Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

30-05.-2005, 08:12 AM	#1
Banesto2007 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 10	Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton Why did Zabriskie pull the same crap he did at the end of last year when he finished 150th every day for the first 12 days of the Vuelta and then attacked FIVE KILOMETERS into stage 14 or whatever it was. The peleton crashed and the sprinters teams couldnt real him in before the end. Im sure that Zabriskie completely spent all of his domestique energy on the last 20k of that stage. Pettachi, who wanted to win that stage, basically acknoweledged in the least possible manner by saying "Zabriskie certainly rode well , BUT...". If everyone raced in that fashion, there would be no team concept. Most guys in the bottom 50 of the GC could win stages but they are there to work for their teamleaders. Maybe FLoyd Landis would have held the Overall Leaders Jersey in the Vuelta last year if he had the help of coheisive teammates. For all of the people who are scratching their heads as to why US Postal Service non-tendered (no contract offer) Zabriskie , it was exactly for this reason. Bjarn Riis doesnt care about this stuff though because he just wants Anglos and English speakers on his team. Plus he wants any publicity he can get. Its this same attitude that had half of the sport suspecting that he DOPED to enable himself to deny the great, Miguel Indurain, his 6 TDF in succession. That basically ended Migs career permaturely. Back to the point. Zabriskie was supposed to be working for Basso , and he did well for him in the mountains and in the first week, but he could have been responsible for Basso not having the morale to recover on the bad days. First of all 3 days into the race , Riis had to take corrective measures to get David to protect Ivan. Then a few days later Zabriskie went 120% on the first ITT and ended up finishing 1) Zabriskie 2)Basso. Basso should have won 3 stages in the 2005 Giro D' Italia if it werent for his traitor leuitenant. This just shows how the UCI system is so flawed because the Pro Tour only rewards this type of selfishness with 3 Points in a 3 Week Tour. Unless someone is a pure sprinter going for Points Jersey they should be working for the GC either for themselves or for their teamleader. Also Zabriskie blowing off an interview with Phil Liggett and not even wearing his Stars and Stripes Jersey as National Time Trial Champion is a disgrace. Americans are outsiders in Europe and we should approach the sport with the Big Picure in mind and not how we can squeeze out maximum exposure for ourselves. Also its sad that a mediocre sprinter such as Issac Galvez can accure more UCI points for sitting on till the last 10k of the sprint stages, finishing 6th in those stages, compared with someone who can finish in the 1st group , climb and TT their way to a top 15 in the final GC. Im sure Zabriskie got more points than someone like Cauchiolli and that is just wrong.

31-05.-2005, 12:19 AM	#2
mattv2099 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 162	Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton your whining is making you a disgrace... WHO CARES.

31-05.-2005, 01:40 AM

Dimos

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banesto2007

Bjarn Riis doesnt care about this stuff though because he just wants Anglos and English speakers on his team. Plus he wants any publicity he can get. Its this same attitude that had half of the sport suspecting that he DOPED to enable himself to deny the great, Miguel Indurain, his 6 TDF in succession. That basically ended Migs career permaturely.
Back to the point. Zabriskie was supposed to be working for Basso , and he did well for him in the mountains and in the first week, but he could have been responsible for Basso not having the morale to recover on the bad days. First of all 3 days into the race , Riis had to take corrective measures to get David to protect Ivan. Then a few days later Zabriskie went 120% on the first ITT and ended up finishing 1) Zabriskie 2)Basso. Basso should have won 3 stages in the 2005 Giro D' Italia if it werent for his traitor leuitenant. This just shows how the UCI system is so flawed because the Pro Tour only rewards this type of selfishness with 3 Points in a 3 Week Tour. Unless someone is a pure sprinter going for Points Jersey they should be working for the GC either for themselves or for their teamleader. Also Zabriskie blowing off an interview with Phil Liggett and not even wearing his Stars and Stripes Jersey as National Time Trial Champion is a disgrace. Americans are outsiders in Europe and we should approach the sport with the Big Picure in mind and not how we can squeeze out maximum exposure for ourselves.

