My experince with drugs and blood doping

memphiscyclist

Yeah, and aliens have landed on earth because I saw a strange light in the sky last night. You're grasping at straws man...grasping at straws. Nobody is perfect and I'm sure that somewhere in the history of pro cycling, a medication was accidentally overlooked by a team doctor or racer. You sound about as intelligent as Tom Cruise does when he denounces the entire psychiatric community as a bunch of quacks based on his knowledge of Scientology.

TiMan

I have been around on the board for along time but never posted much.

I am talking about my past experience now because I am tired of hearing all those bro's out there that think the sport is clean at a high level.

The truth is the higher the level the more the doping.

I knew I would get some flames a I mentioned "Lance" but I just had to throw in some stuff on him because there are so many that actually believe this guy.

As I mentioned you don't have to catch a guy red handed to know that he is on something. When someone all of a sudden starts to kick butt when in the near past it was different then you know somethings up.

Elite riders know that you are 98% "there" by the age of 25....the rest comes form experience and a little boost in lactate threshold up to about age 30 tops.

Lance was caught with a corticosteroid in his system and that is proof BUT people bought the cover-up so they disregard that.....Lance visited Ferarri at least 10 times and sometimes for days and the only thing he ever did for the sport was to tell riders how to dope and especially how to beat the "tests"....this is a HUGE smoking gun because that's ALL ferarri did....NOT A DAMN THING ELSE.

Lemond knew that all Ferarri did was advise on doping and how to beat tests.....and I am glad he had the balls to speak up when he did.

But you know what... I think I am done on this post now. I don't want to beat my head against the wall talking with some on this forum that are kids(not you) and don't know a damn thing about what racing at Cat 1 is like in the USA or europe. I lived it, I experienced it for 13 LONG YEARS. I saw guys use drugs....I talked with MANY as well....we exchanged info.....I saw careers TAKE OFF and drug users get pro contracts and I saw guys refuse to take drugs and never "make it". But I am glad that I did see guys turn pro that I think never used drugs.

Sadly the sport that I love it not all about genetics and hard work....it's about much more....you have to throw in politcis, knowing the right people, and plenty of drugs into the equation. Yes there are some that do fairly well without drugs but NONE of the very best riders on the four teams that I raced on over 13 years were clean. I knew them all very well. I became a "very best" with the drugs but you know what, I didn't feel like "a very best" ....I felt like a cheater. I am glad I stopped when I did.

As a side.....Notice that the euro's don't flame me...it's because they know more than us Americans due to their exposure.

memphiscyclist

Armstrong's performance was already among the gods of triathletes when he was a young teenager. I suppose he was doping then too, right? Bottom line...if someone is a proven doper, you have a right to bash them. If someone is not a proven doper, don't claim to "know" that they are. And certainly don't bash an unproven doper who has raised millions of dollars for cancer through the dope infested sport of cycling itself.

Alex B

My intent was to state a facet of the doping situation that is often overlooked when doping is discussed. My intent was to bring the criminal side of doping into the discussion. I did not intend to attack Timan's credibility or use the "appeal to authority" argument. Please explain the logic that you used to arrive at the conclusion that I used the "appeal to authority" argument.

I never stated that a criminal does not have credibility or lacks the ability to tell the truth. I said that a doper is a criminal.

I do agree that Timan's candor is refreshing.

Alex

TiMan

Armstrong is a doper as he had a corticosteroid in his system...he has been caught!!!...but most believe his cover up. Don't you get it bro......riders don't just "miss" seeing a corticosteroid in a medicine...it does not happen. The team doc goes over everything with a "fine tooth comb". And besides no rider in his right mind would ever use a cream with a corticosteroid because, as I said, it thins the skin and this all Cat 2 riders and above know.

Armstrong has great genetics this is true but you don't turn a quarter horse into a throughbred without a lot of tinkering.......he was a decent classics rider that did poorly in grand tours(quarter horse)...then he comes out of nowhere to not only do well in grand tours but to KILL everyone(thoroughbred)...and all this starts out of the blue at age 27......NOT!

ives

Again, thank you for your candor, TIMan.

I understand that you may want to bow out of this discussion since it has (inevitably) turned into a flame match.

However, if you feel able, perhaps you could elucidate how the drugs actually made you feel on this bike? Was it like suddenly having a new engine ,like going from a Ford to a Ferrari, or was it more subtle than that. Or were the effects more to do with the ability to recover from high work loads, thus enabling one to effectively train harder and longer?

I remember Kimmage stating that he just didn't feel the pedals when he doped, that it was almost effortless. I'm not sure what he was taking, maybe some amphetamine rather than EPO, which wasn't widely available in the 80's. perhaps you can elaborate?

TiMan

I felt very strong very quickly. Now in training, improvement" very quickly" mean in a matter of weeks.
In 12 weeks my sustainable power went fro 350 to 420 and then peaked at 440 after 4 months. I FELT LIKE SUPERMAN frankly....and funy thing is I had a hard time getting that terrible "burning" feeling that we all experience once past threshold and into the anaerobic zone.
Without a doubt the epo was better than the testosterone but the testosterone did help me recover between very hard workouts very quickly. I think the epo helped too.


The testosterone allowed me to get to my lowest ever body fat percentage at about 3.5%...and I lost NO MUSCLE MASS in the process and in fact my legs got a little bigger.

