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Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

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Old 14-07.-2005, 08:04 AM   #121
musette
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
DC worked very hard at the front tpday to limit the time gap to Vino....
That stage today was tougher far tougher than yesterday.
Every rider suffered out there today.


Each DC rider probably did almost what they would have done, were there any group of people on a breakaway. Do you think they would not have chased the same way if Botero were with somebody else, or if some other reasonably competent group of climbers were to have gone on a breakaway (as they no doubt would have, given the glories of a potential stage win for some teams)?

Also, one must not forget that the typical DC strategy on a stage like this is to go at a reasonably fast pace, to dissuade attacks from people riding with the LA group.

As LA noted, Vino was no longer in a special group of cyclists that DC would have to especially watch over (at least not for now), in the context of breakaways. From thepaceline:

"Did the team let Vino go today? - "He definitely wasn't our concern today. Our main concern today was to keep the team together…he's was at six and a half minutes and we can't chase down everybody that's at five, six, seven minutes. We have to prioritize and he was not on our list of priorities so we let him out there and kept the team together, controlled the tempo, controlled the pace and if the objective was to win the stage, then mission accomplished. If the objective was to blow up the Discovery team, then mission not accomplished."
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Old 14-07.-2005, 08:08 AM   #122
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Originally Posted by limerickman
Did you actually see today's stage, live ?
Probably not.

DC worked very hard at the front tpday to limit the time gap to Vino.
I watched it live today.
That stage today was tougher far tougher than yesterday.

Don't only take my word for it here's what Eric Breukink had to say about it
"Today's stage is the tougher test tahn yesterday (10) : Rasmussen is climbing well but today will be tougher no doubt"
Sean kelly "today is a tougher parcour and two hor category climbs and one cat 1 climb make it more difficult for DC to control as well as for LA's challenge to attack, than yesterday's stage.
Given that it's not a mountain top finish, DC will have to work harder to control this stage".


Every rider suffered out there today.




Speaking of suffering, and since most can't agree on anything else,anyone want to bet on how many riders will drop in Stage 14 and 15.
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Old 14-07.-2005, 08:39 AM   #123
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Originally Posted by musette
Each DC rider probably did almost what they would have done, were there any group of people on a breakaway. Do you think they would not have chased the same way if Botero were with somebody else, or if some other reasonably competent group of climbers were to have gone on a breakaway (as they no doubt would have, given the glories of a potential stage win for some teams)?

Also, one must not forget that the typical DC strategy on a stage like this is to go at a reasonably fast pace, to dissuade attacks from people riding with the LA group.

As LA noted, Vino was no longer in a special group of cyclists that DC would have to especially watch over (at least not for now), in the context of breakaways. From thepaceline:

"Did the team let Vino go today? - "He definitely wasn't our concern today. Our main concern today was to keep the team together…he's was at six and a half minutes and we can't chase down everybody that's at five, six, seven minutes. We have to prioritize and he was not on our list of priorities so we let him out there and kept the team together, controlled the tempo, controlled the pace and if the objective was to win the stage, then mission accomplished. If the objective was to blow up the Discovery team, then mission not accomplished."


Well for guys who were riding at the front, as a matter of course as some would like to call it, DC burst their nuts trying to recoup time on Vino and Botero today.
They pursued Vino and Botero : if you watched the stage you'd have seen it.

I go back to what kelly and Breukink said.

I just caught the highlights on ES and they follow certain teams behind the scene at each stage.
One team they are with is Phonak.
In the Phonak team bus, Botero and Landis are taking off their jerseys and shorts, after the end of the stage.

"How did it go with you" Botero to Landis
"I just stayed with the DC - they were pedalling to try to gain on you and Vino".
"Did you and Vino work together ?"
"Yeah we descended pretty quickly - very quickly in fact : I tried to stay with Vino for the sprint but ah...."
Landis laughing "Yeah, you want to see DC they were pedalling as hard as they could to try to catch you guys".
"You did a great ride today, Santi - made a lot of people nervous too".
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Old 14-07.-2005, 08:47 AM   #124
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Originally Posted by jhuskey
Speaking of suffering, and since most can't agree on anything else,anyone want to bet on how many riders will drop in Stage 14 and 15.

