Page 11 - My experince with drugs and blood doping

08-02.-2007, 08:33 PM

#151

Speedskater

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

The only thing I find positive about cortisol is the ability to block pain during a sporting event. However, I believe many retired professional athletes that competed in impact event like the NFL are near crippled later in life because these types of steroids are used to block the pain during the season and yet the injury continues to digress rather than heal.

I have found no other legitimate study stating that there is an increase in performance from the increase in cortisol level, natural or synthetic.

I also find it odd to use anabolics and cortisone injection at the same time since each interfere with each other in binding to the receptor. In a sense blocking one or the other out. However, many people do this temporarily because of the statement above and that is to block pain during the event. Otherwise it is more beneficial to reduce cortisol levels as much as possible (for a natural or a PED user).

Cortisone (ACTH)injections can also weaken the immune system and increase the risk of colds or flu. The positive for a cyclist perhaps could be the muscle wasting aspect for a larger more muscular athelete. It is also said to impact mood which may be a positive depending on the person and the event, but AAS also impact the mood potentially making a much more aggressive athlete.

I recently read a German book solely dedicated to the use of performance enhancing drugs in endurance sports, not bodybuilding or else. The author stated that anabolics have a tendency to tighten up muscles due to increased storage of water and other factors. Things you definitely want if you have to race especially in hills. Here the corticoids come in. They seem to loosen the muscle and thereby enable greater performance in athletes, particulary those on steroids.This is the competition side of corticoids.
The other effect ist that as catabolic hormones, corticoids "melt down" muscle tissue that is not all to active, like the upper body of cyclists. When looking at the upper and lower bodies of pros, this sounds quite conclusive.
On the other hand, side effects of long term use also have to be considered as written in somes posts here. One side effect for performance orintes athletes is the accumulation of excessice body fat, if taken to long or in doses to high.

09-02.-2007, 12:04 AM	#152
Felt_Rider Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,293	Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping Thanks for the discussion and what you state is reality and is something that I did take into consideration on my previous response, but did not express that point of view. As a former user I avoided using cortisone injections on or off season even when my physician desired to use them on me to help me through an injury during pre contest training because of the antagonistic effect of cortisone while using anabolics. I was determined to endure the pain long enough to make it to competition and then take time off to properly rehab the injury. However, over the weeks and months of preparation for various types of competitive sports many athletes suffer injuries (mostly repetitive use injuries) or inflammation that can hinder. There comes a time for some of those athletes to make a decision between the antogonistic effect between the two since both are trying to bind to the same receptor site and being able to endure training (which is usually ramped up and makes the rehab impossible and more than likely the pain more intense). I can't imagine the discomfort that Landis endured while preparing for the 2006 season. At that point of enduring discomfort you ask for relief without regard of the antogonistic effect of the two drugs. It would be foolish of me to state these are the reasons and the only reasons, but it seemed to be the most common in my former circle of associates as I know other lifters that would get cortisone injections for injured rotator cuffs while simulanteously using anabolics. They used the cortisone reluctantly. Everything I have researched keeps going back to no performance ehancement from cortisone and cortisone used primarily for blocking pain. In that sense one will perform much better when not in pain. That can be debated as to whether that is performance enhancing or if it merely puts the person in pain back to a normal competitive level in the field of athletes. I would imagine it does provide a slight advantage, but not as big of an advantage as EPO, GH and AAS. Link 1

06-03.-2007, 07:34 PM

#153

Chris_E

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfrae

When was Lance Armstrong ever the World Time Trial Champ? I thought he was road champ and only TT champs could wear the jersey during TTs?

There wasn't a World championship TT untill Chris Boardman won in 1994 presumably after this Tour was over.

27-03.-2007, 05:21 AM

#154

bikerboy

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiMan

I took 175 mg of testosterone per week by injection for one season.The ability to recover after repeated hard days was unreal. This dose of testosterone put my testosterone level above 1000ng/dl...about twice what a normal male puts out.
This is what the test does....it helps you recover. You can also get down below 6% body fat without loosing any muscle mass. On the down side test, and all steroids, will make you hold water weight and I was holding about 5 pounds I think. The water, however, is mainly intramuscular and it helps with strength a lot.

Sides.....acne, lost a bit of hair, and of course even a small dose of testosterone will shut down your natural testosterone production completely. When you stop it takes a while before your natural testosterone level comes back and you feel tired and with no sex drive at all.
Testosterone and all steroids will make your good cholesterol(hdl) basically disappear as well while "on" the stuff.

I also used EPO for 4 months 4000 iu's injected sub Q in the lower belly fat once a week to build, and then 1000 a week to hold. 4000iu's will bring your hematocrit up 1% a week.
I went up to 54% but even at 50%, the legal limit in the pro ranks , my performance was unreal.
My sustainable power output went from 350 to 420 in three months!!! That's a 20% gain!!!

Sides.....none because I checked my crit every three days with a portable crit tester.
I also NEVER got dehydrated and never went above 54%.
If anyone does not test their hematocrit at least weekly then they are idiots plain and simple.