Also its sad that a mediocre sprinter such as Issac Galvez can accure more UCI points for sitting on till the last 10k of the sprint stages, finishing 6th in those stages, compared with someone who can finish in the 1st group , climb and TT their way to a top 15 in the final GC. Im sure Zabriskie got more points than someone like Cauchiolli and that is just wrong.

I don' t know about Zabriskie, but your claim that Riis doesn't care about team spirit it' s out of reality. Check out interviews of the riders to see for yourself.
Your claim about suspicions that Riis or the y rider was doped in that or that race is foul. If we begin saying who was and who was not based on suspicions then we talk about nothing.
As for the Giro maybe I watched a different race but I didn't have the impression that Basso was left on his own in any stage. And as for the result of Zabriskie in the Time trials did it crossed your mind that he was benchmarking the course for Basso that was to follow?
Finally, if you're finishing 6th you just don't earn any UCI points. Only the first 3 earns UCI points. Do you think that only 3 riders must compete in evety sprint, or maybe these mediocre sprinters must find another job elsewhere?
PS Caucchioli as 8th he earned 35 points in the UCI ProTour. Zabriskie only 4 (3+1)

31-05.-2005, 07:25 PM

Banesto2007

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimos

I stated that Zabriskie only got 3 points for winning the stage. Go read it again. What im not sure about is whether UCI points are still awarded, not PRO TOUR, which obviously are. Thats part of the flaws I believe , is that the two systems overlap. The only thing that changed is that the World Cup is scraped (Thank you!!) , and there is basic point system outlined for the PRO TOUR races. I believe the old system is still in place, where points are awared inproportionately. The PRO TOUR needs to impliment a scale for Points and KOM, and other sub classifications. Zabriskie finishing 1st and 2nd in the two ITT might be worth more than 10th in GC under UCI DIV 1 World Rankings. What I meant with the sprinter finishing 6th every day is that he shouldnt be rewarded for that while Directors (DS) say they can care less which rider finishes 6th in GC. Thats what Fassa/Italian National Director said. He'll think again about that under the new system. At least my statement proves that the old system sucks. Also Zabriskie should not be anihilating targeted stages like he has been doing. He was NOT setting a benchmark for Basso, thats retarded. Basso can use any riders time as check. Thats the benefit of going last. To further this, it also may have hurt Basso because Zabriskies time surely perplexed Basso on both days. Basso lost like 30 seconds on Stg3 I believe and that when Zabriskie was quoted as saying his mission was corrected and/or reinforced by Riis. Everyone knows Riis explodes on the radio and he had to be pissed when guys like Zabriskie lost contact with Basso. ...so therefore, I dont know what Giro you watched either.

31-05.-2005, 07:39 PM

Banesto2007

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattv2099

your whining is making you a disgrace...

WHO CARES.

That was very informative. The people who are involved in the sport are who care. Go prepare for your 25 minute Cat IV crit . Its not whinnig, youre a waste of space. Dont comment on things for the sake of it. Youre probably just upset that someone is criticizing the almighty selfish American, as you obviously read the post for a reason.

31-05.-2005, 08:59 PM	#6
musette Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,405	Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton "Then a few days later Zabriskie went 120% on the first ITT and ended up finishing 1) Zabriskie 2)Basso." I disagree with that statement. Zabriskie was asked about Ris to go all out so that he could provide split times for Basso. It didn't adversely affect Basso's GC standing because there are no time bonuses, as everybody knows, for finising first, second or third in a time trial.

01-06.-2005, 05:28 AM

Dimos

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banesto2007

For starters I didn't comment on you with anything insulting such as "retarded". OK?
Then, go and read the new rules. ProTour teams' riders get only ProTour points for ProTour events plus National Championships. So forget about the old system.
Greetings!

01-06.-2005, 05:58 AM

DiabloScott

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banesto2007

Pro Tour riders earn Pro Tour points only (no "UCI points"), and are ranked only against other Pro Tour riders. They earn no points for non ProTour races. There is no overlap.

