Armstrong press conference cancer announcement

thebluetrain

Lim, thanks for agreeing, Everbody seems to want jump Nike's ass these days and I was only pointing out that its not all Nike's fault.

limerickman

No problem.
Nike are culpable and so too are many other companies.

I try to avoid consuming goods/services from companies who don't eithically trade.

DV1976

cyn·i·cal (sĭn'ĭ-kəl) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
adj.

1. Believing or showing the belief that people are motivated chiefly by base or selfish concerns; skeptical of the motives of others: a cynical dismissal of the politician's promise to reform the campaign finance system.
2. Selfishly or callously calculating: showed a cynical disregard for the safety of his troops in his efforts to advance his reputation.
3. Negative or pessimistic, as from world-weariness: a cynical view of the average voter's intelligence.
4. Expressing jaded or scornful skepticism or negativity: cynical laughter.

cyn'i·cal·ly adv.


I think I do know rejobako... It's your dictionary that has the problem...

DV1976

Some information on such products and points of purchase in the UK please lim???

limerickman

Here's a whole list of fair trade retailers :

http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/suppliers_retailers.htm

DV1976

thanx lim

WP33

Thanks for questioning my intelligence! Oh, please, don't taunt me on the internet anymore, I don't know if fragile ego can take it.

Look, my point is you cannot monitor every purchase you make. Do you tote this list of fair trade manufacturers with you everywhere you go just in case you decide on a whim to purchase something? Do you know where these manufacturers get their raw materials to create these fabulous ethical products you use? How much research are you doing into your purchases, and do you analyze everything you buy? (This last question is a real one- I'm curious) How likely do you think that producers of consumer goods are either getting parts or whole components from Third World countries where business practices are questionable? Does Trek produce all of their bolts for their bikes? Does Shimano make cables in-house for their brakes and shifters? Is Hanes growing its cotton in the US or is it getting it from Mexico or Afghanistan where they can pay what amounts to pennies on the dollar for the same materials? Every business is trying to cut costs somewhere, and though there are purely ethical companies out there, that do strive to buy only "fair trade" materials and components, most will get these materials and components anywhere they can, and then feign "moral outrage" when they get caught with goods produced by 12 year olds working 17 hours a day for 35 cents a week. They'll dump that supplier and move onto another, but one that's likely doing the same things. It's the way of things. The truly ethical businesses are few and far between. I'm truly curious as to how you are able to seperate the truly ethical from the not. I'm saying everyone who says they're not buying from XYZ company because of ethical concerns has a somewhat valid point, but if they turn around abd by a competitve product from ABC company, they better be damn sure they know where every bit and piece of that product is made or they have just outed themselves as a hypocrite. (Forgive the previous post- beer and a late night does no one good when posting )

limerickman

You raise a number of interesting issues : how can one be certain that a products is truly "fairtrade" ?
Let's take coffee for example : the consumer can choose to buy Nestle-sourced coffee or can choose to purchase fairtrade produced coffee.
You see conglomerates pay the supplier (the third world farmer) a pittance and sell his product at a massive margin, because of that pittance.
Whereas a fairtrade company will pay the farmer the going rate for coffee and he will charge me a little bit more than Nestle.
However I am happy to pay the little bit more because I know that the farmer who produced the coffee beans is getting a fair price for his produce and I know that the retailer is getting a fair margin too.
If I buy from Nestle, I know the farmer has been screwed and I know that the huge margin is going in to Nestle's profit and loss account (probably better known in your country as Income and Expenditure statement).

How do I discern the truly ethical company from the rest ?
Most companies have policies and if you take the time to read the policies you will see that all fairtrade companies publish information about how they source and procure product - they also detail envoirmental safeguards etc.

It takes time to research and to locate ethical companies but they are there.

I take on board what you say about companies trying to squeeze costs.
The only problem with squeezing costs is that us - in the first world - are benefitting directly from the exploitation of folk in the third world.
That's the reality, if we choose to accept it.