Anyone that goes above 55% is an idiot because at night when your heart rate and blood pressure drops you can DIE simply because the heart is not getting enough oxygen.
By the way Riis and Pantani were well above 55% when they won "the tour".

At the time I was racing Cat 1 and I can tell you that most of the guys that were really good riders were on EPO or at least blood doping.

Now for the VERY COMMON way to blood dope.
Our team doctor would take about a liter of blood out of each of us a couple months before a big race. Then he would spin it in a centrifuge to rid the blood of plasma...what was left was pure red blood cells(packed cells). He would then drain the blood into blood bags, put preservative in it and put the whole nine yards in a frige at 33 degrees F. The day of the race we would infuse our own blood back. Each unit of packed cells(about 300cc) would increase our hematocrit about by 3!!! so if you infused 3 units you jumped 9 points....like from 45 to 54%!!!

Now I don't think that anyone should use drugs. I for one didn't like myself while I was "on". I always wondered about the guys in the back of the pack...what if they took drugs...maybe they would kick my ass. What about the pro's that don't use drugs ....maybe they would kick Armstrongs ass too.

SO...anyone who believes that Armstrong or any other top pro or even any top Cat 1 national level rider is clean simply lacks high level racing experince. Armstrong is an asshole for saying he has is clean......Greg Lemond know better. I do NOT wear the yellow wrist band!!!

I believe that a lot of guys in the pros do drugs, perhaps 99-99.8% of them. I think it would be cool for a team to to be followed by cameras 24/7 for a year before they rode the tour, then at the tour and see if anyone can finish.

07-05.-2007, 10:24 AM	#155
dsschanze Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 77	Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping Ok...not that I want to be a user or anything...but where do you get the EPO and testosterone from? __________________ Scott CR-1 Pro -Garmin Edge 705 -Shimano Ultegra 10 -Mavic Ksyrium Elite -Fulcrum Racing 3

08-05.-2007, 06:06 AM

#156

Bro Deal

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsschanze

Ok...not that I want to be a user or anything...but where do you get the EPO and testosterone from?

http://www.eposino.com/order_now.php

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08-05.-2007, 06:58 AM

#157

dsschanze

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

http://www.eposino.com/order_now.php

Isn't that illegal for them to sell that without a perscription?

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08-05.-2007, 12:20 PM

#158

j.r.hawkins

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiMan

Yes.....his excuse and quickly produced doc script for a cream worked and there was no charge. But as I said before.....nobody uses a cream with a corticosteroid in it because it thi ns the skin...that's commonly know. AND....the riders and their doctors know excatly what is in every product they use and they would never miss a seeing a corticosteroid.

This is true only if used for a sustained period of time, depending on the specific steroid. I have issues with dermatitis that require the use of a topical cream from time to time. While some might call me thin-skinned, it has nothing to do with the areas to which I apply the cream.

If used only for a week or two at a time there are usually no issues with products like Sigmacort and it cousins. So much so, that where i live they are a available from pharmacies without scripts.

09-05.-2007, 02:13 AM

#159

macd

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

http://www.eposino.com/order_now.php

Before a bunch of you knuckleheads run out and buy some EPO, be aware that this is can be deadly sh$t. You just dont go shooting EPO and think you will become Lance. Unless you have the means or equipment to monitor your hematocrit on weekly basis dont even think about. Just my $.02. You life do with it as you please. Just be aware you could wake up dead some morning because your blood got to thick.

09-05.-2007, 06:36 AM

#160

dsschanze

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by macd

I never said I was gonna do it, cause as you say, unless you can monitor it every week, it could be very dangerous...either way, I value my life and my image too much to be a "user".

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17-05.-2007, 09:50 AM

#161

bikerboy

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsschanze

I never said I was gonna do it, cause as you say, unless you can monitor it every week, it could be very dangerous...either way, I value my life and my image too much to be a "user".

Its way too easy, but it doesnt really make a difference in Amateurs. If you can be pro you will see it.

31-05.-2007, 07:01 AM

#162

Thunderlump

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikerboy

Its way too easy, but it doesnt really make a difference in Amateurs. If you can be pro you will see it.

First of all thanks to TiMan for having the minerals to say what needed to be said. Second I dont understand why people who have doped admit they did it, with the Caviate "I quit because I felt bad or guilty". The truth is they were scared so they quit. Either they were scared of dying, sideffects, being caught, public scrutiny, legal problems, or whatever else the imagination conjurs. LA used doping products to recover from cancer, read "Its not about the bike" in there he talks about having to use Epo for recovery. Dr Ferrari is A dope pedeler you dont go to him, unless you need go fast juice, period. LA did dope, but he wont be remembered for that just like Eddy isnt remembered for that. Doping is A high stake's game that isnt worth entering until money is on the line, and with the acception of A few comments in here, I dont see anyone who knows enough about it to make solid comments for either side. From first hand experience I can tell you at the top level of any sport doping is routine, and if it isnt your not competative. If you dont like it, keep fooling yourself, try breaking through the semi's to the pros without gear. Try going from cancer riddled, to pro cycling superstar. You cant do it naturally, no matter how much god given talent or genetics you may have.

