Page 3 - Should Jan retire?

18-07.-2005, 12:51 PM	#31
musette Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,405	Re: Should Jan retire? I wouldn't imagine getting out of the saddle would help his "low cadence, high gear", chug-along climbing style. He doesn't get out of the saddle because he never has, and you know Herr Ullrich doesn't change his ways. Next year, he will have the same problems in the mountains, even without LA, matching the climbers with a fast-accelerating, more explosive capability, like Basso. The key difference between LA's more flexible climbing style was evident in recent stage, when LA could quickly get up to Basso and JU had to chug along and couldn't jump across. The problem with JU's style, and this, by the way, contributes to his being left alone alot on climbs more than LA, is that he can't jump across gaps on mountains on the next group of riders as readily as LA and Basso can. Next year, Valverde and Basso's climbing styles will still present problems for JU. Maybe JU can overcome that with his stronger ITT, but maybe no.

18-07.-2005, 12:57 PM	#32
orhe Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 9	How come Ullrich never gets out of the saddle with that high gear style man it's really hard to just saddle up and accelerate... with jan its more of a pace setting style

18-07.-2005, 02:26 PM	#33
sportzgurl Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New Zealand Posts: 111	Re: Should Jan retire? In short, NO, he shouldn't retire. What where you thinking Ullefan??? His peddling cadence is a pain, he would have been able to stay with IB and LA if he had a lower gear I think. Everytime I see him get dropped I yell at the TV to drop a gear or two, but he never seems too!! I think Phill or Paul said that he tried to change his cadence but it didn't work. Better for Jan to be comfortable than uncomfortable. But hey, theres still the ITT to go! Man I hope he has a big day there.

18-07.-2005, 02:47 PM

#34

limerickman

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Re: Should Jan retire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluetrain

How come Ullrich never gets out of the saddle? I know he his big and powerful but man I would think he would want to get out of the saddle a few times during a climb.

In that respect he is very much like Indurain : Indurain rarely got out of the saddle, even when climbing.
In fact if you see footage of Indurain and Ullrich, they both used to grip the dropbars on the climbs, which was another feature I could never understand (much less try - have you ever tried to climb while on the drops, it's torture).

You don't need to get out of the saddle to climb - Indurain proved that.

18-07.-2005, 04:36 PM	#35
Nein11 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 36	Re: Should Jan retire? My understanding is that on bigger riders it takes 15-30% more energy riding out of the saddle, george was seldom out of the saddle in todays climb either. I have never understood why Jan hasn't tried to utilize a heigher cadence style. Lance had to learn his heigher cadence earlier in his career and subsequently his recovery time improved. I dont often appreciate some peoples willingness to bash LA and attempts to minimize his standing as an HC tour de france rider, i will concede that he had a less then stellar success rate prior to cancer. I have followed his career since 93 and always said that he didn't have it together enough mentally to achieve his physical capabilities.

18-07.-2005, 07:54 PM

#36

Tonto

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Join Date: Nov 2003

Posts: 386

Re: Should Jan retire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by strummer_fan

I think one of Ullrich's problems is that because of having to face LA in the TDF, he has for several years, tried to concentrate on the tour. Few early season races, few late season races, just a focus on the tour.

Jan is in great shape right now. He should ride the Vuelta this year, and next year do some classics, as well as the Giro and the TDF.

He is a strong rider, who still has amazing power. He should expand his racing programme beyond July and bring home some wins for T-Mobile.

I think this is a very good point. Ullrich last won a grand tour in 1999, the Vuelta, and since then he hasn't won any of the top prizes. This is a real shame for a rider of his talent. When you think that he has focussed purely on the Tour for that last 6 years and each time has been beaten, that's got to be really hard to take. I think if he went into the Giro or the Vuelta as well, he could have won a few more grand tours, given that he's a superior rider to most of the winners of both over the last few years. This could have worked wonders for his confidence and possibly his physical condition. We know it takes him a while to get going in the Tour each year, but if he'd been competitive in the Giro six weeks before, then maybe he'd have been able to hit the ground running on the first weekend in July. Basso showed this year that competing in the Giro doesn't mean you can't be on top form in the Tour.

Last edited by Tonto : 18-07.-2005 at 08:17 PM.

18-07.-2005, 08:52 PM

#37

sopas

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Re: Should Jan retire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Yes Indurain almost always climbed sit down and rarely standed up on the pedals. A few years ago I tried to copy this style on my bike. The first days were real torture like limerickman said. My lower back suffered a lot climbing this way. However, a couple of weeks later I began to get familiar riding that way and I got stronger overall. Now, except for sprints, I very much ride like that all the time even when climbing. I also got much better ridding on the flats and ITT. I got much more power.

