Training plans for Winter?

awest1982

I like the fact that some other girls are competitive out there. The best advice I have for getting faster for racing is weight training for your legs, upper body and core and cadence work. Building up your leg muscle will give you more power for your hills and accelarations, while upper body and core will keep you from getting worn out on long rides/races.

During the "off season" you shouldnt focus as much on intervals and speedwork, but more on increasing your spinning cadence and building leg muscle through weight training. Of course, racking up miles/minutes in the saddle will keep you fit aerobically, but you probably dont need to ride as much as you plan to get race ready. You should focus more on speedwork and intervals in your build phase/pre race season, since you'll have the strength and cadence to back up heavy training to build speed.
Good luck!

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Alexandra West

ric_stern/RST

to clarify in trained cyclists there is no evidence that weight training increases endurance cycling performance. there's quite a lot of threads on this in the training section of this forum, including one "sticky" thread. There is evidence that weight training would be detrimental to cycling performance.

There is also no evidence that core work prevents fatigue (in cycling) or that it would be useful (for cycling performance).

There is evidence that weights help increase *sprint* performance (but this would occur at the detriment of endurance performance).

There is evidence that in low fitness subjects that weights would increase endurance cycling performance (but so would any exercise).

ric

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Eden

Is there any reason to believe the effects of isolated leg and/or large gear exercises are any better than weight training? I would assume that they target the muscles you use for cycling better, but otherwise?

ric_stern/RST

They're likely going to be better than weight training for increasing cycling performance, however, i wouldn't recommend that you do either single leg drills or low cadence work (i'm guessing that's what you mean by large gear exercises) either, as neither of these are particularly effective at increasing power output/fitness.

What you should be looking to do is increase the power you can sustain at e.g., 1-hr TT effort, MAP (VO2max) and peak (sprint) power using a variety of training techniques (e.g., various intervals and continuous efforts) depending on your goals.

There are *some* reasons to do the above mentioned training sessions, but often these are just to relieve boredom when training indoors.

Ric

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tjodit

Wow, I'm surprised to see this. I am fairly new to cycling and am not "debating" you but that seems to go against everything I've read in Bicycling Magazine and online.

ric_stern/RST

which bit are you "debating" (for want of a better word) about: the weights, or the single leg drills/low cadence stuff?

Btw, i mention this a lot online (e.g., this forum, cyclingnews.com) and talk about "reverse periodisation" in this months Bicycling Magazine.

Ric

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awest1982

Ric:

Here is was EDEN was asking in her starting post:
"How about everyone else? - What do you all do for the winter to stay in shape/improve for next year?"

When I say weight training and cadence work, etc... that is what I do in the off-season/winter (I live in Wisconsin, no chance to get outdoors on the bike, btw) to stay in shape and improve. I have had good results with this, and the weight training has definitely improved my speed and endurance,and I wouldnt call myself a "low fitness subject", either. I agree that weight training during a set training phase would be detrimental, most likely since I never tried (cant force myself into a gym once the weather is nice), but I thought we were talking about training during the winter/off season. I find it hard to train consecutively all-year long for just "harder, faster, more" cycling, as that (for me) tends to be counter-productive to improving.

My belief is that a well deserved rest for a few months to work on other things will improve anyone's performance.

Then again, Ric, I didnt see a post from you regarding what you suggest for Eden, just posts discrediting (sometimes rightly so) what others say. Im not saying youre wrong here in your evaluation of my winter training, you probably have more experience than I do, but I want to know what you suggest.

Alex

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Alexandra West

ric_stern/RST

That's fine (if that's what you do). However, i was just replying to your blanket statement: "...The best advice I have for getting faster for racing is weight training for your legs, upper body and core and cadence work...." (etc).

If the weather is inclement then *any* training is better than no training, however, it would surely be more appropriate to train on an indoor (bike) trainer. (yes, i know they're boring, but i use one all winter).



as far as i'm aware we are talking about the off-season/winter. i have no idea why riding your bike year round would be counter productive (i've been doing it for the last 22 years). That sounds like you just need to alter your training regimen, if you are getting bored?



other than if you are bored senseless by riding or burnt out (i.e., psychological staleness) a "well deserved rest" would not improve performance. There is no evidence (other than e.g., your own anecdotal evidence) to support that a rest (even if you ended up cross training) of several months would improve performance (in your primary exercise modality).

The adaptations that occur in training are specific to the joint angles and velocities at which they occur, so it's important to be specific in your training to gain an increase in fitness (as e.g., an increase in performance in another exercise modality may not lead to an increase in performance in your primary exercise modality).