31-05.-2007, 10:10 PM

#163

bikerboy

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderlump

Second I dont understand why people who have doped admit they did it, with the Caviate "I quit because I felt bad or guilty". The truth is they were scared so they quit. Either they were scared of dying, sideffects, being caught, public scrutiny, legal problems, or whatever else the imagination conjurs.

Most of these guys probably did it their whole careers. The WADA rules state they can only prosecute on the last 8 years. Cyclingnews.com sort of, suggested that.

01-06.-2007, 01:55 AM

#164

Thunderlump

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikerboy

Most of these guys probably did it their whole careers. The WADA rules state they can only prosecute on the last 8 years. Cyclingnews.com sort of, suggested that.

Look I wont say where or what I ride, but I can say I have used A variety of steroids, and and have acheived A crit level of 53 without EPO. For the record EPO is alot more expensive and in my opinion dangerous than steroids. I personally know three pro mountainbikers who have gone to Mexico for training and returned with some intresting gear. They arent top pros but they do consistantly good top 50 at norbas and such. These are fast guys but not the fastest why? Because others pay top doller for doctor supervised programs running from 12k-50k per year. To top it off, if everyone is using the same gear it still boils down to talent, effort, physiology, training, phsycology, team mates, ETC. If LA came out tomorrow and says he doped for his seven wins; In my humble opinion it takes nothing away from him or the sport. Why? because everyone he has raced against has been busted, the facts are Hamilton Busted, Ullrich Busted, Basso Busted, Floyd Landis Busted, Phillip Meirhagi Busted, Pantani Busted, Roland Green Busted. You get the idea. You dont need to look to far into this subject to find doctors and clinics for such service's. Anyone here about the new "anti -aging" clinics? Completly legal law wise, Ethical maybe not? But how much is it worth $$$Wise? How much did LA make over the years? How much is he still making on endorsments? We se 275 pound NFL players running 4 second fourty's and dont bat an eyelash. Why do we think cycling is special when we find out the truth? All of the worlds greatest Profesional sports figures are masters of illusion, and we are all consuming sicofants. Until we as cyclists take off our rose colored glasses, we will see our sport decline, we need player protection like the NBA, NFL and MLB. All of of these leagues have player unions for protection. Hell Micheal Irvin and Lawrence Taylor smoked crack and shot up roids before every game, both are hall of famers, you dont see the NFL asking for their superbowl rings. Barry Bonds is going for his second home run record, he will also be A hall of famer. Until we get A riders union this will continue to be the problem people imagine it is. Cyclists need to put down the fairytale books and push for reform that will promote and grow the sport. We need to quit canabalizing our sport, and quit pretending we are in Kiddie land. Then we can get some growth for the sport.

07-06.-2007, 07:18 AM	#165
Crankyfeet Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: You are here => X Posts: 10,495	Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping I'm relatively new to cycling and this forum. I have played international sport though my knowledge of cycling is comparitively poor. After buying a decent bike, I am now in love with riding and ecstatic that I can give 100%, get fitter every day, and not have any side effects in my three-times-operated-upon knee. Since this is a forum of opinions, I will venture mine. I hope I am not unduly wasting peoples' time. 1. Thanks TiMan for your input and a great and very interesting thread. 2. I am not for or against LA. I am not an American, though I currently live in a great country called USA. Barring a confession which would make it conclusive, the weight of evidence (including multiple testimony) points to LA being a doper like the others that he beat. 3. Unfortunately the revelation that he doped would have a detrimental effect on cycling, as most parents of young cyclists can currently cling to the belief that their child could become the world's best and be clean (like Lance "apparently" did). 4. Some people seem to believe that if you pass a drug test at an event, then that means you don't dope. Can someone please explain to those who may be ignorant, the limitations of drug tests done at the time of an event. 5. Why not make drugs legal if everyone is doing it anyway? Because drugs unlike great training, can have serious side effects, especially if not administered correctly. Also they have different effects on different people meaning that people would probably place differently in a race where everyone was doped compared to the same race with everyone clean. As well, would you like your great cyclist 15 year old son to progress up the ranks knowing that he is going to have to dope to compete at the top level? Which is probably the case now anyway. Given the choice of training for three years in the Andes or taking several injections whereby the haemocrit results are even better, I know which one is more appealing. 6. I love training and improving but it discourages me to think that I may compete even at club level and be smacked in performance by lesser natural athletes on juice. How can I ever know how good I am??? 7. Like an attention-starved teenager, House needs attention and response, not logic. People please ignore him. It is the best form of rebuttal. 8. The big question is not really whether LA juiced, but knowing that the majority of the professional and top amateurs dope, and knowing as TiMan explained the benefits of doping, how does one eradicate it? Testing is only going to be useful if you do it every day of the year on every athlete, cat2 and above(and that there are infallible tests for every form of doping). Since that is not going to be monetarily feasible it seems, are there any other suggestions?

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