Vino has to be cooked. But Ullrich is still sitting there waiting. It could come down to an attack from the Kaiser yet..... With Kloden there, possibly Vino. Maybe Popo is cooked.... I think Armstrong is as fresh as Ullrich so an attack will have come in a two prong attack. The Tour is not over. But in order to have a Kaiser led attack successfull , Discovery will have to be wore down before the next mountains and leave Armstrong isolated...... And only a an attack from Basso will do that. And Basso is missing two good helpers.
And if Basso attacks , the pressure is on Discovery, but it also puts pressure on T-Mobile. They have him to worry about Basso too..... And if Basso & Armstrong think it's in their best interest to neutralize T-Mobile , thinking 1 - 2 podium spots...... It would be great to be in their team meeting this evening ....

Of course, none of these possibilities are possible if Discovery is as strong as they seem to be.
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Old 14-07.-2005, 08:59 AM   #125
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Originally Posted by wolfix
Vino has to be cooked. But Ullrich is still sitting there waiting. It could come down to an attack from the Kaiser yet..... With Kloden there, possibly Vino. Maybe Popo is cooked.... I think Armstrong is as fresh as Ullrich so an attack will have come in a two prong attack. The Tour is not over. But in order to have a Kaiser led attack successfull , Discovery will have to be wore down before the next mountains and leave Armstrong isolated...... And only a an attack from Basso will do that. And Basso is missing two good helpers.
And if Basso attacks , the pressure is on Discovery, but it also puts pressure on T-Mobile. They have him to worry about Basso too..... And if Basso & Armstrong think it's in their best interest to neutralize T-Mobile , thinking 1 - 2 podium spots...... It would be great to be in their team meeting this evening ....

Of course, none of these possibilities are possible if Discovery is as strong as they seem to be.


LA, JU, Basso, Valverde, Landis, Rasmussen, Moreau ; they looked pretty fresh at the end.
Even with 5kms to go at the summit of the Galibier, I was watching to see if there was any strain on their faces but they looked like they were cool
(it just blows my mind to see this because if I was there, going at my own mediocre pace on the Galibier, I'd look like the bloke in my avatar - on a good day that is).
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Old 14-07.-2005, 08:59 AM   #126
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfix
Vino has to be cooked. But Ullrich is still sitting there waiting. It could come down to an attack from the Kaiser yet..... With Kloden there, possibly Vino. Maybe Popo is cooked.... I think Armstrong is as fresh as Ullrich so an attack will have come in a two prong attack. The Tour is not over. But in order to have a Kaiser led attack successfull , Discovery will have to be wore down before the next mountains and leave Armstrong isolated...... And only a an attack from Basso will do that. And Basso is missing two good helpers.
And if Basso attacks , the pressure is on Discovery, but it also puts pressure on T-Mobile. They have him to worry about Basso too..... And if Basso & Armstrong think it's in their best interest to neutralize T-Mobile , thinking 1 - 2 podium spots...... It would be great to be in their team meeting this evening ....

Of course, none of these possibilities are possible if Discovery is as strong as they seem to be.


They do seem invincible but say someone like Rasmussen, who is undoubtedly an incredible climber, teams with Basso. Somebody is going to have to hurt to keep the pace.
There are more possibilities than answers. I just don't want to perceive the end of the race yet.
A few more real a** busting stages to go.
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Old 14-07.-2005, 09:09 AM   #127
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Former GC contenders (er, pretenders) are falling like flies even from leadership of their own teams.

Heras is no longer the leader of Liberty-Seguros, after his not-so-great showing. I feel bad for him (no really) He's probably going to drop out in the next little while, so he can prepare for the Vuelta. Second year in a row, for not finishing the Tour.

"JÖRG JAKSCHE GOES OUT OF ALPS AS LIBERTY SEGUROS-WÜRTH'S LEADER.

