Page 2 - Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

13-07.-2005, 11:00 PM

#16

cheapie

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 850

Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

I am not sure that I entirely agree with gentlmn's view that LA will be viewed as
an all time great.
He certainly won't be viewed in the same way as Merckx, in a purely sporting context.
1993-1996, in palmares terms, blows any comparison with the likes of Merckx and Hinault, completely out of the water.

are you out of your freakin' mind? not viewed as one of the all-time greats? sometimes your anti-lance sentiments make you sound like you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

14-07.-2005, 12:59 AM

#17

Crankster

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Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 96

Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheapie

are you out of your freakin' mind? not viewed as one of the all-time greats? sometimes your anti-lance sentiments make you sound like you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Clearly some sort of bias (perhaps something to do with Armstrong being from USA or, much worse, from Texas?) obscures the ability of some cycling fans to see clearly. And sadly, that bias clearly shows and seriously undermines the credibility of other posts as well.

I think looking forward into the future, that with the ever-increasing competitiveness level of the playing field, it will be very difficult for anyone to capture even 3 or 4 TdFs in a row, never mind 5, or 6 or 7. If anyone captures even 6, even without doing anything at all, it could be argued that this rider is at least on even terms with Armstrong, and perhaps much better considering the increased level of the competition. I don't care which country he is from, this will be EXTREMELY impressive.

But I will not be surprised if the Armstrong record will not be broken in the next several decades.

Similarly, I am afraid to say that Pantani may very well be the last man to capture two grand Tours in the same year, and I doubt many riders will even try to go for two, never mind three. Level of competition requires detailed specialization for a specific event. Besides, Giro and Vuelta are just not as competitive as the TdF, and becoming more of a nationally contested tours - italians go for Giro, spaniards contest Vuelta, but everyone comes out to the TdF.

14-07.-2005, 01:09 AM

#18

Colorado Ryder

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 1,229

Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

1999-2005 TDF palmares blow away any comparisions to Merckx and Hinault.
Merckx will always be considered the greatest overall cyclist. Armstrong will be the greatest TDF cyclist.

14-07.-2005, 01:17 AM	#19
rejobako Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 648	Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why? Crankster: I agree that the sport of professional cycling seems to be leaning more toward specialization and event "cherry picking" by the riders who have some clout to dictate their schedules, but I also think it's fair criticism to suggest that a rider like Armstrong, who really does not attempt to compete in top form in any event except one, will always have a bit of an asterisk by his name in any discussion of the best ever. Grand Tours are but one cycling discipline: no doubt it is the most grueling, and the TdF is exponentially more prestigious than any other single cycling event in the world, but there are nonetheless dozens of other notable competitions in which Lance has never tested himself. And in those few pre-Tour events he does choose to ride, he never shows up attempting to be in top form, or contesting to win. If he wins, it's gravy. If not, it was just a glorified training ride. I scoff at those who suggest Armstrong isn't the greatest TdF rider ever, on the basis that others have more stage wins, or spent more time in yellow, or won multiple jerseys. The ultimate cycling achievement is a GC win in the TdF. Days in yellow, and individual stage wins, are significant achievements, but are in essence merely building blocks to the ultimate goal. If that goal is not achieved by a man who covets it, he may have competed gallantly, but he has failed. If a cyclist were to win the first 20 stages and spend each day in yellow, then lose the GC on the last day, the headline would read: "So and so loses", and all the success of the previous 3 weeks would be seen as the means for setting up a spectacular fall. Armstrong isn't the greatest cyclist ever, and I suspect that if he rode the schedule of Eddy Merckx as hard as Eddy did, Armstrong may not have a single TdF win to his name, because he'd be completely gassed by July. On the other hand, Eddy Merckx at his best would have a tough time competing with Lance Armstrong in this event, because IMO no one has ever been more proficient at preparing for a single event, focusing his talents, and using the team around him, as Lance Armstrong.

14-07.-2005, 02:16 AM

#22

Tonto

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Join Date: Nov 2003

Posts: 386

Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rejobako

Crankster: I agree that the sport of professional cycling seems to be leaning more toward specialization and event "cherry picking" by the riders who have some clout to dictate their schedules, but I also think it's fair criticism to suggest that a rider like Armstrong, who really does not attempt to compete in top form in any event except one, will always have a bit of an asterisk by his name in any discussion of the best ever.

Grand Tours are but one cycling discipline: no doubt it is the most grueling, and the TdF is exponentially more prestigious than any other single cycling event in the world, but there are nonetheless dozens of other notable competitions in which Lance has never tested himself. And in those few pre-Tour events he does choose to ride, he never shows up attempting to be in top form, or contesting to win. If he wins, it's gravy. If not, it was just a glorified training ride.

