What I meant was not necessarily that you pull *up* on the upstroke, but that you might 'unweight' one leg more than the other (in fact you probably do). It is impossible to tell from a power meter torque trace how much this contributes to measurements of 'balance' from one leg to another. Actually one leg might just be slightly heavier than the other. Same muscular input, different force measures at the hub or cranks if summed together. For example, say your PM tells you that you generate 10% greater peak torque when your right crank is at 3 o'clock as opposed to your left crank is this:
a. because your right leg is generating greater peak torque or
b. your left leg is more 'unweighted' than your right
and vice versa? Without this information it is impossible to make corrections to the balance between your legs, even if it were desirable to do so. You might look at the data above and mistakenly conclude that you need to push harder with your left leg, when in truth both right and left legs are pushing equally hard and what you need to do is unweight one leg less (or the other leg more, if all you want is to even up the sum-forces). The comment in brackets sounds silly, but it is a good illustration of how evening up L / R balance might damage rather than enhance performance if taken to its logical conclusion.

L.
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Old 27-05.-2005, 12:45 AM   #93
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
This post is quite typical of what one needs to beware. It eminates from a commerical coaching website-the poster represents himself (herself?) as a disinterested party. I doubt this is true and the poster should immediatley state his (or her) conflicts of interest.

The website is my own very small business. I do not sell power meters of any kind, nor to I make any kind of living out of coaching, so no conflicts of interest at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
It would also be interesting to what the meaning of the poster's background is-what level of student at what institution, etc.
As stated in my signature I am an MSc student, studying Exercise Physiology at Wolverhampton University. I am currently doing a project as part of my Masters investigating the relationship between differing inertial loads and the responses of trained cyclists. In this venture we have had cause to gather torque data, so I have some experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
I mention this because, just as an example, some self-styled experts glorify themselves as members of a British Cyling Coach organization-but this organization has no official connection with British Cycling!
The Association of British Cycle Coaches is a highly respected coaching organisation in its own right. I was not trying to be an expert either, I'm just presenting the data I have access to. If you would like me to send you references to back up all the points I have made I will try to find the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
INow as to the points raised by this post.
Neither myself nor anyone contends that the sole use of PM's is for guiding intensity during workouts-however, it's obviously the main use.
It's *one* of the uses, but there are plenty more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
Needless to say, results must be recorded, compared, etc.
Accurate Endurance and other zones ar not easy to determine for many reasons-the data obtained under lab conditions (free of road problems) can't be readily translated to the road. PM's are difficult to use and data obtained on the road isn't always uniform.
As I stated in my original post, zones can be moderated 'on the fly' quite easily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
The poster's experience with PowerTap is unique-the problems with this equipment are legend-as are problems with ALL PM's.
I only shared my experience and have no apologies for doing so. I'm sure there are other happy PT users out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
As for smooth pedaling, I contend that without a smooth pedaling technique readable Wattage information won't be available during a ride-unless the user's PM has an active smoothening feature for Watts.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here; I know that wattage data are highly variable during a ride but most people either use a smoothing filter as you suggest or just average power across intervals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
Whether or not smooth pedaling is a good thing or not is a value judgement..
I disagree, there is strong evidence from published papers indicating otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
I have no opinion on the matter at present, however, looking a LA's TDF results, I suspect it may be important. Ditto for cadence.
Unfortunately I don't have access to Armstrong's torque data so it's difficult to say.
I hope I have been of some help, although I won't be contributing any more to this thread.
All the best,

Lindsay
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Old 27-05.-2005, 01:32 AM   #94
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
[QUOTE=gholl]This post is quite typical of what one needs to beware.


One does need to beware all the misinformation about training found on the web, but I think it's you, gholl, who is spreading some. Furthermore, Linz is very well informed, very objectively scientific, and contributes prolifically to useful info about cycling.

Armstrong is good because he generates more power, mostly because he was endowed with the talent (and works hard). What about all the local amateurs with "smooth" pedaling; why aren't they winning, or even Doing, the Tour.

The large majority of PT problems are very minor. The others are handled very well by great service. Still, most PT's have no problems at all and you never hear about those. I have no interest in PT except that I own a couple which work perfectly.