My sex drive was through the roof from the high testosterone levels...poor wife he he he. The scary thing is that even average looking girls would look good

So yes one feels great on epo and testosterone....physically that is....but I felt bad psychologically. I felt like the cheater I was...even though I knew many others where doping.

The "last straw" for me was when I saw another very good rider inject himself in a hotel room that we shared. For some reason that scene hit me hard and I decided that if I didn't get a pro contract by the end of the season I would never juice again.....never got the contract and never juiced again....but my buddy that I saw inject did go on to become a pro, even though I was a better rider than him.

txags92

No, your story told us that YOU did that. Your story about doping included nothing that told me that the elite riders all did it other than a baseless claim that you "know" they do. You also said others turned pro and did well without drugs. None of this is new. Flyer has told everybody here that "all the elite riders do it" ad nauseum, and the only thing different about your story here is that you admit to doing it and still being unable to get a contract to turn pro. Other than that, every statement you have made is simply another "I know LA dopes because everybody else does" line with no backup whatsoever. I would say that I appreciate your candor in admitting your own cheating, but I think your candor is misplaced. You aren't proving anything against LA by telling us your cheating story, and continuing the whole "everybody does it" line while also telling us that "some people went pro and did well without it" or "I cheated and couldn't get a contract" is totally contradictory and proves nothing about elite cycling or LA. Sorry if that offends you, as your story is quite interesting, but in the end tells us nothing new about the topics of elite racing or LA. It simply says you cheated and it didn't work out for you...

Roadie_scum

When you say your sustainable power was 440W, how did you measure it and how long could you sustain that for? And what was your body mass? That is an absolute elite figure and it is beyond stunning that you didn't get a contract if you could put out that number for than 30-40 minutes.

Ashley3

Yes, thanks for the candor and the insight. I've been reading this fourm for quite a while and this is one of the most interesting discussions I've come upon. There's been a bit of an edge to it, but given the passions involved it's been surprisingly civil.
It is a debate of Armstrong's place in history that will outlive us all. I wonder, however, if in time the drug question will fall by the wayside, much as it has with Eddie Merckx who, although being caught doping more than once, is generally acknowledged as the best rider in history?

TiMan

I could hold 440 for 45 minutes on a trainer with power meter . I was 5'8.5" tall and 145 pounds.
Ya that buddy of mine that I mentioned...that turned my stomach while injecting....was doing the same test right beside me and could only hold 420 watts and he weighed about the same as me....yet he did get a contract. But he was only 21 years old and I am sure that had a lot to do with it.

The better "continental pro's " can hold 440 plus wattage for an hour....Armstrong can hold over 500 for an hour.

I was 32 years of age so I think that's why I didn't get a contract...even though I was winning a lot of races. "They" are looking for 18-21 year olds much of the time or 25 years olds tops...for long term developement and building.

Lots of older guys have great(pro level) sustainable power output but you have to be in right place at the right time to get a pro contract....and part of this is impressing them as a young rider.

I remember Greg Lemond winning a very big race in Arizona(Bisbee tour) at age 16....boy did that make them sit up and take notice.

Roadrash Dunc

We all know cycling isnt clean.
We all know what EPO does.
Nothing youve posted sheds any light on pro racing whatsoever.

Youre obviously a guy with a chip on his shoulder about something so felt the need to get some attention going on here whilst slandering the highest profile bike racer.
You arent a cat1 pro and you havent taken EPO.

Regardless IF you did , it doesnt mean EVERYONE in pro cycling does.Thats just retarded logic , but then i guess im a moron for trying to logically talk to a retard.
Tell us your real name or fuck off and do something constructive with yourself.

ps: if you really wanted people to belive what you said , you should have kept totally neutral about other riders.As soon as you name someone (in this case Lance - especially in this case) you lose all objectivity and it becomes clear youre just having a dig.

Roadie_scum

What was the power measuring device (computrainer, polar, SRM, powertap?) and when/how was it calibrated?

145 pounds is about 66kg so with 440 watts as a funtional threshold that yields 6.7W/kg. This is above world class on Andy Coggan's table of expected power over various durations for different level athletes. It is also higher than the 6.5W/kg Ric Stern reports as required for GC riders in the TdF, which has been described as the current ceiling for human performance ~1 hour.

I train with an (admittedly young) US pro who does 440 watts for his 3-4 minute efforts. He has finished reasonably well in NRC races, but no way is he riding those 440 watts for too much longer than that (maybe 6-8 minutes max I would guess). This meshes well with Ric Stern's suggestion that Cat 1's normally reach ~450W for MAP tests - the end of an MAP test normally represents a power that can be held for maybe 5 minutes.

Further, Nathan O'Neill reports being able to hold 430W for around 30-40 minutes when TTing well, and Mick Rogers ~450W for his TT world championship.

I'm interested in what you have to say, but I'd like some clarification as the numbers you are giving don't seem quite credible and I suspect your equipment was incorrectly calibrated (SRM's for example are particularly sensitive to temperature and humidity changes). I can happily believe 350W as your starting point though.

Roadrash Dunc

And now youre saying you have a power output of 6.7w/kgm for 45 minutes.About the same as Armstrong.

Please , quit while youre only a little bit behind.Pinocchio has nothing on you.
Your pants on fire?