I scoff at those who suggest Armstrong isn't the greatest TdF rider ever, on the basis that others have more stage wins, or spent more time in yellow, or won multiple jerseys. The ultimate cycling achievement is a GC win in the TdF. Days in yellow, and individual stage wins, are significant achievements, but are in essence merely building blocks to the ultimate goal. If that goal is not achieved by a man who covets it, he may have competed gallantly, but he has failed. If a cyclist were to win the first 20 stages and spend each day in yellow, then lose the GC on the last day, the headline would read: "So and so loses", and all the success of the previous 3 weeks would be seen as the means for setting up a spectacular fall.

Armstrong isn't the greatest cyclist ever, and I suspect that if he rode the schedule of Eddy Merckx as hard as Eddy did, Armstrong may not have a single TdF win to his name, because he'd be completely gassed by July. On the other hand, Eddy Merckx at his best would have a tough time competing with Lance Armstrong in this event, because IMO no one has ever been more proficient at preparing for a single event, focusing his talents, and using the team around him, as Lance Armstrong.

Exactly what I wanted to say, but better put than I would have managed :-)

14-07.-2005, 02:19 AM

#23

rejobako

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Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 648

Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

Lance's actions speak for themself. He has become what he loathed in his own father.

Well, that and a 6-time TdF winner.

There are many couples with relationships that cannot withstand the pressure applied by the quest for fame and fortune sought by one of the parties. Armstrong may indeed be culpable in whatever led to the split between he and the mother of his children; I suspect he might regret that he has used so much of his time in his pursuit of cycling goals and his Foundation rather than his family. The only thing that is certain, however, is that a mewling, sanctimonious twit like you is the last person on earth qualified to judge him or anyone else who has made the decision to make difficult sacrifices in pursuit of excellence. (Respectfully speaking, of course.

) Sometimes, it seems to me, Armstrong's pursuit of his personal ambitions make him appear to be a very arrogant, unsympathetic character. I wonder, what's your excuse?

14-07.-2005, 02:21 AM

#24

rejobako

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Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 648

Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

I would suggest that your utter comtempt for the doping problem makes you the most hateful of sporting fans.

How can I have any contempt for the doping problem when I'm compelled to use it all on you? One reprehensible thing at a time . . .

14-07.-2005, 02:46 AM

#25

Crankster

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Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 96

Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rejobako

You are absolutely correct, but I believe the nature of the sport has changed so much, it's very difficult to expect top Tour condenders to also arrive in top form to contest other events - be it classics, or Grand/smaller Tours.

The tendency to focus on one event is a general one, not just something Lance choses to do. Basso attempted (unsuccessfully) to do Giro/TdF double. But other than that, not many podium contenders even try anymore. Heras and Mayo showed lack of form at this year's TdF, just like last year, and will probably peak for Vuelta. Cunego, DiLuca and Simoni didn't even start the Tour, and despite annual promises of Simoni to show LA who the real climber is, he was never impressive in TdF. Ullrich decided that he doesn't want (or can't?) for TdS win, Vino couldn't pull of Paris-Nice which is typically his territory.

Armstrong is not without some strong resume in classics and mini-Tours:
he won Fleche Wallone, World Champs, Tour of Luxemburg and Tour de Swisse, won Dauphine twice, was second at LBL and Amstel gold.

What classics did Basso, Ullrich, Beloki, Heras, Savoldelli, Simoni and others win?

Of all recent GC contenders, Vino may be the only one to have more impressive "non-Grand Tour" resume than Lance, but considering that he is considered by many a purely classics rider who recently turned to grand tours, and considering his relatively unimpressive GT record (one third in 2003 and seems like out of podium this year - hopefully not!), I am not sure there's much of a case to be made.

14-07.-2005, 02:52 AM

#27

cheapie

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 850

Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

I love how pointing out obvious and inescapable truths so offends you.

You have already established that you couldn't care less about drugged athlete.

Why do care about my posts?

Get back to solving the global energy problem and terror attacks.

Leave the doping problem to those who have a heart and some compassion.

Get busy now!

i'm hoping english isn't your native language because i'm having a hard time understanding wtf your points are.

14-07.-2005, 03:03 AM

#29

cheapie

Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 850

Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyer

cheap and inexpensive:

Understand this:

Dario Frigo was arrested today at the Team Hotel because police found illegal drugs in his wife's car.

He was in 52 on GC before the arrest and abandonment.

So they are STILL doping in the TDF. Surprise!

Jean Marie Leblanc regretted that Frigo is from a generation of riders who will not learn.

But this is untrue! In the 2001 Giro the drugs were discovered in his San Remo Hotel room.

Not this time.

Nobody keeps drug in the rooms anymore.

Comprehend now cheapie?

ummm....now you gotta connect that dot with the one that shows rejobako hates humanity.