The Tour de France goes out of both stages of Alps with a general classification in which many important names have disappeared [my comment: including Heras], and unexpected others have managed to occupy their places. Liberty Seguros-Würth has suffered a hard blow in the first contact with high mountain, which has ended the hopes of Roberto Heras and Joseba Beloki, but on the other hand it has met again with a great Jörg Jaksche, ... Jaksche goes out of the Alps as team's leader after ending today in the favourites' group and to feel very comfortably in the the Madeleine climb and also in the Galibier. Waiting for Pyrenees, which will be his final examination, Jörg is thirteenth, 5:33 to Armstrong, and is in conditions to come to Paris between ten first ones. At the moment, he does not want to think about it, but today he was " very satisfied because I have had very good sensations throughout the whole day. I have felt well and I wait to be still like that in what stays of Tour ".
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Old 14-07.-2005, 09:21 AM   #128
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Originally Posted by jhuskey
They do seem invincible but say someone like Rasmussen, who is undoubtedly an incredible climber, teams with Basso. Somebody is going to have to hurt to keep the pace.
There are more possibilities than answers. I just don't want to perceive the end of the race yet.
A few more real a** busting stages to go.


I don't think it's over by a longshot, to be honest.

Stage 12 is going to be tough going.
After a tough stage 11, stage 12 will feel very hard on already tired bodies.

Stages 14 and 15 and 16 (Marie Blanc, Solour, Aubisque) are pure climbing stages in the Pyrennees.
The only relief is that there is a rest day in there too.

Stage 17 (the longest of the TDF) has several cat 3 and cat 4 climbs.
By this stage they'll feel like cat 1 and cat 2.
Stage 18 is going to be tricky too : the last 50kms is climbing up a series of cat 2 climbs.

It is all to play for.
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Old 14-07.-2005, 09:39 AM   #129
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Originally Posted by limerickman
Well for guys who were riding at the front, as a matter of course as some would like to call it, DC burst their nuts trying to recoup time on Vino and Botero today.
They pursued Vino and Botero : if you watched the stage you'd have seen it.

I go back to what kelly and Breukink said.

I just caught the highlights on ES and they follow certain teams behind the scene at each stage.
One team they are with is Phonak.
In the Phonak team bus, Botero and Landis are taking off their jerseys and shorts, after the end of the stage.

"How did it go with you" Botero to Landis
"I just stayed with the DC - they were pedalling to try to gain on you and Vino".
"Did you and Vino work together ?"
"Yeah we descended pretty quickly - very quickly in fact : I tried to stay with Vino for the sprint but ah...."
Landis laughing "Yeah, you want to see DC they were pedalling as hard as they could to try to catch you guys".
"You did a great ride today, Santi - made a lot of people nervous too".
Lim I watched the stage and you can keep saying over and over that DC had to burst their nuts but so did Vino and Botero. Vino and Botero had to work just has hard to gain the time that DC was trying to recoup. Its that simple. The advantage that Tmobile gained is that only Vino was working for Tmobile and all of DC was working for DC.
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Old 14-07.-2005, 09:45 AM   #130
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Lim I watched the stage and you can keep saying over and over that DC had to burst their nuts but so did Vino and Botero. Vino and Botero had to work just has hard to gain the time that DC was trying to recoup. Its that simple.


Vino escaped with Botero : so they (Vino & Botero) did work hard.
But one of our esteemed posters here keeps making the point that DC were riding todays stage as a matter of course and that Vino and Botero weren't a priority.
Seemed to me that they were very much a priority to DC.

And what Landis said to Botero after the stage confirmed that DC were chasing hard after them.
(and Landis should know after all he did the same job last year too).
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Old 14-07.-2005, 09:51 AM   #131
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Originally Posted by limerickman
Vino escaped with Botero : so they (Vino & Botero) did work hard.
But one of our esteemed posters here keeps making the point that DC were riding todays stage as a matter of course and that Vino and Botero weren't a priority.
Seemed to me that they were very much a priority to DC.