Continental Team riders earn UCI points in a system similar to the old UCI points ranking system, but cannot earn Pro Tour points. I'm pretty sure they earn UCI points for placing in ProTour events but either way, there is no overlap - they are ranked only against others in their Continental division.

The old UCI points ranking system drew a lot of heat precisely because it was a ranking system - every rider was ranked in the list of all pro's. The ProTour is supposed to be more of a competition where riders and teams are "scored" rather than "ranked"; in this regard it is completely acceptable to ignore minor classifications like Intergiro and Points competitions in the scoring. It replaces the World Cup but it also eliminates rider ranking.

The intent of the ProTour was to increase the relative importance of races other than the Tour de France, and create a "major league" of teams that would be present in all the biggest races so that sponsors would feel comfortable that they would be represented and get some value for their money. It has definitely been a success in that area - there was a real danger that a lot of big name sponsors would have pulled out without this.

The Fassa team boss has been very vocal about his dislike of the system - nothing new there.

I can't make any sense out of the rest of your post.

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05-06.-2005, 05:29 AM

Banesto2007

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Quote:

Originally Posted by musette

"Then a few days later Zabriskie went 120% on the first ITT and ended up finishing 1) Zabriskie 2)Basso."

I disagree with that statement. Zabriskie was asked about Ris to go all out so that he could provide split times for Basso. It didn't adversely affect Basso's GC standing because there are no time bonuses, as everybody knows, for finising first, second or third in a time trial.

Show me the quote, and source, where RIIS told Zabriskie to go try to win the first ITT. I doubt it exists.
My main point is that Zabriskie didnt do his job until Riis bitched him out on stg3 when Basso lost :30. Then 4 days later he suddenly had the energy to finish 4 minutes ahead of all of the people he set off with. If his job wasnt to help Basso win the Giro, then I would have no problem. Its more than ironic that his job last year was to work for Landis w/his Golden Jersey in the Vuelta and the same thing happened. Id never ever ride on a team with Zabriskie but Basso is too naive to notice. Hes the perfect GC rider for Riis, but he wont ever win the tour. Hes like a Luc Leblanc or something.

05-06.-2005, 09:22 PM

#10

musette

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banesto2007

Your "main point" (and most of your secondary points, by the way, in this thread) are invalid

; accept that. Here is my quote -- you should know better than to question me when I say something appears somewhere. You are only asking me to show even more how wrong your "main point" is.

Here is the proof, from a leading Cyclingnews writer:

"US National TT champ Zabriskie showed his tremendous talent as a tester today and followed CSC's Bjarne Riis' plan. Riis had Dave Z ride all-out to put pressure on the other riders and give his team leader Ivan Basso fast time splits to ride against."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/200...results/giro058

In the same article, we have further proof in the form of a direct quote from ZABRISKE that Riis allowed him to ride as fast as he could, in part because he could provide splits for Basso:

"Cyclingnews spoke to Zabriskie and asked him his objective in today's time trial stage and he explained, "I wanted to go really fast and win...plus I could give Ivan (Basso) my split times. (Bjarne Riis and CSC d.s. Alain Gallopin) told me to go for it, so I did."

Riis said that Zabriskie should provide the splits, and to ride as fast as he could.

In other words, your "main point" is 100% false.

05-06.-2005, 11:18 PM	#11
Dead Star Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: South Wales Posts: 794	Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton There's more sources than just Velonews or cyclingnews

06-06.-2005, 05:17 AM

#12

MJtje

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Don't no what youre talking about..........what I'm more interested in why did zabriskie had to leave usps/discovery!?! He has an HUGE enige, can TT with the best (giro) etc. Was it a clash of personalities between lance and zabriskie or something else. Anyone know??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banesto2007

06-06.-2005, 05:44 AM

#13

musette

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead Star

There's more sources than just Velonews or cyclingnews

Sure. I didn't say that was the only source. But it's a pretty good source with which to break the argument made by another poster.