14-07.-2005, 03:09 AM	#30
Crankster Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 96	Re: Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why? Some stats: 2005 classics Milan-Sanremo: 1 Alessandro Petacchi (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 7.11.39 (40.866 km/h) 2 Danilo Hondo (Ger) Gerolsteiner 3 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Credit Agricole 4 Stuart O'Grady (Aus) Cofidis, Le Credit Par Telephone 5 Oscar Freire Gomez (Spa) Rabobank 6 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française Des Jeux 7 Ruggero Marzoli (Ita) Acqua & Sapone-Adria Mobil 8 Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick Step 9 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi 10 Manuele Mori (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir Tour of Flanders: 1 Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick Step 6.22.00 (40.2 km/h) 2 Andreas Klier (Ger) T-Mobile Team 0.35 3 Peter Van Petegem (Bel) Davitamon-Lotto 0.40 4 Erik Zabel (Ger) T-Mobile Team 5 Roberto Petito (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 6 Alessandro Ballan (Ita) Lampre-Caffita 7 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 1.42 8 Leon Van Bon (Ned) Davitamon-Lotto 9 Serguei Ivanov (Rus) T-Mobile Team 10 Vladimir Gusev (Rus) Team CSC Gent-Wevelgem: 1 Nico Mattan (Bel) Davitamon - Lotto 4.53.07 (42.577 km/h) 2 Juan Antonio Flecha Giannoni (Spa) Fassa Bortolo 0.02 3 Daniele Bennati (Ita) Lampre - Caffita 0.09 4 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Fassa Bortolo 5 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Crédit Agricole 6 Baden Cooke (Aus) Française des Jeux 0.16 7 Tom Steels (Bel) Davitamon - Lotto 0.18 8 Simone Cadamuro (Ita) Domina Vacanze 9 Erik Zabel (Ger) T-Mobile 10 Stuart O'Grady (Aus) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone Paris-Roubaix: 1 Tom Boonen (Bel) Quick Step 6.29.38 (39.88 km/h) 2 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 3 Juan Antonio Flecha (Spa) Fassa Bortolo 4 Magnus Backstedt (Swe) Liquigas-Bianchi 1.09 5 Lars Michaelsen (Den) Team CSC 2.43 6 Leon Van Bon (Ned) Davitamon-Lotto 3.49 7 Florent Brard (Fra) Agritubel 8 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Fassa Bortolo 9 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Credit Agricole 10 Arnaud Coyot (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit Par Telephone Amstel Gold: 1 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas - Bianchi 6.21.07 2 Michael Boogerd (Ned) Rabobank 3 Mirko Celestino (Ita) Domina Vacanze 4 Davide Rebellin (Ita) Gerolsteiner 5 Miguel Angel Martin Perdiguero (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 6 Patrik Sinkewitz (Ger) Quickstep 7 Bjorn Leukemans (Bel) Davitamon-Lotto 8 David Etxebarria Alkorta (Spa) Liberty Seguros - Würth Team 9 Jerome Pineau (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 10 Oscar Freire Gomez (Spa) Rabobank Fleche Wallonne: 1 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi 4.44.55 (42.43 km/h) 2 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Fassa Bortolo 3 Davide Rebellin (Ita) Gerolsteiner 4 David Etxebarria Alkorta (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team 0.04 5 Oscar Freire (Spa) Rabobank 6 Angel Vicioso (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team 7 Patrik Sinkewitz (Ger) Quick Step 8 Aitor Osa (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 9 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 0.08 10 Fabian Wegmann (Ger) Gerolsteiner Liege-Bastogne-Liege: 1 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 6.29.09 (40.09 km/h) 2 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC 3 Michael Boogerd (Ned) Rabobank 0.14 4 Paolo Bettini (Ita) Quick Step 0.24 5 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 6 David Etxebarria (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team 0.27 7 Miguel Angel Martin Perdiguero (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.28 8 Mirko Celestino (Ita) Domina Vacanze 9 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre-Caffita 10 Angel Vicioso (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth Team 2005 Grand Tours: Giro d'Italia: 1 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel-Pro Cycling Team 91.25.51 2 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Lampre-Caffita 0.28 3 Jose' Rujano Guillen (Ven) Selle Italia-Colombia 0.45 4 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi 2.42 5 Juan Manuel Garate (Spa) Saunier Duval-Prodir 3.11 6 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) Domina Vacanze 4.22 7 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears 11.15 8 Pietro Caucchioli (Ita) Credit Agricole 11.38 9 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 11.40 10 Emanuele Sella (Ita) Ceramica Panaria-Navigare 12.33 Tour De France (currently): 1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 41.59.57 (43.902 km/h) 2 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 0.38 3 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole 2.34 4 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 2.40 5 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 3.16 6 Santiago Botero (Col) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.48 7 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 3.58 8 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 4.00 9 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 4.02 10 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 4.16 So LA aside, you can take any one of the top 10 guys in current GC and ask them - why don't you ride (or not successful at) any of the spring classics or Giro? Reversely, you may ask why can't any of the top classic riders or top GC Giro riders ride the Tour successfully?

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