I can't recall what i wrote earlier in the thread. however, there's lots of advice on training from myself (and of course others) in the training/power/nutrition forums.



i would guess that i have more experience (although i have no idea on your qualifications) considering that i coach pro cyclists (male and female), amateurs, masters, recreational riders etc. and am a sports scientist. i'm also a physiological consultant for Polar and other bike companies.



in short i offered (see the first page) to give some specific advice on what to do over the winter, but no one seemed interested. Thus, if Eden wants my advice she (as is anyone else) is welcome to ask for it, and i'll answer.

If you want a general answer for what to do over the winter, this was also answered on the first page, along the lines of keep riding the bike and don't slack off. That advice still stands.

I'm unlikely to develop a complete training plan, unless formal coaching was asked for.

Ric

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Equus123

Ric,

In your posts above about weight lifting not improving cycling performance, I'm curious - What was the lifting workouts like for the subjects of that research? I have a background in lifting and I just can't accept that its not beneficial to a sport. Strength training is what you make of it and it can be taylored to fit your exact needs. I don't undertand how it can't be done to help you be a better cyclist as a whole.

What are your thoughts?

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ric_stern/RST

I'm short of time at present, but here is an article i wrote for cyclingnews.com http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern

plus if you look in the training section of the forum, you'll see lots of threads and stickies on this topic by myself, andy coggan, roadie scum, 2lap, smartty/rst, and lindsay about the lack of effect of weights for cycling and how it maybe detrimental.

ric

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awest1982

Ric, it does sound like you're an expert, given your resume. In my first post I noted that cadence work is good, as well as weight training and I never implied that anyone should not cycle at all...I ride indoors, with much enjoyment, 3 days a week for a total of only about 4hrs during winter/off season vs. the 10+ hrs per week or so during "season". (I'm not pro or anything). A well deserved rest, for me, is being able to cut down riding time and build muscle doing some things other than continually being in the "racing mode"...

I still strongly believe (despite my lack of scentific credence) that any type of recovery and off season is, and will always be, beneficial to an athlete. In 22 years you never took a recovery/off season?

And, should I assume the athletes that you train never use weight training to benefit their racing? They just ride, and ride, and ride? Is that the key to getting faster/better for an upcoming training season? Or is there simply "no evidence" to support what I believe...

Worth noting here also, this is simply what I believe, and what has worked for me. I am not a Cat 1 racer, but I immensely enjoy improving my bike splits.

Thanks for the replies Ric, interesting discussion.
Alex

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Alexandra West

Equus123

i read your article. very informative. thank you.


i guess my question is, then, do all types of weight lifting increase type 2 (fast twitch) muscle fibers? by types i mean lifting 10x3 @ 4RM, 5x4 @ 5RM, 3x10 @ 15 RM, 3x20 @ 25 RM. [sets/reps @ # rep max]. i understand that clearly the 10x3 and 5x4 are very type 2 dominant workouts. i guess i get unclear when it comes to lower weight, high reps done with slow concentric and eccentric movements. seems like it builds muscular endurance strength (if there is such a thing). do you get what i'm saying thought?

so with that, i would associate that way of lifting to benefit cycling. i can imagine not benefitting a 2 hour race as a whole, but sprinting, climbing hills, or short accelerations. i know that an entire race is not made of up only sprinting, hills, and accelerations and therefore in that sense, lifting does not benefit a cyclist. but isn't the whole picture defined by all the pieces? if lifting benefits these three things, all of which occur during a race, then doesn't it benefit a cyclist? is this line of thinking incorrect?

do you know if there's any benefit in injury prevention to people who strictly ride versus incorporating other training mediums such as lifting? i'm curious.

thanks Ric.

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Cyclists are like men. The more T.I.T.S. they have, the better off they are.

ric_stern/RST

just want to say this is a quick reply as i'm horribly busy...



there's nothing wrong with doing other sports, just that in some people (e.g., trained cyclists) other sports won't have a positive effect on their primary sport.



i have a week off the bike every year -- used to be at some point in october, but now at end of september (as this coincides with wedding anniversary and going on holiday)

i then have an easy few weeks (e.g., unstructured training), and thereafter swing back into intervals or quality endurance rides depending on my programme. my hours on the bike are sometimes reduced, but that's simply due to more inclement weather in the winter.



for the majority that is correct. however, some do weights for other reasons (e.g., aesthetics).



the key to getting faster (assuming you mean a sustained effort, rather than e.g., a 10-sec sprint) is to increase your LT (and TTpower) and MAP/VO2max, which are trained only in the primary modality.



Glad it's an interesting discussion (it is to me to). The key point i should add here is that it may be fine to do weights or whatever else training -- it's just that in trained endurance cyclists (e.g., those who race or could race) there isn't a benefit to your cycling and is likely detrimental.

Sorry for the brevity,
Ric

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