As for why Zabriske left USPS, I do not know, but I would imagine that Zabriske's perceived limited climbing skills had something to do with it. While Zabriske did well in some mountain stages at this Giro, he had not been particularly impressive in the mountains and DC already had some flats domestiques (Hincapie, Padrnos, Eki, Joachim, Barry). Because DC focuses more on the GC win in stage races and less on individual stage wins that do not yield increased GC hopes, I would think that Zabriske's strength in time trialing was only perceived as useful to the extent that it would help TTT efforts (and not principally for the ITT win possibilities). Note Zabriske's Vuelta stage win when he was on the breakaway last year.

Also, I can imagine that Zabriske knew that at DC, he would never have a meaningful chance to ride on the Tour team because his climbing was not strong enough. He might see his prospects for making the Tour team at CSC to be better because CSC needs more strength on the TTT than DC (which already had a very strong team). But, apart from Eki and Padrnos, DC prefers Tour domestiques who can climb.

06-06.-2005, 06:28 AM	#14
musette Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,405	Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton Here's some insight into how Zabriskie got to CSC. It doesn't provide verifiable information on why DC didn't resign Zabriskie, though. "Last fall, Team CSC boss Bjarne Riis approached the Olympic bronze medalist about American riders he was considering to sign to bolster the U.S. presence on the squad. After all, team sponsor CSC is a U.S.-based computer software giant and Julich was the lone American rider on the 2004 roster. Here's how Julich tells the story: "The first thing was total disbelief was that Postal Service wouldn't sign David Zabriskie. I was blown away and I had to ask (Riis), are you sure that he's available? Absolutely, 100 percent, this is the guy you want because by far he is the top American talent under the age of 25. I saw him race, he's a great time trialist, great worker. He is one of the future stars of American cycling." One thing that's interesting is that it was not only CSC, but also DC, that was looking for American cycling talent. DC opted for Tom Danielson, who I think is a better fit for DC because Danielson can both ITT (although not as well as Zabriskie, but sitll fairly well) and, more crucially for DC, climb, meaning he can be a GC contender (as he showed in Georgia this year) or he can be a mountain domestique (which DC needed more of, as the TdF climbers could not be used as Giro domestiques). So, I think one key part of why Zabriskie was not rehired is that DC was looking for more mountain domestiques to help Savoldelli in the Giro. The second American signing by DC is also interesting -- Jason McCarthy. I think he was also perceived by Bruyneel as having better climbing skills (as seen in his performance in Georgia in 2004, which is a key factor to McCarthy's hiring) than Zabriskie. Note that McCarthy does not have bad ITT skills, as shown by his qualification to be on the US Olympics squad. So, Bruyneel needed more climbers, even though DC alreay had a lot of great climbers (Ace, Chechu, Beltran) and fairly good climbers (Noval), because the TdF climbers are saved and therefore cannot be used for the Giro. This shows that DC is focused on the GC win still (or high GC placement) and is not too interested in ITT wins by parties other than their GC contender in a given race. They maintain an "all other team members ride for the team leader" in Grand Tours and the release of Zabriskie is consistent with that. Zabriskie was allowed to try for a stage win because there was no strong GC contender for USPS in the Vuelta last year. For a Grand Tour squad with a real GC contender, an individual who is not the team leader going "all out" to try and win an ITT or an individual trying for a long breakway is seen as, in some respects, possibly wasted energy with respect to the team's achievement of a GC high placement.