The most useful information you get from a pm is in looking at power averages over different time intervals, especially when going all out. It's surprising at first how reproducible the numbers are even when power is variable. However, ability to produce power is based on physiology which doesn't change all that quickly.
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Old 27-05.-2005, 02:59 AM   #96
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
As to the organization you belong to-I repeat it has nothing to do with official British Cycling at all-I will publish a post from the official organization if I must. Publishing your membership in the "Association of British Cycle Coaches "is deceptive at best.


I don't believe anyone has suggested that the Association of British Cycle Coaches is anything to do with (the) British Cycling (Federation). The ABCC is far older coaching association and predates the very recent coaching effort from BC by a long way (not that i am in anyway infering that the BC's coaching isn't 'good enough'). The ABCC has been established for a long time. It is in no way deceptive.

I therefore suggest that you offer Lindsay an immediate and unconditional apology.

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Old 27-05.-2005, 03:12 AM   #97
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by biker-linz
*Everybody* demonstrates a peak on their downstroke, so you're in great and numerous company! What I meant was not necessarily that you pull *up* on the upstroke, but that you might 'unweight' one leg more than the other (in fact you probably do). It is impossible to tell from a power meter torque trace how much this contributes to measurements of 'balance' from one leg to another. Actually one leg might just be slightly heavier than the other. Same muscular input, different force measures at the hub or cranks if summed together. For example, say your PM tells you that you generate 10% greater peak torque when your right crank is at 3 o'clock as opposed to your left crank is this:
a. because your right leg is generating greater peak torque or
b. your left leg is more 'unweighted' than your right
and vice versa? Without this information it is impossible to make corrections to the balance between your legs, even if it were desirable to do so. You might look at the data above and mistakenly conclude that you need to push harder with your left leg, when in truth both right and left legs are pushing equally hard and what you need to do is unweight one leg less (or the other leg more, if all you want is to even up the sum-forces). The comment in brackets sounds silly, but it is a good illustration of how evening up L / R balance might damage rather than enhance performance if taken to its logical conclusion.

L.
You make a good point. And, without doing some experimenting I don't know whether I would be able to achieve my primary objective (generate max power over the desired duration) with a more balanced pedaling pattern than I do now (assuming that I have an unbalanced pattern). As to PMs, the issue in my mind is whether any of the available products supports such an endeavor or whether I would need to find a lab with force-instrumented pedals.

I appreciate your inputs on this thread. If I didn't learn to absord and reconcile competing and contradictory information from multiple sources before I got a master's and doctorate from a prestigious university in Boston, I certainly did then. I started this thread and I welcome any and all contributions to the questions I asked. I am here to learn, and successful cyclists and coaches have an abundance of knowledge that I don't. I welcome your input. And, by the way, I have spent a fair bit of time in the UK. Your food's lousy, but your real ale (I always liked Ruddles County) and cyclists and football players and golf courses aren't too shabby.
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Old 27-05.-2005, 05:35 AM   #99
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by biker-linz
I'm not sure about the whole L/R balance issue to be honest with you; I don't think there are any data either way.


Actually, there are, mostly for untrained subjects, but also at least one study of trained cyclists as well. The most salient points would seem to be: 1) asymmetries of up to 10% are very common, but 2) which leg is dominant can vary depending on the power output, the cadence, and even from day to day. The latter in particular would seem to make it a difficult issue to address from a performance/training priorities perspective.
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Old 27-05.-2005, 05:40 AM   #100
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by jws
.... Furthermore, Linz is very well informed, very objectively scientific, and contributes prolifically to useful info about cycling.
Indeed, to this forum and others.
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Old 27-05.-2005, 05:47 AM   #101
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
Why Mr. Stern what would you have me retract? As a member of the ABCC ( the qualification is used in your own self-promotion) you must know that the ABCC has the same relationship with official British cycling as the Salvation Army with the British Army-that is to say-none. The innocent reader has no way to know this. You also know that neither you nor your compatriot have ever attended the courses given by or obtained a certification from the official organ of British cycling-The British Cycling Federation. I'll be happy to publish a communication from them specifically about you, if you like. I thought this a deception then; I think it a deception now. I've given you my reasons, which I here dare you to refute. Your rage I defy.
Neither your own CV or business practices are so formidable either, and as for your own morals (which we've discussed in private), like those of your friend, incline me to regard not what you shall say, but what you can prove.
Recall that I sought to keep these matters private but your actions give me no choice but to make them public.