And what Landis said to Botero after the stage confirmed that DC were chasing hard after them.
(and Landis should know after all he did the same job last year too).

Of course they were a priority but how high of a priority? Only Johan, LA and Discovery know that answer. Tomorrow should be an interesting stage. I think the stage fits T-mobile better as far as attacking but with a tired Vino will they be able to put on the performance they did a few days ago. We will see how well DC recovers and how well Vino recovers.
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Old 14-07.-2005, 09:57 AM   #132
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Of course they were a priority but how high of a priority? Only Johan, LA and Discovery know that answer. Tomorrow should be an interesting stage. I think the stage fits T-mobile better as far as attacking but with a tired Vino will they be able to put on the performance they did a few days ago. We will see how well DC recovers and how well Vino recovers.


I agree 100% : at this point in the race it is all about who can recover and can attack (or contain an attack).

I am still blown away at how those guys climbed today.
Each and everyone of them.

They passed the finish line and there were dozens of riders like Boonen and Co only going over the summit (that's no reflection on Boonen btw).
I can only dream of cycling like those guys.
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Old 14-07.-2005, 10:04 AM   #133
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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I agree 100% : at this point in the race it is all about who can recover and can attack (or contain an attack).

I am still blown away at how those guys climbed today.
Each and everyone of them.

They passed the finish line and there were dozens of riders like Boonen and Co only going over the summit (that's no reflection on Boonen btw).
I can only dream of cycling like those guys.



Me too! In a reincarnated dream that is. The only thing I have passed lately is my prime.
I have some hills here, actually that's all I have. I sometimes check my speed on comparitive grades on a climb to what these guys are climbing. Not as long granted ,but just as steep.
Pathetic is what the computer reads.
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Old 14-07.-2005, 10:14 AM   #134
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Default Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler
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Me too! In a reincarnated dream that is. The only thing I have passed lately is my prime.
I have some hills here, actually that's all I have. I sometimes check my speed on comparitive grades on a climb to what these guys are climbing. Not as long granted ,but just as steep.
Pathetic is what the computer reads.


I can't conceive of going at the speed that those guys go at, uphill.

I don't know about the shots you guys see over there of the TDF but the ones they were showing today in this part of the world were steep (and in reality TV doesn't convey the gradient and steepness).
And the Giro climbs are tougher !
if you saw Basso in the Giro climbing, it's no surprise that he looked comfortable today.

I wouldn't even try to calculate how much slower I would be : I'd be eliminated from every stage, no question.
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Old 14-07.-2005, 11:52 AM   #135
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The real opportunity was yesterday. Ullrich, Basso, Vino missed out. Today was a relatively uneventful day from DC perspective. They had 5 guys on the front at the downhill, and even though neither Vino nor Botero were much of a threat, they pulled 2 minutes on them during descent. There was no strategical reason to do it, but they did just to flex their muscle.

The fact that nobody (well, except for KOM contenders Ras and Mor) tried to "jump" DC guys speaks volumes about their power. Hincapie was ahead of Mayo and Heras, for gods sake!

Tomorrow is a much more "even" day - a few climbs, but nothing too special. I predict a long breakaway by a "nobody" who is 30 minutes behind. Disco will let them go and control the pace yet again. The rumors of their death have been greatly exaggerrated. Then it's a flat stage. Then on Saturday and Sunday there's some work for them to do, but there's plenty of time to recover from yesterday's effort. Having 5 guys at the end means they took it real easy today. If you sit in the back for the first 3 hours while Padrnos, Chechu and Beltran are working, and then you have to pull 20%-25% of the time for a 20-minute climb followed by a 40-minute downhill cruise? Piece of cake. Anyone who thinks that Disco were killing themselves just to make sure that Vino stays 5 minutes behind LA instead of 4 minutes is living in parallel universe. At this point podium prospects (never mind "yellow jersey" prospects!) of Botero and Vino look very, very slim. I think both Botero and Vino will be the first to agree with this. Look at Valverde, Ras and Basso. Maybe Leipheimer and Mancebo. Those are contenders for 2nd and 3rd.
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