I don't know if this has to do with the size of the rider but it works for me. I am 1,85 cm high and weight 73 kg when in good shape. However I am not a pure rider, I practice Triathlon. I think my swimming help me adopt this posture on the bike by strenghtening the muscles of my back.

Last edited by sopas : 18-07.-2005 at 09:05 PM.

18-07.-2005, 08:57 PM	#38
guncha Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Riga, Latvia Posts: 224	Re: Should Jan retire? Has Jan ever won TDF mountaintop finish? __________________ Why am I still a fan of dopers sport?

18-07.-2005, 09:01 PM

#39

sopas

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Posts: 251

Re: Should Jan retire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by guncha

Has Jan ever won TDF mountaintop finish?

Yes, in 1997 on his way to Andorra-Arcalis. Memorable stage. He dropped everybody (Virenque, Riis, Pantani, Olano, etc) and arrived alone on the top. Unfortunately, Jan has never achived that formidable shape again.

18-07.-2005, 09:07 PM	#40
musette Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,405	Re: Should Jan retire? Indurain had somewhat higher cadence than JU does. Even Pavenage publicly asked why JU was riding such a high gear in the Stage 1 ITT. JU has to improve his climbing acceleration, even if that is antithetical to his current climbing style. With Valverde, Basso, etc. JU's current climbing style is not going to be too capable of responding to their sudden accelerations. And while Valverde and Basso (and most cyclists, obviously excluding LA) are weaker ITTists than JU, Basso is improving. The reason JU can't ever defeat LA boils down to three things: (1) when LA is at his best, he's a better ITTist than JU, (2) when LA is at his best, he is a a much better climber, and a more explosive climber, than JU, and (3) LA works a lot harder than JU and is more strategic in recruiting and training his domestiques.

18-07.-2005, 10:10 PM

#41

Nein11

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Join Date: Jun 2005

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Re: Should Jan retire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nein11

My understanding is that on bigger riders it takes 15-30% more energy riding out of the saddle, george was seldom out of the saddle in todays climb either.

I have never understood why Jan hasn't tried to utilize a heigher cadence style. Lance had to learn his heigher cadence earlier in his career and subsequently his recovery time improved.

I dont often appreciate some peoples willingness to bash LA and attempts to minimize his standing as an HC tour de france rider, i will concede that he had a less then stellar success rate prior to cancer. I have followed his career since 93 and always said that he didn't have it together enough mentally to achieve his physical capabilities.

ment to say that he didn't have it mentally prior to his fight with cancer.

18-07.-2005, 10:45 PM	#42
alibat Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Yorkshire, UK Posts: 154	Re: Should Jan retire? In short, no although I think he should think about getting on a team who will support him 100%. The TM management need shooting for wasting such a talent. I've also always believed that Jan would benefit from more racing, racing into fitness rather than training and trying to emulate LA who is a completly different rider. He has the ability to beat LA. It is a tragedy that he hasn't.

18-07.-2005, 11:02 PM

#43

limerickman

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Re: Should Jan retire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas

You're not BigMig, by any chance are you ?

How guys like JU and Indurain cycle uphill on the drops, amazed me.
I was on Alp D'Huez that day when he passed us by, between switchback 10 and 11, and he came by us on the drops CHASING PANTANI UP THE CLIMB !
Amazing.

19-07.-2005, 12:19 AM

#44

sopas

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Re: Should Jan retire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

You're not BigMig, by any chance are you ?

LOL, I wish I were!
Miguel was somewhat bigger than me. 1,88 cm and 80 kg.
Ulrich is not that big but still. 1.83 cm and 73 kg.

19-07.-2005, 01:11 AM

#45

rejobako

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Posts: 648

Re: Should Jan retire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas

LOL, I wish I were!
Miguel was somewhat bigger than me. 1,88 cm and 80 kg.
Ulrich is not that big but still. 1.83 cm and 73 kg.

Jan's cycling style makes him seem bigger, I think. In answer to the question posed by the thread, I think it would be interesting if he hung around for another year and tried the TdF again. Even with his inability to match the sudden accelerations, his doggedness and his ability to reel back most everone in front of him is impressive. Take Armstrong out of the picture, and I suspect Basso would have a tough time holding off T-Mobile's attack by himself (and let's face it -- this would be his challenge. No offense to Rasmussen, but I think his current GC placing is a bit overstated considering he benefitted from that long breakaway, and also because he's going to lose a lot of minutes in the last ITT.)

Even though Jan will forever be labeled by some as the man who couldn't beat Armstrong, it would be a great legacy to have two TdF wins bookending Armstrong's career, with a slew of podium finishes in between. For all the criticism thrown at him, Ullrich has been among cycling's elite for a decade, and has his share of successes. To define him on the basis of what he could not do would be terribly unfair, although I suspect many will always remember him that way.

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