I don't choose to accept it - it is simply not acceptable that I should or could support a company or product that earns it's supplier massive profits at the cost of exploitative labour in the third world.
Maybe I am fortunate to be able to make this choice.

In fact I am fortunate - that is why I make that choice !

WP33

Thank you for the well mannered and reasoned response. Good thinking points. It's just unfortunate that in some cases, because of the component nature of some products (not foodstuffs, mind you, though even some of that can be questionable), you just don't know where some of the stuff is coming from. And it's laudable to want to support those fair trade companies, but is it 100% doable? This is where I feel the hypocrite label is apt for those who say "I buy only fair trade goods" but don't know where everything they consume comes from. It's just not easily done unless you eliminate a large portion of what you buy. Everyone flip over the tag of the shirt you're wearing right now, look at it, and you'll see what I'm driving at. The basics are if Hanes can make 25% more on a single pair of socks made in Pakistan over a pair made by unionized shop workers in Ohio, they will. I don't have to like it, and don't, but thems facts.

And, the majority of the population doesn't think as you do, Lim, unfortunately. They're happy with their cheap goods, lower quality coffees, the Wal-Marts and McDonalds of the world because they're cheaper and they want stuff. They want TVs and basketball shoes and cars for less money, and the companies want their money, so they accomodate. You are right, as long as the choice is made to purchase these goods, it will perpetuate the whole cycle and you'll have your Bangladeshi t-shirts and Mexican-farmed tomatoes (at least here in the US). There's an inequity in the system, but we can't just lay the blame on the producers. We as consumers need to take on part of that burden, I agree, but when the saturation of inequitably produced goods in the marketplace is so high, lotsa luck. I for one don't wish to start knitting my own socks.

limerickman

I am sure that I consume stuff that has been made at the expense of cheap labour somewhere.
But I try in as far as I can, to make sure that what I do consume is ehically and fairly sourced.

Is it doable ? Not 100% of the time, I am sure but I try my best.

I have asked the staff in the shopping malls about product "I am interesting in buying ABCD but I'd like to know where this product is sourced from and how it is sourced" : that get's their attention.




and you're 100% correct in what you say here.
To make any product in the first world will always be more expensive - in terms of labour costs - than it is to make in the third world.
But if you buy a product made in the USA - even though it may be dearer, you are helping to protect your fellow citizens livelihood as well.

I have no difficulty with buying a product from the third world - so long as I can be sure that the person making that product is getting a fair wage and is
working in good conditions and is not being forced to work in a sweatshop 24 hours per day.



I don't want to darn my own socks either.
And I am not what some people call "a tree hugger" either.

I just think that I am earning a good wage, I am fortunate to be in the first world and I feel I have a responsibility, because I am fortunate, to try to do the correct thing when I can.
I try to put myself in the position of the person in the third world - that's all.

I am sure a lot of people can't afford to make a choice - they buy the cheapest because their incme dictates.
I just think that where we can make an informed choice, we should.

(I don't want to this to appear to be a homily about good living either !)

whiteboytrash

Rock on Lim ! Scotty_Dog has gone to the dogz......... may the force be with WBT !

thebluetrain

Ok, I just contributed to the Scumbags Gross Profit. All this talk about Nike etc. just put a bug up my @ss so I had to go to the local shoe outlet and buy myself a new pair of running shoes. I intially was only going to buy 1 pair of shoes but the sales lady was so cute and was wearing a very low cut blouse that she convinced me to buy a second pair at 1/2 price. I kept all of you in mind while I was doing my shopping and scouted 4 different major brands. Here is what I found.

Nike/Made in Thailand
New Balance/Made in China
Reebok/Made in China
Adidas/Made in China

I bought a pair of Nike Air Max Rivals, a pair of New Balance 642's and 4 brand new work out shirts at $5 each for a total of $98.63(U.S.). Not a bad deal and plus I got to look at a nice rack while trying on the shoes.