I'm not sure what you don't understand, but the ABCC is not part of the BC(F) and neither Lindsay, or myself have said otherwise. The name of the ABCC has been around for a long period of time, and at one point was (i believe) the official coaching 'arm' of the BCF.

I have no idea what communication you have recieved from the BCF, but as i'm not a BCF coach i have no idea why they would comment about me.

There has been no deception. I suggest you withdraw such ridiculous statements.
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Old 27-05.-2005, 05:59 AM   #102
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by acoggan
Actually, there are, mostly for untrained subjects, but also at least one study of trained cyclists as well. The most salient points would seem to be: 1) asymmetries of up to 10% are very common, but 2) which leg is dominant can vary depending on the power output, the cadence, and even from day to day. The latter in particular would seem to make it a difficult issue to address from a performance/training priorities perspective.

Cool. That's good to know. One less feature of the available crop of PMs to use as a discriminator. I'll happily assume I'm within the 10% asymmetrical bunch and go about trying to figure out how to push harder for longer and not pass out. Thanks.
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Old 27-05.-2005, 07:11 AM   #103
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by gholl
The notion that smooth pedaling is not a feature in elite cycling flies in the face of observation-however, scientific fact in this area is scant.


Bzzzzt. Thank you for playing, please try again next thread.

Read please: http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coyle91.pdf now show any evidence, even a little that elites pedal smoothly.

Mr. Armstrong was in that study....he doesn't pedal smoothly (and I'm sure niether did Jaque).

P.s. I too have a second hand PT that has been working perfectly since I got it at the start of last season.
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Old 27-05.-2005, 05:14 PM   #104
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerco
Bzzzzt. Thank you for playing, please try again next thread.

Read please: http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coyle91.pdf now show any evidence, even a little that elites pedal smoothly.

Mr. Armstrong was in that study....he doesn't pedal smoothly (and I'm sure niether did Jaque).

P.s. I too have a second hand PT that has been working perfectly since I got it at the start of last season.






In serious TT pedalling anyone who uses vertical pedal pressure cannot pedal smoothly because of their peak application around 3 o'c and their minimum application in the 11 to 1 o'c area. Smooth high geared pedalling can only be done by the complete elimination of that dead spot area by replacing it with equal max power application and for this to happen you must pedal in such a way that the arms can take a more active part in generating the power while seated. For the arms to be used, power must be applied to the pedals at all times parallel to the arm resistance line and it is only by this method that you will get continuous max power application to the chainwheel.
It is clear from his video that Anquetil used this identical technique and so I am 100% confident he had a smooth pedalling technique.
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Old 27-05.-2005, 07:06 PM   #105
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Default Re: Power Meters and Pedaling Effectiveness
I thought long and hard about whether to respond to Gholl's post, both last night and this morning. My immediate reaction was to say nothing, and not dignify his bullying and insulting behaviour with a reaction.
However on reflection I think it's best to clear up a couple of the things he's accused me of.
I have *never* made money from posting on a forum. Having paid good money myself and worked hard to pass my coaching exams I feel I have every right to do so were someone to ask me. The idea that the ABCC is somehow a lesser organisation because they are not affiliated to the BCF is extremely odd. I have never claimed to be a BCF coach, and I don't particularly want to be one. Some of the best coaches in the UK are members of the ABCC and for good reason.
I am proud of the University I attend; for instance, those who are familiar with the scientific literature regarding cycling will be well aware of Dr. Gary Palmer's work there. I am also proud that, at 36, I had the courage to apply, and I love being there.
We all have alterior motives for participating in this forum. I enjoy taking part because I feel I have a useful contrbution to make; as I said before if someone feels that they would like to pay me to help them enjoy their cycling more then I can see no harm in that. Another reason I participate in this (and other) forum(s) is to learn as much as possible about a subject I love. I do not, nor have I ever, sold power meters except for a second-hand Polar last year. The idea that I am somehow concealing my motives by including my web address in my signature is baffling.

Thanks for listening, see you round on the forum!

Lindsay.
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