06-06.-2005, 08:50 AM

#15

Banesto2007

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Re: Zabriskie is a disgrace to Americans in the international peleton

Quote:

Originally Posted by musette

Your "main point" (and most of your secondary points, by the way, in this thread) are invalid

Youre smug and gay with all of your little smiley faces. You dont understand on-the-road tactics and I shouldnt have place any importance on quoted sources. An Anglo correspondant for an Anglo publication/site, regarding an Anglo rider on an Anglo team. Enough said. Its a Latin sport with Latin ethics. Yall are outsiders. This isnt gay ass, ball busting Paris Roubaix where everyone rides for themselves, destroying their nuts over cobbles. Ok , first of all CSC is overrated. Riis isnt a great strategist, he just had a flukish plan to change tempos on Indurain in the mountains to win in 1996. He took his earnings and secured a sponsor. If Basso's objective was to do well at the Giro, how does Zabriskie expending his reserves on a selfish ITT effort benefit him. Ill repeat again the fact that Riis bitched them all out for losing contact with Basso when he lost :30 on stage 3 and it wasnt even mountainous. Its easy to win an ITT when everyone else is much more tired because they have a job to do on all the other stages. You quoted Zabriskie ..."I WANTED TO WIN TODAY" and from your propaganda filled sources thats all that can be verified. IF Riis wanted him to try and win , thats a horrible tactic because Basso doesnt need the 150th riders' time splits.... (Dave) , when he himself is 6th from last to go. Zabriskie should have conserved for the race itself. Now, Danielson and Zabriskie both are EXTREMELY limited as cyclists. Neither have any muscle mass and the only reason Danielson has shown potential is because hes lived for years at altitude in Durango, CO. and raced against Crit. oriented riders who are only good at riding for an hour or two . He cant go longer than 7-8 days , hes just flat out not an athlete. Zabriskie is 5'11 150 , hell never do well in the tour because he cannot climb with that undersized frame. I wouldnt even consider him to be a good TTT specialist because at his waifish size he doesnt provide much of a draft unless hes got a small guy behind him, for Basso hes comporable but they wont be a good TTT team even with Voigt, Julich. Basso is not even a great athlete even without mentioning the fact that he has no intensity. Fassa Non-Tendered him because he was overrated. Basically the amateurish Riis has been signing everyone elses garbage. Hamilton,Julich,Basso,Voigt Jaksche,Sastre. Theyve dominated Paris-Nice, Tour Med, Crit Int., and Romandie but that is their niche. Bassos podium was a fluke because Jan caught a virus from his kid, and because everyone dropped out. Ullrich, Vino, Lance, Ekimov, Popo, Azevedo, Rubiera, Savoldelli, Cioni, Flecha, Pettachi, Pozzato, Velo, Brusegin , Cancellara , Kirchen , Frigo. Even Sevilla knows what his role is. All of those guys are real riders so that is why Zabriskie, Julich,Hamilton,Landis,Danielson and Basso were all disposed of by those teams. Botero will do better than Landis in July for the Phonak squad. Americans are overrated because they only ride for themselves. They all should go to CSC. Then they can go win all the races in March when its snowing out. Their victories in Romandie were with a blood doping Hamilton.

OH yeah, Tour of Georgia is a gay EXHIBITION race for Americans. Its not even a real race. Why do you think CSC always tries to do well there with Voigt last year and Julich, and Vandborg this year. There werent even time bonuses going into the last day when Danielson only had a 0:04 second lead against Lance,Landis,Julich,Levi, who could all care less about the race. Lance won last year without even trying. Tour of California is going to be a joke too. The only races that matter are
THE TOURS OF FRANCE, SPAIN, ITALY, PARIS-NICE, DAUPHINE-L, LIEGE-B-L, CATALUNYA, PAIS VASCO, VALENCIA, MURCIA, SAN SEBASTIAN, WORLDS, LOMBARDY(unless you dont like racing in October).

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LIEGE-B-L (which might as well be French), THE SPORT IS IN FRANCE, ITALY, AND SPAIN.

3 Days of De Panne, 4 Days of Dunkirk, Flanders, Roubaix, Fleche Wallone, Amstel, KBK, Camembert, all those others are not meaningful. The races in Switzerland are not great thats why Jan screws up by racing there and Tour of Germany and Italian Criteriums instead of DAUHPINE. At least he did CATALUNYA but he should have tried to win it. CSC is going to implode in Du Tour not DE Tour.

Last edited by Banesto2007 : 06-06.-2005 at 09:37 AM.

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